stopping pins on ebay?
 

OK, I know this is something that has been discussed on here before, but I was wondering - has anyone (or any GLO) tried to do something about it?

We all know eBay sells Greek pins, and most of us don't like that. Now, eBay will sell almost anything, but only some of what they won't sell is illegal (drugs). They also refuse to sell URLs, plants and seeds, surveillance equipment, and travel, all of which I'm pretty sure are legal. They also list some things as "questionable" or "potentially infringing."
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-items.html

Badges are kind of like those CDs marked "not for commercial sale" (except much more meaningful). We all know you can get those at used CD stores, much as you can get badges at pawn shops. But the big chains don't sell them because they don't want to be liable and present a bigger, fatter target. EBay is the same way - a big, fat target. We know that selling badges isn't illegal, but it seems to me that it is questionable. If ebay stops selling them, there goes one big market for collectors.

Did you know that eBay ranks badges as "Collectibles:Historical Memorabilia:Fraternal Groups:Fraternity, Sorority"? They are NOT collectibles. Sure, people collect all kinds of things, but badges are not collectibles in the sense that china dolls, Longaberger baskets, or even old Barbies are. Mattel does not object to the resale of old Barbies!

So - I know some sororities have formed funds to buy their badges back, but have any groups tried to pressure eBay into disallowing badges or into at least changing their category?

You've posed an excellent question! I've wondered about that myself. Anyone out there know?

I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I think I heard or read somewhere that GLO's have tried to stop the sales. It went something like a GLO contacted the people at ebay and explained their position on the pins. (Being that the pins were meant to be sent back to exec. offices, etc) However, ebay doesn't really see it that way, and they will not stop people from selling the pins.

It's been a while since I saw that, and I'm not sure where it was.

Perhaps we should start a rumor that all Greek badges have marijuana seeds implanted in them. ;)

LOL 33girl! There's a thought...

I'm currently the highest bidder for my stuff on ebay. Of course the one thing is a bunch of shirts and the other is a picture. That should have been left alone fifty years ago grrrr

It will not happen!:)

Can't NPC and IFC take out a combined lawsuit against Ebay? It's stated very clearly in New Member Manuals that Badges are the property of that Greek Organization.

Well, I would think that a lawsuit would have to be brought against the person listing the pin. If that's the case, it isn't likely to happen.

Put yourself in the other persons shoes though for a minute. Some one's old crazy aunt dies and since he is the only one not attached to her, he can go through her things without breaking down. Maybe he is only related distantly or by marriage or distantly by marriage. Not all badges are obivious to "outsiders" He doesn't know what to do with it. So he puts it on ebay. I don't think the people selling them should be to blame, they are trying to get rid of it.

I totally agree with that point. Much as my pin means to me, I wouldn't want to see it go to the wrong hands. However, if I were not in a GLO and, say, obtained a pin through an estate sale or something like that, I would have no idea what to do with it, other than sell it. From what I have seen, most of the people who put pins/badges on ebay have gotten them through estate sales. It doesn't have the meaning to them, and what else are they going to do? Hold on to it? No.
What I can't understand is how someone could put his or her own pin on ebay. I've seen that, too. Only once that I can think of, but still...

I have bought a person's pin from them (my own sorority, of course), but I do agree that it's generally not the seller who has any idea what they're doing. I'm not suggesting punishing them. Lots of people probably try to sell stuff that eBay then tells them is against the rules. I'm suggesting that eBay itself ought to be encouraged to put pins in that prohibited category.

But pins do fall in the bad taste/copyright gray areas, not the plain illegal area. I maybe have signed a legal contract that states I do not own my pin, but my great grand-kids haven't.

