Ebay: the Napster of Greek insignia
 

I know this has probably been beaten to death already, but when you see a badge or anything else from your GLO being sold on ebay, there are only a few things you can actually do about it. Most headquarters don't have funds available to "rescue" these items.

1) If you have an ebay account, you can email ("send a question") to the seller advising them of copyright and trademark issues.

2) You can report the violation to ebay starting on this page.

3) You can report the violation to your headquarters to (hopefully) have a representative of HQ contact the seller directly.

4) If you are a representative of HQ (i.e. you have authority to act either as the copyright/trademark owner or an agent of the owner), you can enroll in ebay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program, information about which is available here.

Unfortunately, unless you're a rep from HQ and can actually take/enforce legal action against the seller, there's nothing else you can do about it. At that point, it's up to either ebay to terminate the auction (assuming you reported it), or to the seller to voluntarily terminate the auction (which they usually won't do).

In most cases, anything bearing the name, initials, coat of arms, badge, other insignia, or combination of any of these are protected by copyrights and/or trademarks and/or patents. The major problem is, even though ebay's administrators are fully aware that auctions of these types of items violate the rights of our fraternities and sororities, they continue to allow the auctions to continue. These people are worse than napster as far as I'm concerned! The most any of us can do is to get our HQs to enroll in ebay's VeRO program and have someone continually monitor the site to catch violations.

The following links might be of use to you...

For auctions involving copyright issues, click here.

For auctions involving trademarked issues, click here.

For auctions involving alumni directories or other contact lists, click here.

Thank you for posting this information. I think that a lot of people don't realize that it is a copyright/trademark issue as well. I think that the info will be put to good use!

I know this is a serious topic, but the title just cracked me up. I have been having a bummer night so I needed the laugh. Thanks! (plus, thanks for filling us in on all the legal stuff)

I understand the moral objection to selling badges on ebay. But how exactly is it a copyright infringement?

The answer is... it's not. That's why ebay has taken no action despite massive protest from the GLOs. Selling unauthorized reproductions of a GLO's mark or copyrighted material is indeed illegal. Selling the ORIGINAL mark or copyrighted material is perfectly legal. The owner of the mark was in theory already paid for their intellectual property when the item was sold to the original owner, and that individual item is now free and clear of any restrictions from that point forward.

If what you say is true, then it would be illegal to sell Coca-Cola pins because that bears the Coca-Cola trademark. And it would be illegal to sell ANY pre-owned book because that's copyrighted material.

Folks, you have to separate your moral outrage from the law.

wptw

Thanks, I think we know the difference already, though.

You're absolutely right that it's not illegal to sell a pin in the same way it's not illegal to sell a polar bear Coca Cola refrigerator.

The difference is that Coke loves having a market for its insignia, since they profit from it. As long as the original manufacturer pays the appropriate fees and royalty, they're happy. A big reselling market just increases the number of collectors. Fraternities and sororities, on the other hand, have no desire to have a collector's market. This doesn't make it illegal - this just means that you have to expect GLOs to try to stop the resale of pins.

However, no matter who has possession of a pin, or no matter how much they paid for it, the legal owner is the national fraternity. Every member when they get a pin signs a legal document to this effect, and however the pin strays into someone else'e hand, be it by a grandkid who doesn't know better or a deliberate thief, the fraternity can choose to reclaim their property at any time. Every pin, at least those made after a certain time, has markings on the back that the fraternity can use to trace it back to the original badge holder.

Question (for you Greeks trying to protect your pins, not collectors): Have any Nationals tried to reclaim their pins by the argument that pins are stolen property?

Are there any lawyers here who are qualified to comment on this?

Also, given that so many politicians are Greek, what is the possibility of introducing legislation that would protect badges from being resold?

shame on you, wptw
 

wtpw,

Not only are you completely and utterly WRONG here, but I know for a fact that not only are you a collector (possible seller) of things Greek, but that you also are in the habit of illegally trading esoteric rituals of fraternities and sororities. Don't bother denying this because I've seen your posts on other boards. As for your claim of legality, here are some things with which you should become quickly familiar about my fraternity...


