Dealing with mean PNM's
 

Hey all!

I'm a member of an NPC, and we're gearing up for a no frills fall formal.

In years past we've been struggling a little, but last year we had a really large pledge class, and have been very active on campus. Yay come back.

Our former advisor (who has been replaced) had not been allowing us to cut anyone, because we were not making quota. She seemed more interested in making quota than about having good sisters, and it really hurt us more than did any good. We acquired a reputation for "taking anyone" while she was our advisor and have had to deal with some pretty nasty girls during recruitment because they don't want to be asked back to our house.

For instance -- texting while you're talking to them, being intentionally mean to sisters, ignoring you to stare at a wall, crying on pref night because they didn't get preffed anywhere else...

How do you deal with these situations with poise? Is there any way to possibly turn these around?

Thanks <3

If girls are behaving inappropriately during recruitment, tell the rho chis or the Greek Life advisor so they can be removed from the process. Why do girls even have phones on them during rush anyway? While you're dealing with them at the moment, the best strategy is just to be as nice as can be and ignore their meanness.

Are the girls in the chapter now (some of whom I'm guessing are people you weren't allowed to cut) proud and happy to be there, or are they just there because it's better than not being Greek at all?

When your chapter grows you are going to have lots more different girls who like lots more different PNMs. Be sure that you're letting yourselves grow and be happy with the new 'you."

If girls are crying at pref, try to take them aside and calm them down. The last thing you want is for them to be a buzzkill to the girls who really DO want to be there. Pair them with a sister who maybe also put you guys as last choice on her pref card and loves it now. Don't put them near gung ho sister who has loved your chapter from the first second because they don't need that kind of pressure.

Hi thecon,

What I'm reading is that you are frustrated with the way that RFM is working for your chapter. It sounds like your past advisor was following the carry figures provided to fer from the RFM specialist correctly and accurately. If your chapter has continually struggled during formal recruitment, it's likely that the number of people that have to be invited back each round don't allow for many releases, which is leaving you with the impression that your advisor is forcing you to invite back these women. Remember that this isn't the fault of the advisor. She's following policies that she has been given.

RFM is formatted in a way to give weaker recruiting chapters the best chance of making quota. This means having a larger pool of PNMs than some/ most/ all of the other chapters at each round. In order to intentionally release more women than figures provide, it's generally a conversation and gaining permission from high up people in your organization on a national/ international level, and not a choice being made by your former advisor.

Perhaps your chapter can reach out for resources for your recruitment to be as prepared as possible in advance. Just a year or two of a really strong recruitment can make all the difference.

Good Luck! I agree with 33girl, make sure to tell the FSA if women are being this rude, no one needs that negativity. Also, kill them with kindness.

I'd advise you to spend more time on how to have quality conversations with the 99% of PNMs who are not mean and rude.

I agree with 33girl that PNMs should not have their phones with them during recruitment. If this isn't a rule your Panhellenic has adopted and enforces, you should have your Panhel delegate work on making it one. We can't even have watches on us at Clemson because we might be inclined to look at them.

Same thing goes for rude PNMs-if a girl is deliberately rude either during a party or outside of one about another PNM, a chapter, an active sister, whatever, she can be removed from recruitment. There should be no place for that during recruitment.

33girl,

Thanks! That's a good idea. I know we had at least one crying girl at pref last year, and the sister who was with her had no idea what to do and got really flustered herself, because said PNM kept talking about how she didn't want to be there, thought she would have gotten a bid at ABC/XYZ, etc.

As for my current sisters-- for the most part everyone seems pretty happy! Which, I'm glad of. I can't speak for the whole house, but there only seems to be frustration during Philo events (if we're a noticeably smaller group than the other houses, XYZ has 40 girls competing in something and we have 7, etc) and during recruitment-- which is stressful for everyone. I know my pledge class is very close, and we only had one drop. Like I said, things are getting better and I think with hard work we'll grow. ^^

Clemson Girl:

I actually didn't know no phones was a common rule, I'll try to find out from our delegate! Thanks!