But if the lawsuit were against Ebay, Ebay would have to tell sellers "hey, that is actually the property of the Greek Organization." And if it is a case of a distant relative or someone who wouldn't know better, then they would find out. However, I think a lot of times people do contact the seller and the seller is like "too bad for you" and continues with the sale. If they couldn't sell them on Ebay, many might find some other way to sell it, but some might actually return them.

very strong arguement for placing instructions on the propal disposal of your fraternity/sorority regaila in your will. the reason why pins & the like end up on ebay is because the family doesn't know what to do with it. they weren't members so they don' t know. you have to tell them.

Pins on ebay...
 

After speaking with a wide number of people - other Greeks (AXIDelta, KKG, A-Phi, SigK...) , Ebay, sellers and my own EO (I'm an Alpha Phi) - it is a frustrating situation all the way around...

To put it simply - ther is NOTHING to be done...These pins come to people and they can do what they please with them. Sell then, give them away or in many cases I am told (Pawn Shops) they are melted down for scrap metal or the stones...

I have gotten into very nice and VERY HEATED discussions wth individuals about this and find it annoying and sad...Collectors like them because they are unique and small...They have no idea what they mean to the particular groups...

There are no grounds for a lawsuit aganst ebay or the sellers. There is one collector on ebay who has a great deal of money and NO ONE can outbid him on pins...he has collected many PanHel pins as well as one particular sorority...The collector can be very nice and then can be mean about it...

I wish there was more that could be done, but other than individuals buying them and getting them back to their Greek groups, hands are tied...

It would be wonderful to have $$$$ to purchase these, but many, if not all groups are not in the position to do so...

Consider a couple of the Alpha Phi pins recently up for auction...2 separate, unique and very highly unique/sought after pins sold for a total of $2900...Someone had the money to pay that and they got them...

Sorry to be such a downer about it, but I've accepted that there isn't much to be done...Yes, it is a VERY good idea to let a family memeber know what to do with your pin when you pass on...

Just keep bidding and hopefully they'll get back to the right owners...:confused: :(

When this discussion had popped up earlier, someone said that they have the instructions on what to do with their pin in a tragic evet already in the pin box. Although a tad depressing, I think this is one of the best ideas I've heard. Even though nothing may happen to you for years, at least you know that your pin will be safe. I know a lot of us young 'ums do not have wills yet, and might not plan on it for years, but this is a simple thing we can do.

As for pins on ebay, my GLO does not endorse purchasing or trying to "outbid" others on ebay. We have a group that is trying to work with the sellers to explan to them the significance these pins have to us since some sellers are not aware. But please be careful about approaching these sellers, they can be mean, and not very understanding, and if you say the wrong thing the wrong way, it may be cause for legal action.

New Thought
 

Yeah it sucks people who aren't members have badges, but...
they do not know what they mean. If if some how they have accquired part of the ritual, they can't know the emotional meaning. I would have a problem with someone who is not in Theta Chi wearing our badge, but as for actual possesion. I don't know. Even though I doubt my international fraternity will ever fold, it is kind of comforting knowing that some will have our emblem, and that it will "survive."

Re: Pins on ebay...
 

One suggestion that I can make is to send the pin back to your organization yourself. I have just gone through the historical badges at AOII and there were actually a number of them that were sent back before the person's death so that she knew that the badge would go back to AOII. That's what I'm planning on doing with my badge. There were even notes on some of them that if a granddaughter becomes an AOII that the badge is reserved for her.

This way you know where your badge is going and your family does not have to worry about what to do with it, etc.

Sarah

I've seen actual pledge books and what not on sale on EBAY...I think they should regulate that as well, because no one should be subjected to their organization's secrets and rituals getting out.

I don't know about that. I know there is nothing secret in my pledge manual. When I was a new member, a gal down the hall who was a Phi Mu and I spent one morning sitting around looking at each other's books, and I know I checked out now-ex's Theta Chi pledge manual. We were still new at this Greek life thing and it was fun to see how the other groups were similar and different. The thing is, at least in NPC groups, nothing a pledge/new member learns is secret - it's all stuff anyone could learn (although why would they bother?). Even after you are initiated, nothing secret is written down.