From the US Patent and Trademark Office website :


Typed Drawing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Word Mark SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON
Goods and Services IC 200. US 200. G & S: Indicating membership in a national fraternal organization.
FIRST USE: 18560309.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560309
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76198084
Filing Date January 23, 2001
Owner (APPLICANT) Sigma Alpha Epsilon CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1865 Sheridan Road Evanston ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record Angelo J. Bufalino
Prior Registrations 0538680;0617624;2346560;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Coat of Arms]

Translations THE GREEK WORDS APPEARING IN THE MARK ARE "SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON"
Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: ESTABLISHMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF MEMBERSHIP IN A NATIONAL COLLEGIATE FRATERNITY.
FIRST USE: 18970300.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18970300
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 010501 031519 031525 050503 230501 240102 240907 241302 250125 280105
Serial Number 71670125
Filing Date July 16, 1954
Registration Number 0617623
Registration Date December 13, 1955
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Prior Registrations 0538680
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19960215
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Greek Initials of the name: Sigma Alpha Epsilon]

Goods and Services IC 014. US 028. G & S: FRATERNITY BADGES, LAPEL BUTTONS, SCARF, LAPEL, AND BREAST PINS, CUFF LINKS, TIE CLASPS, CHARMS, FINGER RINGS, BELT BUCKLES, AND ORNAMENTAL SHIELDS, ALL MADE OF PRECIOUS METAL.
FIRST USE: 19170301.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19170301
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 280105
Serial Number 71589597
Filing Date December 19, 1949
Registration Number 0538680
Registration Date February 27, 1951
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS
Prior Registrations 0240149
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010316.
Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20010316
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Badge]

Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: ESTABLISHMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF MEMBERSHIP IN A NATIONAL COLLEGIATE FRATERNITY.
FIRST USE: 18560300.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560300
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 020309 030101 051502 260109 260721 280105
Serial Number 71670126
Filing Date July 16, 1954
Registration Number 0617624
Registration Date December 13, 1955
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Prior Registrations 0538680
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19960207
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Greek Initials of the motto: Phi Alpha]

Word Mark A
Goods and Services IC 014. US 028. G & S: FRATERNITY BADGES AND LAPEL BUTTONS WHOLLY OR IN PART OF PRECIOUS METAL. FIRST USE: 18560000.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560000
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 280105
Serial Number 71302055
Filing Date May 31, 1930
Registration Number 0277162
Registration Date November 11, 1930
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 12C. SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010314.
Renewal 4TH RENEWAL 20010314
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the 2001 Fraternity Laws of Sigma Alpha Epsilon (National Laws)

TITLE XIII. General Rules.

Section 66. Insignia of Membership.

Subsection A. Membership Badge

1. A membership badge shall be loaned by the Fraternity to each initiate and, upon payment of such sum as may be fixed by the Supreme Council, to any member in good standing. In either case, the membership badge shall remain the property of the Fraternity and shall be worn only by members in good standing. For due cause communicated in writing to a member, the membership badge may be recalled by the Fraternity.

2. The use of the membership badge or its design upon any article of jewelry is forbidden, except by authorization of the Supreme Council.

Section 67. Official Jeweler(s). When the Fraternity has entered into contract with an official jeweler(s), it shall be unlawful for any member of the Fraternity to display or offer for sale in any Sigma Alpha Epsilon Chapter Collegiate house or elsewhere any badges, jewelry or other articles, bearing the crest, coat of arms or letters of the Fraternity, except as the representative of the official jeweler(s) with whom such contracts have been made.


So as you can see, wptw (and others), anything bearing any form of the insignia of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, singularly or in combination, in whole or in part, remains protected under trademark and copyright. The sale of any such items is therefore a clear violation of the rights of the Fraternity whether done by a member of the Fraternity or any third party, yourself included, except in such case as the seller is an authorized jeweler of the Fraternity which I would hazard a guess that you are not. The Sigma Alpha Epsilon Headquarters made its official position on this quite clear in the Fall 2001 edition of The Record (our quarterly publication). Find a copy and read it for yourself. Just so you know, any violation of the Fraternity's rights that gets reported to the Fraternity Service Center is immediately forwarded to the Fraternity's General Counsel. His name is Frank Ginocchio and he may be reached at fginocchio@sae.net, or by phone at 800-233-1856, X 214. Go ahead and ask him if he minds you or anyone else selling the Fraternity's property without authorization. If you feel so justified in your position, then I'll expect a transcript of your conversation with him posted here shortly. If you're too afraid to talk to the Fraternity's chief lawyer, then it's probably a good sign that what you're doing is illegal (hint: it is). Good luck!