Sigmagirl2000:

Thanks for explaining a bit, I admit I don't know much about the RFM! Just that many of my sisters (myself included) have been frustrated with not being able to release PNM's that are negative and clearly don't want to be a sister because they're "destined to be an XYZ".

You need to be relaxed and confident in yourself and your chapter. You can't make someone want to be at your party.

You need to work on basic communication skills with your chapter. Your body language should be open and relaxed. You should make eye contact. You should sit squarely facing the person you are talking to. You should lean forward a little bit.

Any conversation should be based on good listening. You need to be respectful and empathetic. You should show genuine interest in the other person. You need to give the PNM space to talk about herself. People like to talk about themselves. Lots of recruitment conversations can be really scripted. If you give broad openings and let the person pick the one that interests her, you can get to a more genuine conversation that makes her feel good about herself and about your chapter. Ie. "What make you decide to come to ABC University?" is a better opening than "What's your major?" Asking a major requires a very specific answer. "Why did you pick ABC?" allows the person to expand in any direction and gives you lots of conversational hooks. Other good, broad openers: "What have you liked best about campus so far?" "What are you looking forward to doing at school this year?" If they say they came to ABC because they wanted to join a really great dance team, ask them to tell you about their plans to get involved with dance team. If they tell you that they came to ABC because they really love robotics engineering, ask them how they decided to major in robotics. Just get them to tell you something about themselves and then talk about that.

With the specific problems you pointed out:

If someone is crying at pref, ask her why. "Hey, you seem really upset. What's wrong?" Listen to her. Talk to her about it. Show some empathy. Be sisterly. Recruitment is super stressful for PNMs. If she says that she can't believe that she was cut by every other chapter, tell her that you understand that she is disappointed and that recruitment is stressful. Then tell her that your chapter would like to have her as a sister and that you've found a great sisterhood in your chapter. Tell her why you love it. Tell her that you'll understand if she chooses not to submit a bid card, but that you'd like her to try it because you've found it to be really great. Even if you don't pick her up, she will remember you for being kind when she was a hot mess. That can only improve your reputation.

If someone is ignoring you, find something about her to talk about. Admire her shoes or hair or outfit. Flattery works! It can at least draw the girl out and get her to talk so you aren't talking to a wall for the whole party.

If someone is texting, ask her to put it away. Say very sweetly "Oh... phones at parties are recruitment violations! You should put that away before the Rho Chi sees it! I don't want you to get in trouble!" (I don't know that people are being mean with their phones. Some people just don't realize how obnoxious their phone behavior is.)

KDCat:

Thank you! Those are great strategies. I think the phone one is awesome-- you come off as on the PNM's side, but it gets her to put her phone away. I'll for sure share these with my sisters so that they're better prepared to deal with some of the issues they talked about having last year <333.

There are times in life when you have to deal with horrible, horrible people. This is a good training ground. You're not going to talk that hag into liking you, your chapter or the sorority as a whole. She won't talk? I would just talk a blue streak about something so utterly happy that you can't help but smile while you tell the story. Then escort her out of the house and make damned sure she gets cut.

I think there have been plenty of stats that say inviting back everyone is a recipe for failure. If you are using RFM correctly, even the most struggling chapter is allowed to make SOME cuts. It doesn't have to be a lot and maybe reserved for the most vile of girls, but there should still be SOME cuts. And I would narc on her to panhel. Nobody needs that kind of drama in their chapters.

And I think there's nothing wrong with a little honesty. This girl is freaked out about only having "the worst house" left at preference or before? Lay it out there. Yes, you're smaller, but you are growing, you love your sisterhood and you think she would be a welcome addition to the mix. If she is willing to help make the chapter all it can be, you think she would be happy.

