Pi Kappa Phi chapter at NC State suspended after "embarrassing, scary" book found
 

It just doesn't seem to stop.

WRAL news: NC State fraternity placed on interim suspension after 'embarrassing, scary' book found

From the story:

Quote:

Pi Kappa Phi has placed its North Carolina State University chapter on interim suspension pending the outcome of an investigation into the contents of a book that was found at a restaurant near campus, the fraternity announced Friday morning. The little, green book, filled with handwritten comments, included racially and sexually charged language and derogatory comments about women and children. . . . The comments were signed in places, and the names match up to those listed as brothers on the Pi Kappa Phi website. "This is just a group of 60-something young men at State making jokes about raping people, raping children, raping dead women, making very overt racist comments." . . . Excerpts from the book are disturbing. "It will be short and painful, just like when I rape you," one page reads. "If she's hot enough, she doesn't need a pulse," says another. "That tree is so perfect for lynching," reads another. "Be kind to the whales because they'll lead you to the dolphins," says a fourth.

NC State is also investigating.

I would say we've definitely hit the tipping point.

What tipping point?

Google it, Kevin.

The national org can do what it wants. The school shouldn't get involved here.

This afternoon's story from the Raleigh News & Observer includes this:

Quote:

The fraternity chapter is the second at N.C. State to be suspended this week. The university’s Alpha Tau Omega chapter was suspended after police found drug paraphernalia, white powder and an orange liquid during a search. Police searched the home on Varsity Drive after a woman said she was sexually assaulted there. Several other N.C. State fraternities are currently suspended. Phi Gamma Delta is on probation and subject to alcohol restrictions, and Phi Beta Sigma is suspended until 2018 for a hazing incident in 2014. Theta Chi is also suspended pending the investigation into a 2014 allegation of sexual assault at the fraternity’s house off Hillsborough Street.

The NC State chapter of Delta Sigma Phi was also suspended due to allegations of sexual assault at the house, but that suspension was lifted a few weeks ago when the allegations could not be substantiated.

Indeed. The cry for abolishing fraternities grows only louder.

I am thoroughly disgusted.

It shouldn't grow at all because it will require a Constitutional Amendment to accomplish.

And it seems like too many chapters are intent on providing all the ammunition for those taking up the cry.

Not to mention all the parents who do not want their sons to be any part of what has been going on.

NC State Frat's Pledge Book Joked 'That Tree Is So Perfect For Lynching'- RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) -- Two fraternities at North Carolina State University have been suspended - one for what appeared to be an offensive pledge book, the other for drug and sexual assault allegations - two of the latest chapters reprimanded in a wave of unseemly fraternity behavior across the country. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...ushpmg00000052

The First Amendment means that public colleges cannot bar students from joining fraternities or take disciplinary action against them for doing so. Private schools, of course, are under no such constraints.

But the First Amendment does not require public colleges to have Greek life or to recognize fraternities as student organizations.

So no, no one can "abolish" fraternities. But schools, both public and private, can certainly make it very difficult for fraternities to survive, at least as we presently know them. And as 1964alum said, loss of parental support—or possibly even alumni support—can also make survival difficult.

I've seen this happen repeatedly the past ten years; my Greek friends are actively discouraging their sons (and, in some cases, their daughters) from joining fraternities. What I hear over and over is "it's not like it was when we were in school" along with examples of how it's not like it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago.

And it is becoming increasingly difficult to enlist alums to support the chapters. That's my actual experience, not an opinion. It's not just my chapter, either. It's across the board.

Public colleges are where the vast majority of most of our chapters exist. That may not be true for all of us, but certainly most. And at most of those schools, the Greek Life system is an asset to its campus. We are here to stay and our rights of free association aren't going anywhere. Yeah, we might see a smattering of angsty editorials from journalism students in campus newspapers, Alexandra Robbins might book a few more gigs, but really, we are not going away no matter how many of these incidents occur.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can to do better and from Pi Kappa Phi's actions, how could anyone conclude they have any other intent other than to try to do the right thing?

For public schools, to derecognize Greek Life would be an unmitigated disaster. Alumni donations would come to a screeching halt and these organizations on or around campus holding parties for thousands of students at a time with zero opportunity for organizational cooperation with Title IX examiners, zero control over sanctioning groups for bad conduct, etc.? This wouldn't work.

Pi Kappa Phi is investigating this. They'll do what they think is the right thing after they have assembled all of the facts. That the entire American fraternal system should be disbanded because two chapters apparently have a bunch of racist asshats in them? I don't think so.

A chapter sister's son is the president of ATO at NC State. She was very proud when he was elected. They only live about 10 minutes away and she helps out quite a bit. I'm really sorry to hear about this...I hope that in that case, the drug paraphernalia belonged to an isolated member.