Agreed. That's what I meant by separating the legal issue from the moral issue.


Simply not true. The badge is given in consideration of some kind of fee. Call it a "lifelong lease" if you want, but I bought my pin, I own my pin, and I'll do whatever I please with my pin. The burden to prove otherwise is on the GLO, and so far no group has come close to proving it (and not for lack of trying either).


I didn't. And I'm curious to see what (if anything) the members who belong to GLOs with lifelong lease policies signed. I seriously doubt it is a legal document. And even if it is, how does this apply to badges being sold on ebay which for the most part are from the early 20th century? You're telling me these GLOs have filing cabinets brimming with notarized lifelong lease documents from the 1920s?


Again, not true. A great many of the more modern GLO badges are not engraved or marked at all except for the manufacturer's trademark and perhaps gold content (much to the collector's dismay since we always try to find out how old they are).


This is outrageous! I buy my badge in 1930, tomorrow I die and my children inherit my estate. They decide to sell off some of my personal items, and 70 years later you're going to tell them they STOLE this pin? Ludicrous.


I'm not even getting into the moral issue. I'm just trying (unsuccessfully as always) to make people see past their rage so they can put together a realistic and effective action plan. These "my GLO owns the badge you're selling" emails are a huge joke among dealers.

wptw

SAEactive: You could have saved yourself a lot of cutting and pasting. I don't dispute that the SAE badge is protected property under copyright law. I am saying that selling an original mark (not a reproduction) is not in violation of that protection. There's a difference.

Bottom line is, if you're right and I'm wrong, then at some point in the last 4 years since GLOs first started going crazy over badges on ebay, SOMEONE would have successfully gotten them removed as a matter of policy. Ebay has a lot of lawyers, and they've looked at this carefully. The GLOs just don't have a legal leg to stand on. That's a fact.


Oh no! I've been outed! The horror!

Yup, I'm a collector. I've sold a few badges on ebay and I've bought hundreds. As for illegally trading rituals, that I deny. But I certainly have acquired GLO rituals and related materials for my personal use and study. And I would never reveal any of it publicly out of respect for the individual groups and the greek system as a whole. Nothing illegal about that.

And since we're on the subject, better get your head on straight and figure out who your real enemy is. While you're flexing your muscles at me, there's a crazy self-proclaimed minister out there who DOES intend to reveal as much ritual information as he can get his hands on. And SAE was one of the first rituals he received, as you probably know if you've spent any time at that other message board.

wptw

I know exactly whom you're referring to. That individual was booted off of greekchat quite a while ago. I'm not worried about his petty crusade of self-righteousness.

To address you comment, there is NO difference in selling an original vs selling a reproduction. The design is what's copyrighted and trademarked, not just the physical object. Selling anything bearing the design, whether original or not, is still a violation of copyright and/or trademark.

The problem is, most national headquarters don't exactly have huge numbers of people working in their offices. Since their primary concern is the proper administration of the Fraternity's affiairs, and not tracking down some wannabe who's trying to make a buck off of Fraternity property, this sort of thing usually gets put on the back burner. That isn't to say that nothing can be done. If you'll notice here, you'll see that the Delta Phi Fraternity has taken a proactive step in removing auctions from ebay that violate their rights. It takes time for a Fraternity Office to pursue such matters, time some offices simply can't afford to spend -- BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL!!! That's the point.

The fee has zero to do with it. I pay for my apartment - can I go to a court of law and prove I own it? No, because I have signed a contract stating that I am a renter, etc. I have known members who have been required to give back their pin by a court of law upon losing their membership, and I would be interested to hear of evidence to the contrary.

It's quite possible this is a new policy. I know I signed something to this effect in 1995. However, national fratenities do keep a copy of all these legal documents (they're signed, they're legal) for many purposes. You'd better believe they have bulging files.

Most of the badges I see on eBay are not from the early 20th century, more like the middle of it. It is entirely possible that such documents were not being signed in the time frame some of these badges are from. That doesn't mean that some aren't recent enough to have them. And as you don't even believe such documents exist, I'm sure you don't bother to verify whether the badge in question is protected by one or not.

Speaking for my own sorority, each badge has a unique badge number. Although the member's name and chapter are no longer engraved, they each have a unique member number on the back.

