"Am I pretty enough rush?"
 

I originally had typed up something for a response in the thread: THE "bottom" sorority
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=144159

However, I felt that much of what I had to say had already been said by some posters whose opinions I greatly respect, and anything more I thought should be added would not have been received well by some of the other GCers posting in the thread.

Then when the alleged leaked USC sorority email was recently doing the rounds on social media, regardless of its accuracy, I felt it reinforced a certain reality endemic at some campuses. It is a reality that some on this would board either ignore, pretend not to exist, or are just oblivious to. There are some who would give out advice that seeks to quash its existence and in doing so I feel would be detrimental for a PNM's expectations.

And since its that time of the year when PNMs will start receiving their letters of admission from college, it is also ideally time to really begin the preparation for sorority recruitment in earnest. Therefore I have decided to add my thoughts to the conversation.

How a PNM physically looks, and her size, is a real factor in a PNM's chances during rush; at some schools definitely, and perhaps at most schools. And yes, I use rush on purpose because formal recruitment is just another example of the euphemistic culture in some people's approach to giving advice to PNMs.

I am in no way stating that how a person looks is an explicit criteria in an organisation's membership selection. But how physically attractive a young woman is, affects her chances of success in all aspects of life, sorority rush included.

Whether this is a subconscious mental decision or a decidedly conscious one on the part of the actives, this kind of mentality is just a fact of our current society. We could debate all day and night what socio-cultural genesis this problem has, but that is not important.

What is important is that the telling to PNMs at certain schools that they should "keep an open mind", "do not listen to the tent talk", "try to look past the reputation", etc, is disingenuous, even harmful. That kind of advice can breed false hope or unrealistic expectations.

At USC, a freshman PNM is probably not a red flag for a grade risk, on the very virtue of being admitted to SC in the first place. What is going to really affect her rush is: who she is, who she knows, and especially how she looks. And if she does not have any recs, but looks like a Victoria's Secret Angel, then she is probably going to get a full list of invites each round.

And don't forget, this mentality is not exclusive to the chapter's opinions of a PNM's value. The PNM is most likely making her decisions about a chapter's worth based on the very same shallow premises.

Greek life may extend long after college years into alumna status, but its the active years that are the most attractive part of the experience. And at some schools, it would be a lie to say that all sorority experiences were made equal.

Total Sorority Move may not often give the best portrayal of Greek life, but I thought a recent article titled: An Answer To The Age-Old Question: Am I Pretty Enough To Rush? Was well-written especially in its candour.

I personally believe the opportunities open to a women who decides to go Greek more than outweighs the social cost of having a 'less successful' rush. Above all, the women who decide to accept their bids and be committed to their choices will more than likely find sisterhood, a wealth of college memories, and brilliant preparation for their futures. That being said, I will not gloss over the fact that come this fall when the bid cards are handed out, there will be women who will face crushing disappointment. Because, they will overnight become the target of hurtful, mean, and awful comments just based on the fact they wear certain letters. Tiers may eventually change over generations but at certain schools its never going to happen with "one amazing pledge class" that "work their butts off to change their reputation and be the best chapter they can be".

To end on a positive note, for all those PNMs heading off to college this fall I do really believe in this advice, and it is quite wonderful:
　

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Originally Posted by irishpipes (Post 2294974) In the end, your sorority doesn't make you top tier or bottom tier. Be a top tier person. Make people say, "she's an XYZ?"

I'm really confused as to what you're trying to say. If you're pretty you shouldn't pledge a less popular chapter? :confused:

That email was less about physical beauty than it was about rules and regulations. My chapter's fb group (let's just say my alma mater was the polar opposite of USC) thought it was awful, until I explained the size of these chapters and this rush. It's honestly more like wearing uniforms at school to keep the focus on academics. I didn't think anything in it was over the top or rude.

QFP

I checked the OP's previous posts, and they've gone to a similar well before. I'm still not sure what the ultimate point is....

This is what I got from the OP: Tiers are real, y'all. Be pretty or go home because why would anyone even want to be in a bottom house? Ew.

Not sure why she quoted irishpipes. I don't think that quote means what 28stgreek thinks it means.

This is what confused me the most. 98% of what she said meant one thing, and then the quote she posted to "prove her point" went in a completely different direction.