There's also the potential issue of incoming students who might look at some of what has gone on and say "why would I want to part of that?"

They have been, but I think it's dangerous for any fraternity to assume that campus administrations will continue to feel that way.

I think it's more than just doing better. I think fraternities have to work off the assumption that we bear the burden of proving to administrations, parents and students that we are an asset to campus life and to student life.

I think this an overgeneralized assumption. Yes, some alumni contributions might stop. On some campuses it might be lots, but not on all. I know plenty of public campuses where Greek life is relatively small, and I have no problem imagining some administrations deciding that the cons to the school outweigh the pros.

Two things:

First, it's not "two chapters." It's at least two chapters in the last two weeks. While we all know that these chapters don't represent all of the fraternity system, we also know these chapters in these lady few weeks are just the latest in a too-long line. But the non-Greek public just sees yet more racist, mysogenist, crude, entitled frat boys. That public perception is what fraternities are up against, and part of the reason is the recurring behavior of too many of our members. The perception that I have heard from a number of people, some of who are not Greek but some of whom are, is that these "isolated" incidents are symptomatic of a widespread, systemic problem in fraternities. That's what we're dealing with.

And second, I, at least, am not predicting mass dismantling of the fraternity system. I'm predicting the possibility of death by a thousand cuts as some campuses decide they can live without Greek life, as some parents do not want their sons participating in Greek life, as some students who might otherwise be attracted to Greek life decide they don't want to be associated with it, and as some alumni decide they no longer want to support it because of what they perceive it as having become.

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

Translation: Be nice to the ugly/fat girls; they may lead you to the hot ones.

You have to take all things in context. If they were plotting to lynch someone, that borders on psychotic. If they were trying to be funny by writing things which would shock the conscience, like dead baby jokes (VERY NSFW),

http://www.skrause.org/humor/deadbaby.shtml

Then i'm not going to say they were psychotic... but maybe they were indecent and need to learn that their "humor" can actually cause severe mental anguish for some people. This sort of speech is pervasive within our culture. A lot of it comes from places like 4chan (again, super NSFW) or other websites these kids have been visiting long before they entered the fraternity system.

Of course. That said, I'm not going to call for the end of the institution of the American college fraternity because some of their members might make inappropriate jokes. That seems absurd.

And I appreciate what you're saying Mysticat, but to even acknowledge that these people calling for the end of the fraternal system as having some means to accomplish that just encourages them. As long as our national organizations as in this case continue to be good stewards of their reputation, I'm pretty sure we'll be just fine.

I completely agree. For fraternities to take the position of apologists and minimizers only feeds right into the stereotypes. The reality is that fraternities are now on the ropes. And need to do some SERIOUS self-examination and take effective corrective measures rather than indulge in defensive maneuvers.

Decent people -including current college students and alumni- are horrified by these revelations. And wonder what more is going on behind the closed doors of a fraternity. Who would want to be a part of this?!!!

Nothing could be further from the truth. The fraternal system as a whole is healthy and doing as well as it ever has. The Atlantic has done a pretty decent job of covering these situations and where schools have attempted to shut down fraternities, it hasn't always gone well. Public schools just won't do it. It may be fun to talk about, but it's just not in the cards.

Decent people need to stop shitting their pants every time a 19-20 year old does something stupid. Kids did stupid stuff when you were in school. You probably did stupid stuff when you were in school. They will continue to do dumb things. Some things, e.g., offensive jokes, should be forgivable and seen as opportunities to educate and improve lives. Other things, e.g., gang rape, are unforgivable and we should do the utmost to cooperate with Title IX investigators and law enforcement and not attempt to cover up illicit activities. And the thing is--our national offices and officers are pretty darn good at these things. Most schools are as well.

People should really stop saying that we can't handle any more of this or that and that "it must stop" or we're facing some sort of existential crisis. We're not. We are fine. Kids will continue to do stupid things and we'll be fine. Might we close down a chapter for 4 years and recolonize? Yep. As long as net, we're adding more chapters than we're losing, we're winning the war.

At least anecdotally, I have really enjoyed working with my national organization and my school's Greek Life professionals (I know they lurk here) and see them actively working to expand the Greek community (rather than as you suggest to do it harm) and to provide great options for student life on the campus.

I'm truly glad you've had that experience, but I would not assume that is a universal experience.

And again, I'm not talking about a vast plot from the outside to bring the fraternity system down. I'm talking about the risk of the fraternity system bringing itself down, or at least injuring itself substantially.

I completely agree. Repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot will eventually result in permanent harm.