If I buy a stereo from you and it turns out to be stolen, I still have to return the property. It doesn't matter whether I knew it was stolen or not. And the same applies to my grandkids - even if they didn't intend to steal my badge, they sure did. But most of us wouldn't mind if they simply kept it as a memory of us. It's when it becomes just a pretty toy to be sold that we object.

You may find us owners a joke, but we find you dealers beyond joking. It's pathetic to collect the pins of an organization you don't belong to. I can't even begin to imagine wanting such a thing. We are even more sickened by Greeks who feel they have a right to others' badges.

My point is - if we don't have the law on our side yet, we plan to get it there.

Re: shame on you, wptw
 

I'll be waiting for details of that conversation...

That tells me nothing. OK, I am making it my official position that I own the Island of Guam. What, you mean I still don’t own it? But I made it my official position!

You still have to substantiate illegal use of the mark. The Delta Phi example you cite also tells me nothing unless they have successfully used this to stop a badge auction. This action was taken to prohibit the sale of unauthorized producers putting the Delta Phi mark on their product – decals, T-shirts, pocketwatches, etc. It still does not apply to a badge which is an original item, legally produced by an authorized entity and legally sold to a member.

But here’s a serious question: I am sure Mr. Ginocchio is a fine attorney. Why has he not been successful in removing all the SAE badges from ebay? SAE badges are one of the most commonly listed on ebay (not surprising based on membershipnumbers), appearing at a rate of 2 per week! If I’m so wrong about this, where is the progress on this front after FOUR YEARS?


OK, Columbo. You wait there and I'll get that right over to you. Seriously, does this high testosterone posturing really work on anyone?

wptw

Then I’d guess you are a Pi Phi. That’s one of very few groups who do this.

But you’ve got to PROVE the stereo was stolen. Hard to do when I’ve got the receipt that says I paid for it.

I’m not a dealer. Pay attention. I am a collector and a member of an NIC fraternity.

You say tomayto. I say tomahto. Diverse opinions are one of the great things about the greek community. That is, unless you subscribe to the stereotype that we all think, dress and act alike.

That’s an admirable goal. If GLOs and GLO members start thinking and acting pragmatically and rationally on this issue, then you may indeed. Right now, you're just spinning your wheels.

wptw

Nope. From what you've said up until now I would have assumed you knew a lot about Greek life. But one look at my scren name should tell you what group I'm in.

It's not at all difficult to prove a stereo is stolen! Electronics, like many expensive items, have unique serial numbers. If the other kept his/her warranty information, that's that. Of course, I will admit that this is dependent on the thief not filing it off. And I don't mean to suggest the purchaser is punished; they ought to be compensated for their money, which doesn't necessarily happen.

I did say, and I do believe, that there is something wrong in collecting other's pins. Nevertheless, I don't think this should be an ad hominem argument. You probably could care less if I like you personally, and it doesn't change the validity of anyone's arguments.

I think Greeks have been "spinning their wheels" on this because it has only recently become a big issue. Until eBay and the WWW came along, collecting was more difficult. And only now are Greeks really aware of how many of their badges are out there. That's why they are requiring members to sign that the badge is not their property, printing awareness-raising articles in their magazines, and the like. Greeks have a lot of issues facing them and for a fraternity fighting to keep its insurance it may not be the most important one. But there are a lot of Greeks out there, and I believe that they will get somewhere eventually.

OK, Alpha Xi Delta then. None of my AZD badges have a member number on them. Most of the older ones are engraved with the owner's name though.

Can anyone post the actual text from one these lifelong lease agreements? I've heard many paraphrased synopses, but I have never seen the actual wording. My guess is that these documents are just signed affirmations of GLO policy, and not a legal and binding lease agreement. If anyone has the actual text to prove otherwise, please do.

Excellent point. GLOs have a LOT of issues facing them: declining membership, chapter house rapes, dead pledges, racism, anti-greek sentiment on the rise, lawsuits, charters being pulled, rituals being revealed on the internet. And what are you spending your BTUs on? Badges on ebay!

What's that old expression about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?


wptw

You have no idea what else I'm spending my money on ... I could be buying crack or donating thousands of dollars to my nationals for. I wouldn't make too many assumptions!