And then love the hell out of the girls who are strong enough to take the plunge.

This isn't true. NOT ALL CHAPTERS GET TO MAKE CUTS. This is totally dependent on the strength of the chapter as well as the number of chapters and number of PNMS. I know of several chapters at several recruitments where chapters are allowed zero cuts per carry figures. Most times even when RFM specialists are contacted, the only cuts that can be made are for women who don't meet national grade requirements.

BTDT

I think it's better if the chapter has a minimal number of cuts, even when they should be inviting everyone back. It helps them feel like they don't have to take everyone. They are making some choices, rather than just getting everyone else's leftovers.

Just because a chapter can make a few cuts doesn't mean that they will avoid a reputation for taking "anyone." No one actually knows who cuts who anymore since PNMs don't accept/reject invitations anymore. The most struggling chapter in campus will get that reputation no matter how many people they cut. It's unfortunately part of the rumor mill. Focusing on this is counter productive. Luckily, as the chapter becomes more successful, they are allowed more releases which makes the members feel like they have more of a say in membership selection.

You've already gotten some excellent advice and strategies! This is not a completely analogous situation, but I help promote my child's school as a member of the PTA. In terms of the private schools in our area we are smaller and often the second choice of many families. We also suffer from the school equivalent of "tent talk". Anyway, knowing all this, when I talk to prospective families I emphasize the unique things about the school - the many opportunities for involvement that would not exist at a larger school. The one on one relationships you develop, etc.

Applying that to your sorority - being able to get leadership positions, that you will not get lost in the crowd, every sister will know you, etc. Do you have any fun chapter traditions that you can talk about?

As other posters noted, dealing with boorish, rude people is a life skill. I am sure it can be disconcerting, and throw you off your game. But, if you specifically prepare your membership for the possibility that it might happen - and give them two or three "talking points" to emphasize and circle around to - then at least you have a proactive game plan.

Finally, I just have to say, who are these PNMs - who raised these young women to have no manners or class? If I ever found out my daughter or any of her friends treated people this way I would go thermonuclear!

I, also, think it is demoralizing for women to be treated rudely in their home by a PNM and then see her back the next round. Sometimes, it may be better to miss quota by a few and be allowed to regret the PNM who does not know how to act graciously in such situation.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!! IF a PNM has really been rude & made it clear that she would rather be having a root canal than attend a particular recruitment event, no one should be forced to extend another invitation.

And remembering that full party schedules are not as common as they were back in my day, if the struggling chapter cuts the hag, it WILL be noticed.

She may try to spin the spot in her schedule to her friends, but they will know she's not at the struggling house because SHE GOT CUT.

And I am devastated to hear there are chapters that are expected to make zero cuts. If I were an advisor for a struggling chapter I'd say screw that and let them cut at least a few girls each round. I mean, what is 5 girls per round going to do in the bigger picture, except give the girls a little feeling of empowerment? Then when they tell a girl at pref that she's there because they want her there they can be saying it with honesty.

Deliberately disregarding the RFM recommendations sounds like a good way to have NHQ supervising your next recruitment.

I would love to see a panhellenic/school wide type rule that if you're deliberately rude, inappropriate, disinterested etc... with one of the chapters, you're done with recruitment.

I don't think it's too much to ask for an 18 yr old young woman to be able to be polite and courteous to all houses during recruitment. If they can't do it for this, I question their overall attitude and how they'd fit in group dynamics.

I clearly remember several posts here awhile back in which an advisor forced a Southern chapter at a big school to ask back everyone (not sure if it was before or after RFM). Then when the chapter was sending in their bid lists, she slipped in a few extra names. It was hugely disastrous.

Let us not forget the Weird Rush Stories thread either! There are some people who don't need to be Greek.

That's when you say to your advisor or whoever "You know we are a very open minded group of women who doesn't cut people for shallow reasons. But no less than 7 sisters tried to engage this girl in conversation and she refused to say anything more than she was only here because she was forced to be. Do you honestly want us to break our backs trying to get her to come around and lose women we really want in the process?"