Keep digging that hole and fall right in.

And Kevin, I decline your characterization of me as wanting to harm fraternities. Not in the least. I want them to do some serious soul searching to see what they have become and where they are heading.

And no, I never saw anything like what I am seeing now back in the day. Never.

MWhen it comes to these comments online it's not just fraternity guys. Look at what's happened in recent weeks with Curt Schilling and his daughter and then Ashley Judd and her tweet about the UK game. It's like some game where these guys are just trying to say the most shocking thing. It's disgusting and I don't know what's prompted it because these comments are not exclusive to Greek life. People just have no filter and no worry about consequences.

ETA: I don't mean this as an excuse for these comments, at all. I'm just wondering how we got here.

Well, my mother was Greek back in the day... hazed quite a bit at Oklahoma State University. My father was Greek, hazed at OU... they didn't have to hide the racism because it was so institutionalized as part of their world. Blacks were not allowed to join their organizations because of national rules against it.

And the sort of crap my father did when pledging his house? That would never happen today. Totally insane stuff including kidnapping their pledge trainer, flying him in a personal aircraft to a remote location in the NW part of the state, taking all of his clothes but his underwear and handcuffing him to an oil pumpjack... or the potential arson (he's not sure of this) of another fraternity house.

Have some historical perspective about what our organizations used to be and what we have become today. Our chapters include men of all races, religions and sexual identifications, and yes, some alumni and some chapters have a problem with that... but we're making progress little by little.

You have to have a little perspective. If death by thousands of papercuts was going to happen, it'd have happened already. We're stronger than ever in terms of values and membership and money. I hope y'alls' national organizations responded to these incidents the same way mine did--with memos reminding chapters to implement programming which we already have in place.

But these reactionary threads are crazy. Yeah, condemn the bad behavior, but don't shit your pants every time an 18-20 year old kid does or says something stupid or you're gonna run out of drawers.

A lot of this isn't just stupid, Kevin, and I think you know that.

With all due respect, Kevin, you need some perspective, too. Like you said, the world has changed. The racism that once was out in the open because it was institutionalized isn't going to be tolerated as easily by the wider society now. Neither will the "boys will be boys" excuse —which is exactly what it is. (It's an odd excuse, too, for organizations that claim to be "values-based" organizations and that want their members to be thought of as "fraternity men.")

I would hope my national org would respond with a lot more than that. Memos? That's window dressing that does little to actually address problems.

Are you trying to be obtuse? Memos reminding us about programs we already have in place. Not just memos. Programs already in place.

And the "boys will be boys" concept is no less true than 50 years ago. If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

All of this! Memos about fraternity programming clearly aren't working. And let's not all point fingers and say, "My organization is already above the curve and doing all it needs to do. It's working for us." None of us here can say that with 100% certainty, unless you know the inner workings of every single one of your chapters.

Making racist comments isn't ok. Taking pictures of naked women without their consent and posting them online isn't ok. When are we going to stop shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Eh, they're 18.. that's what college guys do?" When are we going to hold our members to a higher standard... ya know, the ones that are in our rituals and creeds, that we advertise as being the reason to join our organizations?

This. I'd also love to hear it.

It's not the fraternity system coming to an end, it's the WORLD, because holy shit, I still agree with Kevin!!

These kids have known how to access porn and some of the sickest things you could imagine on a computer since they were old enough to toddle. They have zero filter as far as whether they should share a thought in public. Heavens, of COURSE they should, because it is their thought and everything that emits from them is a glitter rainbow. Fraternities didn't do that. They come to school with this attitude.

"It's amazing how long our country has been going to hell without ever having gotten there." -Andy Rooney

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not saying fraternities created the problem, though I do acknowledge that some people are saying that. What I am saying is that the task for fraternities is to be seen as part of a solution.

LOL, of course I'm not trying to be obtuse. I knew exactly what you meant. I'm just not impressed by it. Memos telling people to follow the policies in place are the corporate equivalent of "now children, we've told you not do that." The guys who are going to follow the policies will do it anyway. The guys who aren't going to will ignore the memos.

Memos telling members to follow policies may be a start, but my point is that if that's the extent of a response, it's an inadequate response.

The "boys will be boys" concept is an excuse. Of course, people of any age will say stupid things, and I know as well as anyone how the brain and judgment of a 19-year-old boy isn't fully developed.

But you've said yourself that the vast majority of chapters aren't doing these stupid things. So apparently lots of boys won't be boys. Trotting out that excuse does nothing except to appear to tut-tut behavior that is going way beyond just "saying stupid things."