Likewise, I can make a pretty educated guess that as a collector you spend money on badges. Should I therefore assume you aren't giving anything to the Greek community? I'm tempted to, but that would be pretty judgmental of me.

And most GLOs do not in fact have badge buyback funds. That is not what they are spending their money on.

If I still had a copy of my membership agreement, it would be buried in a box somewhere. Sorry I don't have it handy to whip out.

lease agreement
 

Response:



When a man is initiated into Sigma Alpha Epsilon, he promises to be governed by the Fraternity's National Laws, among other documents. My membership badge always has been and always shall be the property of the Fraternity. The initiation fee I paid was what was considered to be a reasonable sum for the privilege of wearing the badge for my lifetime. When I die, my badge must be either buried with me or sent back to National for archiving - under no circumstances is it to be sold. SAE is not the only GLO to have this kind of rule and I guarantee yours does too. All you have to do is ask your HQ to confirm it.

Maybe I'm being completely unreasonable, but what's the problem with buying a used badge and wearing it? I bought myself a new one, as most new iniatiates do, but, I think it would be kind of cool in a way to wear someone else's badge, because you'll be carrying their story with you. Has anyone ever thought of it in that way?

Sweetums, to a point i agree with you. I think that an AGD badge is better to be wornby me than thrown in a box or a case for some jewlery collector to stare it. But, it is the property of the fraternity first and foremost. If I am not mistaken, I think that at least AGD, cannot wear another members badge unless it is consented. So, if she would be chapter grand by now, do you just assume that she would be happy that an active sister had it b/c it was being put to use, or would she want it to be given back to the IHQ? It's quite a question. BTW, Alpha Gamma Delta pins and badges are OWNED by AGD. We are simply allowed to use them, we have to ask if we want to add pearls! So, I doubt it is legal for our pins to be sold. We are told that if we ever see a pin or badge on e-bay, that we notify them of it immediately.

continued arrogance of collectors
 

I just wanted to share with ya'll something rather interesting that I found on ebay. If you actually read through the text - not just look at the number of pins and asking price! - you will find arrogance beyond belief. I personally was slightly offended by the "fraternity for women comment" and was amused by the "I don't care who the actual owner is, I just want my money back" attitude! :)

Fraternally,

Sarah

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1076476613

Here's another listing - this guy must be clearing out his collection!

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1076473156

God morning all,

SAEalum: While very interesting, what you've posted is not a legal lease agreement. It is simply a statement of GLO policy, just as I thought. You may or may not have signed this, but it still does not constitute a lease agremeent which would be binding upon your heirs or assigns.

Can anyone post the text from one of these "lifelong lease agreements", or are they all just a statement of GLO policy as SAEalum posted?

wptw

As a ritual advisor for my chapter and a devoted alumna of my GLO, I am absolutely sickened by the fact that you have Greek organizations' secret rituals in your possession. The very idea of someone other than a Delta Zeta being in possession of our sacred ritual is completely revolting to me, and my stomach churns at the thought of someone going through our secret ceremonies as if they are nothing more than interesting reading material -- a way to kill time before dinner.

Just because you say you would never reveal the rituals publicly, wptw, does not justify the fact that you have them in your possession and are "studying" them for "personal use." They aren't public textbooks, and they are certainly not intended to be Cliff Notes for your own personal course in GLO history! :eek: Greek rituals contain a wealth of meaning for their individual organizations, but for you they serve only as a means of satisfying selfish curiosity.

I will not be making any further comments on this issue, and I won't be returning to this thread. I've reached my limit as to the amount of disrespect I can tolerate this week.

...ya don't need to be a lawyer to figure this out...
 

My badge was the property of SAE the day I was initiated. My badge is still the property of SAE today. My badge will remain the property of SAE when I die. The day after I die, my badge will still be the property of SAE, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, ad nauseum. I haven't purchased it from SAE because SAE hasn't sold it to me. SAE loaned it to me, which means, of course, that I have it on a :eek: lease. Profound, no? :rolleyes:

I certainly don't expect someone who's in the habit of trading/buying/selling badges on ebay and/or elsewhere to agree with me. Obviously they feel their actions are justified, or else they know they're wrong and are just plain malicious. Either way, there's probably not much, if anything, I can personally do about it. You see, it doesn't matter whether I personally try to sell "my" badge or whether someone else (eg. inheriter of my estate) tries to do the same. Either way, the badge being sold is still the property of the Fraternity, not mine, nor anyone else's. Selling someone else's property, especially without authorization (you're not an official jeweler last time I checked), is .... what's that word again? ... oh yeah, ILLEGAL !!! . What more do you need to know?