The whole "don't say negative things during MS" is good in theory, but not in practice, unless you have code words.

Truth. Regardless, the decision to follow RFM carry figures or not shouldn't be left to collegiate members to decide. If the situation is this dire, there should be regional/ national/ international support, especially if these are ongoing issues. Having a local advisor blatantly go against carry figures is a good way to get penalized by the organization (i.e. part of Sigma Kappa's standards of excellence scoring includes whether or not carry figures and RFM recommendations were followed).

In this case, it doesn't sound like the situation is all that dire. If these PNMs are sticking with recruitment even if they only have a chapter they aren't thrilled about, the clearly are at least considering going to find a home in this chapter instead of not being greek at all. These PNMs may be going through a mourning period of realizing they don't fit in with chapters where they thought they would end up. Perhaps even if upset at recruitment events, they can still be turned into positive contributing members of the organization. If this isn't the case, let their behavior be knows. Even if I was a member of a strong recruiting chapter, I wouldn't want to extend bids to women who could behave so heinously to other women in the Greek community. It sounds like recruitment rules need to be revisited (re: phones, etc.).

Best of luck to the OP and her chapter!

What if we did let PNM's cut chapters? At many campuses, a PNM is dropped from recruitment if she doesn't attend a party. But if she goes and acts like an asshole, that's fine. Maybe we should get rid of the attendance rule, and if someone is SO inconvenienced by having to visit a chapter they aren't interested in, just let them skip it.

I see what you're trying to do...but we have heard SO many stories of girls changing their minds about chapters once they attend the party. It's hard to distinguish between "has their feelings hurt but could be swayed" and "giant a-hole" at that moment...

Sigh.... do you understand why RFM was implemented? If all PNMs were allowed to drop chapters that they don't like or even know yet, then we would have chapters with few returning to parties and many, many more PNMs without a bid at the end of the process..

I think the situation we are talking about here refers to a few extreme situations. And if the behavior was that extreme, I think there are already policies in place to deal with it.

Yes, I understand why RFM was implemented. I'm not going to stay up nights worrying about PNM's who go bidless because they were total assholes. I'd rather a PNM not be at my party than be there telling the others what a crappy chapter it is.

This thread really makes me sad for the women in the chapters who are so wonderful, and are treated so horribly by PNMs who do NOT deserve to be invited anywhere, not even to shovel up dog poop.

I'm thinking about what DBB is saying, and honestly I see some merit in it (letting PNMs "cut" chapters). Because the way things work, those PNMs would NOT have any invites at all very early on in the process. They'd be released from the chapters they want, and they'd be releasing the chapters they actually stand a chance in - so...think about it. Shrink the PNM pool, bring the pledge class sizes down; at least that is where my brain is going with this.

DBB, I like it.

But isn't that how things were before RFM where the weak/less desirable chapters had no one showing up to their parties and struggled with numbers and ultimately had to close? Isn't that why RFM was created in the first place?

Sidenote: by looking at the NPC recruitment and chapter listing thread, I have noticed that at a lot of campuses, there's still 1 chapter that's taking significantly less than quota. I thought RFM was supposed to fix that?

RFM doesn't "fix" everything.

Read over what I wrote, and see if you can follow my logic. I'm thinking that those PNMs will be kicked completely out of the system early on.

I don't know that it would work that way. I know girls who went through recruitment with me who were downright MEAN to some chapters-I even thought "wherever I land, I hope she's not my sister" just based on how they said they behaved during the party-and they got their first choice of bids from very competitive chapters. I think this is a case where you can't necessarily trust the system, and it's just better to remove girls who are reported for being rude entirely.

^^^ point well made and taken.

RFM has been fab for those middle chapters that may have had a hiccup or two, or else just didn't seem to stand out. PNMs get released from the superstar chapters and then give the middle chapters a look.