I agree that a Chicken Little response is an over-reaction. But the other extreme is an ostrich with his head in the sand, saying there's no real problem. There is a problem, a cultural problem, and it's in the best interests of fraternities to be seen to be trying to change the culture. We claim to be about creating leaders, so let's let the public see us doing that.

Jesus Christ... the national organization has suspended the chapter's charter pending investigation? What more do you want? The CIA to be sent in with waterboards?

And I don't know about your org, but traditional main line fraternities already have a crap ton of programming aimed at diversity, bystander intervention, etc. None of those things and no number of visits from HQ are going to change the fact that we are organizations primarily composed of 18-20 year olds who say and do stupid things from time to time and that will never change no matter what programming we have.

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book. -- Cicero.

Men

Man

white men

***

Men existing in all male spaces, and especially white men existing in all-white or mainly white spaces, have a responsibility to not be racist, to not be sexist, to not rape, to not oppress. When one joins a fraternity, it is understood that those beliefs and actions are not more important than the values of the private organization that they join, not just because the values themselves are pretty much infallible, but there are tangible repercussions to not living up to those values.

I am growing increasingly concerned that the culture of mainly white fraternities and sororities is one that reinforces white supremacy, even in the presence of black members; that reinforces sexism and sexual violence; and fosters a sense of generational entitlement.

For years, going on decades, I used to question, and even be angered by Georgetown's position against recognizing fraternities and sororities. When I went to an administrator about it, he/she said "I understand, and I do think the black/Latino/multicultural sororities and fraternities do a lot of good. But if we recognize those, we have to recognize the white organizations, too. And we don't want to risk that. At least you have city-wide chapters."

From a university's perspective, I now understand. While I don't think Georgetown's decision was necessarily an eloquent one, they needed to take the path of the least liability. By deemed Greek life an off-campus decision in the hands of the students, they have created an environment that they can control through the traditional means of adjudication and grievance, without third party intervention.

Of course, people may still join organizations - you all are well aware that KKG and Theta have colonized in the past year and a half, and that AEPi, SAE, SigEp, and Delta Psi all have chapters on campus. The NPHC presence ebbs and flows, and several LGLOs also have a presence.

I am surprised that I agree with Georgetown's stance, now that I see the damaging effects of the culture of whiteness on the Greek system as a whole. I am not in favor of any institution that reinforces oppression at all, much less in an academic environment.

These are men making decisions. Let them make those decisions off campus. There is precedent, inside and outside of Greek life.

And maybe we can stop making the insurance brokers rich in the process.

Some bad stuff has happened, Sen. Several white GLOs have gotten in trouble. And so have many black ones, primarily for major hazing.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing: I am sharing a link that calls for abolition of the fraternity system, including repealing Title IX exemption for fraternities and sororities.

Heaven forbid a discussion primarily about white supremacy and patriarchy carry on without a woman with white privilege making it about something else.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/a.../greek-tragedy

if you were going to say something about the Georgetown advisor thinking that only the majority white GLOs had anything bad going, this needed to be said. I still think that all GLOs have much to contribute, though.

Now who's trying to be obtuse Kevin? I was very clearly replying to a specific comment of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2310959) I hope y'alls' national organizations responded to these incidents the same way mine did--with memos reminding chapters to implement programming which we already have in place.

Yes, we all have policies and programs in place—some of them really good ones. Sending memos about them is a band-aid.

What I'm saying is that we have a PR problem. The headlines and news stories are what people are seeing. Some who are paying attention see us reacting—sometimes strongly, sometimes tepidly. But the fact remains, we have a PR problem. To fix that we have to be proactive and creative in ways we haven't always had to be before. We need to take responsibility for trying to get things to the place that when people hear "fraternity," they don't automatically think "privileged, racist, mysogenist frat boys."

To be clear, it can't just be PR. Almost every statement issued by a fraternity when these things happen says something along the lines of "these actions are not consistent with the values of ABC fraternity." We need to let the wider community see us exemplifying our values so that when we say that, it doesn't just sound like damage control. Sure we do that in some ways now, but we that doesn't mean we can't do more, or that there may not be new ways that would be effective.

We say when these things happen that they're aberrations and don't represent the majority of fraternity members or chapters. We need to back that up in a way that when we say it, people have reason the believe it.

I really don't see why this is a controversial concept. Seems pretty basic to me.

And Sen, agreed—men, not boys.

Ok, I'm not looking for a big debate about what recruitment needs to be at larger schools or whether deferred recruitment would work, or any of those other arguments we usually have (I'm looking at you, NPCers ;) ), but I wanted to post this article that made me think a bit... what if we tried to stop the problems before they even begin?

Is Fraternity/Sorority an Outdated Idea?
http://blog.phiredup.com/?p=3267