Tiers are indeed real. They just don't mean that much other than which chapters are most popular during rush and which fraternities they mix with.

So maybe it determines who you meet and date and MARRY! ACK!

If I'd been in another sorority maybe I'd have dated different guys....maybe I'd also be divorced 6 times with 10 kids.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Instead of thinking you can plan your life and plan for all the maybes do what makes you happy now and you'll get where you should be even if you didn't think it was the right place initially.

DISCLAIMER: This is not a caffeinated post.

The last line in that TSM article is the 1 to remember:
... plan on getting a recommendation for EVERY sorority on campus

I do not understand this post/thread at all. Is Mercury in retrograde again or something of the sort?

I'm with you, 28StGreek. ON SOME CAMPUSES.

Not that only a "top tier chapter" will take the "pretty" girls (and I despise even the idea of tiers), but women tend to look at conventionally beautiful women, and the beauty queens and models, if they don't have disgusting manners, will likely get a second look.

I believe, however, that most campuses are much more forgiving. And frankly, as I get older, I realize there really is no such thing as an ugly 18-year-old.

That's not necessarily true. At some chapters (of all tiers) who you know and your connections trumps "pretty" or "hot" every time. EVERY time.

Agree! And by the way, amiblue, excellent allusion to "The Princess Bride." :D

That was not what I was trying to say, apologies for not being clear in my original post. What I was trying to say was that sometimes when PNMs to certain schools ask for advice on how to prepare for rush, some advice is missing.

Yes it is imperative to get recs to all the houses as soon as possible; keep your grades up; pick out your clothes ahead of time; and practice speaking confidently. But I also think PNMs, at particular schools, need to be told to seriously take a look in the mirror. I do think, and agree with the Tsm article writer, that when a PN, asks: “Am I good enough to rush?”, or “What are my chances of going through sorority recruitment at ABC State?”; really equates to “Am I pretty enough to rush?”

NB: I do realise that I made a mistake in the thread title, and forgot to include the word 'to'.

And if a PNM possibly does not fit the stereotypical attractiveness as portrayed by the recent trend of sorority tumblr blogs and professionally-made Bid Day videos, then she needs to prepare herself to accept heavy cuts.

And my advice for if the PNM is pretty: she should choose to pledge at the chapter she feels most at home at.

If that was, the case, then why the emphasis of looking one's best as opposed to 'neat', 'tidy', 'put together' or even 'professional'. On the inclusion of phrases such as:
"[if you wear Spanx] you don't have to worry about sucking in all the time."
"look less beautiful than you actually are"
Or the insistence on exercise.

I am pretty sure I got the meaning of Irishpipes' quote, but I will leave her to correct me if I was mistaken. My interpretation of the quote is that while having XYZ letters on your shirt may bring certain attitudes or remarks as a group in general. On an individual level, your letter do not define you as a person. While you may not be able to change the reputation of your chapter as far as The Row is concerned, you as an individual can change people's expectations of you on a personal level. Essentially, that your personality can shine if you choose to, irrespective of your XYZ letters.

I quoted Irishpipes to add to my point in the first half of the final paragraph:

"I personally believe the opportunities open to a women who decides to go Greek more than outweighs the social cost of having a 'less successful' rush. Above all, the women who decide to accept their bids and be committed to their choices will more than likely find sisterhood, a wealth of college memories, and brilliant preparation for their futures."

Yes I do think your physical looks greatly influence your success with rush as whole, and yes PNMs need to be realistic and honest with themselves of their expectations. BUT, I still encourage every woman interested in sorority life to 'Go Greek', regardless of what her prospects during rush.

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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2306022) Tiers are indeed real. They just don't mean that much other than which chapters are most popular during rush and which fraternities they mix with.

I agree with this. However at the schools I am most familiar with, rush and mixing with fraternities is a huge part of sorority life.

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Originally Posted by DGTess (Post 2306059) ON SOME CAMPUSES.

Precisely why I said: "a certain endemic reality at some campuses".

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Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2306062) That's not necessarily true. At some chapters (of all tiers) who you know and your connections trumps "pretty" or "hot" every time. EVERY time.

This is actually a very fair point but in my experience the well-connected, also tend to be within the socially-accepted definitions of "pretty" or "hot".

I hope this follow-up post has clarified my intentions within my first post.