Of course, if anyone DOES have anything secret in their pledge manual, I would totally agree that it should be kept secret and regulated!

Very interesting Fuzzy.. but see that's the difference between NPHC org's and NPC orgs. Our handbooks, 'pledge manuals', etc etc.. whatever you want to call them, are EXCLUSIVE to our own organizations... they contain things that are different from org. to org., and are secrets.

While NPHC and NPC overlap in lots of ways, we also differ in lots of ways, it's what makes us unique.

I can tell you that I would never be able to share my secrets with anyone else who is not in my org.

Just some insight for you.

Understand, I'm not SUPPORTING the idea of selling pledge manuals, but for those that are non-secret, I think it is going to be a heck of a lot harder to stop than it is to stop badge-selling (which is challenging enough). I'd rather someone have my pledge manual than my badge, if I had to choose.

Now, for manuals that are secret, like Blue Ambition said the NPHC ones are, that is a TOTALLY different story. I mean, I never would have looked in the Phi Mu or Theta Chi manual if the person who owned it hadn't give me the OK - and I wouldn't dream of trying to find out another group's secrets.

The answer to your question has been posted before...
 

Check out the following thread:

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...threadid=15056

That thread turned into a war about whether pin selling was right ... I haven't really seen an answer yet as to whether the fraternities and sororities have looked into strengthening their legal rights or just worried about it. Obviously pin selling isn't illegal or it wouldn't happen on eBay - they make a policy of not selling anything that breaks the law (getting sued doesn't make for profits). My question is more - has anyone tried to get legislation of any kind enacted?

And I'm guessing the answer is no, otherwise someone would have mentioned it by now.

The first post in that thread (mine) lists all of the available options short of bidding on a pin yourself. I intended the thread to be a source of information to those who'd rather not have their organization's stuff sold on ebay - someone ELSE turned it into a flame war.

About the pledge manual issue, no, I do not think they should be sold on Ebay. But, unless your organization publishes your books themselves, what's in them isn't a secret. These books are published by publishing companies, who in most cases have no exclusive association with a certain GLO. None of the information in my book is a secret, although I was told to not let anyone see it. Our ritual is NEVER written down. It is passed down ONLY by word of mouth. The secret meanings of symbols, etc. are included only in one book, our ritual ceremony book, which is closely guarded and locked up with our ritual items. Everyone does not get a copy of this, that would be stupid, and asking for someone to let the word out.

Oh, I know - it was a pin buyer, and I'm afraid I was stupid enough to keep arguing with him, which isn't a winnable fight. :( I know you started the thread, and I know you aren't responsible for what it turned into.

Unfortunately, as long as there's a market out there for it, people will find some way of selling it. If not on ebay, then on another service..

There are also some major sellers/resellers of badges... One guy in particular who had posted one of my fraternity's pins had something to the tune of 9,000 auctions to his credit. These are people only interested in the investment potential...

Funny, I worked 3 years as a colonist and am finally getting a badge. It's going to be buried with me. If everyone else had the same attitude they'd become much more difficult to collect =)

LHT,
Kevin

To answer the original question, I know NPC groups have tried to stop the sale of pins on ebay, and I'm sure they are not the only ones.
However, ebay has said there is nothing they can do to prevent the sales. I haven't checked the list to see what is not allowed to be listed on ebay, but I'm guessing they're all things that have restricted sales (ie, ammunition), are protected by copyright (to avoid piracy), or are illegal.
In the case of pins and badges or the like, as far as ebay is concerned, these items are the personal property of the sellers, and they have the right to do as they see fit.

ebay and Fraternity / Sorority pins
 

deltaphi94....

You are correct...The pins are of personal property and sellers may do what they wish.

Sad isn't it...but as I told someone at A-Phi Eo's, the meaning and sentimentality of the pin will belong to the member, the seller or in some cases the buyer, will never have that joy. And in those cases, we are the winners.