Well dzrose, just in case you decide to come back...

You could not be more wrong. You could try. But you would not be successful.

This has been a serious field of study for me for a long time, and I am by no means the first to do this. You may know that several GLOs voluntarily participated in a similar research project in the 1970s by contributing their ritual manuals to a graduate student at the University of Mississippi.

Once again your collective feathers are so ruffled that you miss what's important. There are a handful of people who study rituals for their historical significance and would never dream of mishandling this information (some of them are regulars on Greekchat I might add), and then there are hundreds of people scouring the planet every day for any ritual secrets that they can publicly expose. And who do you direct your anger toward? Ridiculous!

I didn't get on this board and start crowing about having rituals. Someone else brought it up because he mistakenly thought that "outing" me would scare me away. Anyway, I won't spend the time to argue it with you since it won't change your mind. You made your mind up about me weeks ago during the badge arguments.

wptw

What I need to know is the same as what I needed to know yesterday...

Where is this lease agreement I keep hearing about? So far no one has posted it. Do they exist or not?

wptw

I thought the comment about "they're sororities, not fraternities" was particularly funny. Most women's groups are fraternities by name because they were created before the word "sorority" was coined. So, yeah, a group's legal name is it's name, whether he likes it or not ... but who the heck cares? I don't know of any Greek woman who gets offended by the term "sorority."

Re: Re: continued arrogance of collectors
 

Apparently no one stupid enough has found the auction yet. Zero bids so far (at least as of the time this post is made). You have to wonder though... when you were initiated, how much did you really have to pay for your badge (or to replace it if you lose it)? The minimum bid would be an average of $138.89 per badge and if you "buy it now for only $6K", you'd be paying $333.33 per badge. I can get a 10K gold badge for myself for less than a fourth of that! Good grief! :rolleyes:

My sorority (Delta Zeta) has rules similar to your fraternity, SAEactive--our badges are the property of the sorority and are loaned to us for our lifetime use as members in good standing. When you sign your membership card, is that not an agreement to abide by the rules of the organization (one of which is that badges are property of the sorority)? For us, I think it is.

I am not a Pi Phi, and my badge has my initials, the date I was initiated, and the chapter I was initiated in engraved on the back.

I used to think that having a secret ritual was sort of hokey, but a lot of things have happened recently that made me realise how much I value my sorority and now it makes me a little angry to hear that someone who is not my sister might have read our ritual. I don't care if you are just using them for scholarly purposes, to me that seems a little disrespectful. Well, more than a little, actually. It seems like a fellow Greek should understand that.

And to everyone, it's no use arguing on this topic. There's always going to be some cheeky smart-arse out there who has to have the last word and dismisses valid points anyone else makes in order to justify the things they do. We'll never be able to give them enough "proof" that our badges shouldn't be treated like *collectibles*.

our $75 initation fee includes badge, shingle, and membership card. :)

Yes, I think it certainly is binding ON YOU. I am trying to figure out whether it is binding on your assigns or heirs - the people who are selling these pins on ebay.

That's a narrow opinion. There are more than a few people that consider this type of study to be very valuable to the greek system as a whole. I'm not some hack trolling message boards. I'm a serious researcher and historian, and I've been doing this for years. No point trying to explain it here though. Everyone is in MINE MINE MINE mode and your minds are closed off. I'm happy to talk privately with anyone who is seriously interested in why people choose to study rituals.

"Cheeky" - I like that. I'm not justifying anything. I sleep just fine at night. To you, maybe being greek is just about friendships and socializing and appreciating your own history. Fine. For me, it's all that plus really trying to understand what was in the hearts of those young men and women that founded our groups all those years ago (not about risk management bureaucrats writing policy in some HQ building somewhere). I have the greatest appreciation for fraternities and sororites, and that is what drives me. But I'll never make you believe that, so ultimately you've said it best - "it's no use arguing about this subject".

wptw

Skidmarks (the collector selling the lot of badges on Ebay) is a regular buyer and seller of badges. What a name :rolleyes:

I was in a band called the skidmarks. I hope that its not the drummer.