My point is that as long as you are getting mixers, it's not a huge difference being in a top tier or a bottom tier. The overall experience of a mixer is pretty much the same whether you are paired with Alpha Beta Popular or Zeta Gamma Mediocre.

Same thing with rush...if you are a chapter that struggles to make quota, yes, it will affect your experience, but a group of new members running toward your chapter on bid day is awesome no matter how many cheerleaders or science geeks you happen to get.

Of course, these things may SEEM like a huge deal to a teenager, but if you drop the comparisons and focus on your own experience, I promise it isn't that different from one chapter to the next.

In my first couple of weeks at business school, we had an alumna come speak to us about working at a prestigious consulting firm. During her talk, she made a comment about how being attractive and taller than average were factors in your ability to get hired and succeed in business. Obviously not the only factors, but that they were somewhere on the list of subconscious considerations that go into how people judge you.

While I agree that these factors (prejudices, whatever) exist across life, I bristle at the notion of calling them out without providing greater context to ALL the considerations that go into success in recruitment, business, life, etc. Otherwise, we run the risk of perpetuating shallow behavior both within our organizations and throughout the community that interacts with Greek organizations.

My general thoughts:
1) I have seen PLENTY of advice on GreekChat related to maximizing a PNM's appearance before recruitment: pick cute outfits, get your hair and nails done, do your makeup appropriately, etc. This is helpful, constructive advice that a PNM can take action on.

2) I'm shocked that most PNMs (observant ones, at least), wouldn't know that appearance plays a role in recruitment. Is it just a coincidence that the "top tier" chapters tend to have more attractive women than "bottom tier" ones? As you said, PNMs tend to also use appearance as a criteria themselves, although ease of conversation and comfort at the chapter tend to play a more important role. Any PNM who has heard about the tiers at their school will likely have heard them described in a context that heavily emphasizes appearance, particularly from male students.



I'm so confused by this. Telling PNMs to keep an open mind IS TELLING THEM TO CONSIDER EVEN THE CHAPTERS THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE. It emphasizes that you may not get your favorite chapters, and you need to give even your least favorite ones a chance, and a real chance, at that. It would be far more detrimental to say something like "go with your gut - you'll know where you belong".

Don't get me wrong - I think there's room for improving the way we describe the mutual selection process, but you can't rule out the incredible ability of people to hear what they want to hear.

Remember that by the nature of RFM and the current system of recruitment at most schools (Indiana excepted, of course), the vaaaast majority of PNMs will get placed in a chapter, if they truly stick with the process. Very few women are truly released from all chapters.

Like your experience at USC, I agree that at UCLA, I don't recall a single time I looked at GPA for freshman coming through recruitment - there just weren't any grade risks there that you could tell from HS GPA, and looking for differentiation among a group like that would be useless. Same thing for extra curricular activities.

So, this is the key point that I *think* you're trying to make: different schools have different "characteristics of differentiation". Some schools will use resume and GPA more heavily than others, because there is significant variance there. Some schools rely heavily on who you know and where you're from. Some schools rely more heavily on appearance and personality. They're all factors in the process, but depending on how the university has pre-screened the student population, and the social emphasis from the school, the major distinguishing characteristics for each PNM might be different.

Take UCLA for example:

GPA: Not a significant source of differentiation
Extra Curricular Activities: Not a significant source of differentiation
Letters of Recommendation: Not a significant source of differentiation (too few received, and regarded as a Southern thing rather than a hallmark of PNM excellence)
Who you Know in the Chapter: A potential source of differentiation, but not many PNMs had close relationships with anyone in the chapters
Legacy Status: A pretty good source of differentiation
Personality and Sociability: In my opinion, the most significant source of differentiation (many a "socially unrefined" PNM at UCLA)
Physical Appearance (including style and grooming): A pretty good source of differentiation
Significant source of Prestige (Campus athlete, Rose Queen, etc.): If you have it, a pretty good source of differentiation

So if you look at this list, you might conclude that UCLA recruitment is really superficial. Or you might conclude that all of the PNMs are exceptionally smart and accomplished women, and understand why personality, sociability and appearance become the distinguishing factors in recruitment success.

I think we've said many of the same things here, but the difference is that I tried to give a complete context and background to the entire process, rather than painting our organizations in such a shallow, detrimental light.