I did find an Alpha Phi pin in an antique store and am waiting for the right person and moment to give it away!!!

Peace to all.

Yeah. That gives me the strong urge to kick something. It's one thing when someone gets a badge and they're clueless as to what to do with it, but that's entirely another. I don't even go looking for pins on Ebay anymore, it just stirs up violent sickish feelings inside me.

Grrrr. But anyway...

Here's a just-for-interesting-conversation on this topic: WHY are pins such a popular item to collect? They don't appreciate in face value...well maybe a little, but I know that the worth of the amount of gold in my one-inch badge isn't going to go through the roof anytime soon, they don't mean anything to the collectors (not the way we see it as fraternity and sorority members, anyway)...what's the appeal? And if GLO's are no longer going to pan out large amounts of money to retrieve badges, do the pins only appreciate in value to other collectors? Maybe they go around in a giant Ebay circle?

Definitely time for me to go to bed.

Sorry SAEActive, but I don't see any flames in that other thread. I do see a disagreement that was [for the most part] logically argued on both sides. It is my observation these last few months that GC as a community does not handle dissenting opinions very well. That's unfortunate because dissent is often an excellent catalyst for learning and growth. Oh well.

By the way, I wasn't arguing the right and wrong of pin collecting in that other thread. SAEActive claimed that selling pins was illegal and I disagreed. End of story. FuzzieAlum just summed up my whole point from that other thread in one sentence:
"Obviously pin selling isn't illegal or it wouldn't happen on eBay - they make a policy of not selling anything that breaks the law (getting sued doesn't make for profits). "

Good question. Remember that the overwhelming majority of collectors are fraternity and sorority members themselves (I would estimate more than 95%). So in fact they DO mean something to us. Sure, they can't mean the same things that they would mean to an initiated member of that group, but they still represent a tradition and history that we appreciate and enjoy. That's the appeal. Value to a collector is based mainly on age and rarity and historical significance - not really on gold or gem content.

wptw

wptw
 

I have love for my Badge Only, I would love to have a Badge and New Member Button from each Fraternity/Soroity that could be placed in my Chapter House to Show Respect to all Greek Organizations! In a Prominent Place!

I know LXA International Has a Badge and Button from each Local that they associated with! There are 2 sets of mine, The Ones I have and the Ones that International has!

These are on Display at Head Quarters!

Hell If I tried to Get one of each, I would be a lot poorer than I am now!:)

Not true!!! The major reason why I put up that post about ebay in the first place was the fact that they allowed an alumni directory of my fraternity to be sold on their site. Their policies explicitly forbid items to be sold which include personal contact information, etc. The directory was the 2001 edition just published this fall! I reported it both to ebay and to SAE HQ. I don't think that HQ had enough time to do anything about it since the auction only lasted a week to begin with. Ebay not only didn't do jack about an auction that CLEARLY violated their OWN policies, they DIDN'T EVEN RESPOND TO MY COMPLAINT!!! I'm STILL waiting to hear from them about it! Bottom line: just because it happens, doesn't make it legal!

I'm sorry that happened. No one's address should be out there for sale! However, one problem with eBay is that is relies on self-policing - someone has to report an item, and then they may take their own poky time to do something about it. I am allowed to post a liver for sale, and someone has to tell eBay it's there before my auction will get shut down. eBay doesn't employ people to review each sale item. (But I'm sure if I tried to sell a liver, eBay would work more quickly to take it off since that's high-profile.) But it sounds as if they goofed up on this one - they should have taken that down as soon as you reported it.

This is a persistent problem I've seen with other items eBay has banned that aren't quite as mediagenic as sales of body parts. Even once you convince eBay that they really oughtn't sell something, the concerned citizens still have to spend THEIR time patrolling eBay to make sure no one tries to sell it anyway. This, as far as I am concerned, should be eBay's job, not the users' job!