RFM doesn't work when a chapter has to invite everyone back. I'm sorry, but in cases where you are being told you have to invite women back who were downright abusive to you, it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. It's a sad commentary on the Greek system, but often the bottom chapter is there because they ARE the most open to all kinds of people who don't meet the sorority stereotype and give them a chance. So think about it. What does it take for that chapter to cut someone?

And like cg said, there are chapters who have no Panhellenic spirit and could care less if one of their new pledges was a complete bitch to everyone except them.

ETA: if there's true Panhellenic spirit, reporting a PNM can work, but I also can envision cases where it would backfire terribly on the sorority.

Perhaps the solution is a "reverse dance party" where all the rude PNMs get taken to a room while everyone else socializes. (Kidding) (but kind of not)

I think the solution wouldn't even be that you have to remove rude PNM's, just that you have to make them *think* they would be removed. The threat, properly handed down, would be good enough.

(BTW, I know I had at least one foot-in-mouth moment during a rush party...I'm not talking about yawning or saying something dumb, but if women are truly texting during parties, that's ridiculous)

to thecon
 

Going back to the origional post, I would advise you to contact your national/area membership officer to start a dialogue about this issue. Know your numbers and statistics. Open up a discussion to the possibility of a limited number of releases...sometimes getting to release just a few PNMs gives the chapter more confidance.

And also have a plan of action to offer: having a snap bid list for Bid Day or solid COB list in order to reach quota quickly after recruitment in return for the priviledge of obtaining permission to over-release a set number of PNMs.

You may get permission, or you may not. But it is worth a try.

And great advise is given in this thread about how to deal with rude or crying girls....believe me, we all have them from time to time.

ALL chapters should have a list at ALL times of women who are possible members....including upperclassmen and women who for whatever reason didn't go through formal rush. That woman who knows most of the sisters will blend in more seamlessly than a girl who you had to pull teeth to get her to have a conversation.

And yes, EVERY chapter should do this...I don't care if you made quota plus for the last century. You never know what might happen.

PREACH, Aloha! I'd give my little legacy (she's only 10 right now) a come to Jesus moment. Our goal is to raise a polite, kind, independent and intelligent lady. If I got word of her being nasty to someone (same goes for now in elementary school as well in the future), she'd get a BIG BIG talking to. Who is raising these girls? Coyotes? Yikes. Kudos to the poster who mentioned that saying the phone is a taboo item during recruitment. I was a Rho Chi my last semester at school. I'd give a smackdown to any of my gals if I got word of them being nasty. Thankfully, I got blessed with sweethearts and so did my best friend who was in a different sorority.

I must be a dunce, but what does RFM stand for?

^^^^ RFM = Release Figure Methodology. The NPC recommended system for
figuring number of invitations per chapter per round in formal recruitment.

https://www.npcwomen.org/resources/p...ate%202014.pdf

Hey all. Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I just wanted to update everyone. We're nearly done with our fall recruitment and I'm super excited to report that from the second to the thIrd day we had a very very high return rate for the first time in ages. It's too soon to tell yet but we worked super hard and might have pulled off an amazing fall formal.

Also our new advisor allowed us to make cuts and advocated for us to be able to get rid of girls that were downright rude, right out of the gate. Which made everyone more enthusiastic and happy. My sisters (for the most part) felt like they actually had a little say which made all the difference in the world.

So, so happy to hear you have someone in your corner who GETS IT. Here's hoping for a fabulous NM class!!

That's great news! So happy for you and your chapter!

Have a great recruitment and a good fall!

That's great! And a little success will help all of the issues. There may still be girls who don't want that house but if SOME girls are happy then others will be at least more open to giving you a shot. And with that you're allowed to make more cuts, and in just a few years you are right in the middle of the pack. I've seen it happen more than once!

Let us know how it ends up!