YES! Well this probably better articulated what was partly in my head when I started this thread

Yes, you do add context to the 'superficial differentiations', and forgetting to add context is something I frequently do. But I really do feel that for some schools we have to be very blunt about the attitude, or even importance, of 'superficial differentiations'

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you might conclude that UCLA recruitment is really superficial. Or you might conclude that all of the PNMs are exceptionally smart and accomplished women, and understand why personality, sociability and appearance become the distinguishing factors in recruitment success.

This I think sometimes results in PNMs locking onto the "well I'm an exceptionally smart and accomplished woman", but then forgetting the next half of the sentence.

Quote:

I bristle at the notion of calling them out without providing greater context to ALL the considerations that go into success in recruitment, business, life, etc.

I was giving the reader the benefit of doubt that they were aware of the 'acceptable' considerations that go into success and that they just needed to add particular and additional attention to the aforementioned 'superficial differentiations'.

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I have seen PLENTY of advice on GreekChat related to maximizing a PNM's appearance before recruitment

This is true but in my opinion that kind of advice on Greek Chat has a tone of this is additional preparation that may be helpful rather than, maximising your appearance is as mandatory as are recs.

Quote:

I'm shocked that most PNMs (observant ones, at least), wouldn't know that appearance plays a role in recruitment.

People on this board criticise the attitudes of PNMs (and their mothers) that they're somehow a special snowflake; PNMs should be aware that at some schools they are not unique in all the objective differentiations (like GPA, etc.); but the disappointed PNMs that post on this board don't seem to be aware of that.
I think even if there is a feeling on these boards of appearance being a factor, GCers often take a tacit approach to that advice. I do realise that negative body image is a serious concern within this demographic. So commenting on how a PNM "should" or "need" to look is controversial, unhealthy, and so avoided.
But I think for rush at some schools PNMs really need to be aware of how critical their appearance is, for better or worse. And advice on this should be clear rather than circumspect and alluded to.

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I'm so confused by this. Telling PNMs to keep an open mind IS TELLING THEM TO CONSIDER EVEN THE CHAPTERS THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE...

Perhaps I should correct my original paragraph to say:
"What is important is that the telling to PNMs at certain schools that they should "keep an open mind", "do not listen to the tent talk", "try to look past the reputation", etc, as the only kind of advice offered (without accepting the existence of 'superficial differentiations') would be disingenuous, even harmful. Only giving the kind of advice that sticks to the 'objective differentiations' can breed false hope or unrealistic expectations."
Thank you LAblondeGPhi, I have really appreciated your contributions to this conversation.

But the thing is, even in this day and age, "pretty" isn't a universal concept. Mizzou's dime piece is FSU's butterface. (And vice versa) Probably the best thing women can do appearance wise is to make sure they're dressed in the style that's popular on that campus, only to the point where they feel comfortable and the style is flattering. (If you have ugly feet don't wear strappy sandals even if everyone else does.)

It's hard to do this sometimes if you're coming straight from high school especially with uniforms becoming more prevalent.

As far as makeup, there are ookabillion tutorials on youtube. Which is great because these girls have the stones to go barefaced and prove anyone can do it. You don't have to be a model to start.

And I have news for you, we're not just telling pnms to keep an open mind for their own benefit. It's because we want our sisters on those campi to succeed as well. The thing is, anyone can get hung up on ANY sorority, not just a top tier one. It's stupid to do that.

I was doing the rounds surfing the Yahoo news feed and came across this article that y'all might find interesting. Imagine my surprise that Greek Chat and the OP are being quoted in this national article.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/welcome...188074988.html

"On the Greek Chat forum in a recent thread called “Am I pretty enough for rush?” someone under the name 28StGreek wrote, “At USC, a freshman PMN (potential new member)—what is going to really affect her rush is: who she is, who she knows, and especially how she looks. And if she does not have any recs, but looks like a Victoria’s Secret Angel, then she is probably going to get a full list of invites each round.” 28StGreek wrote that telling girls to keep an open mind is dangerous advice, and that it would be better to just admit the truth: “How a PNM physically looks, and her size, is a real factor in a PNM’s chances during rush; at some schools definitely, and perhaps at most schools.”"

Well bless my heart, I certainly made myself look ignorant and foolish. And I ended up doing exactly what LABlondeGPhi warned against.

I do stand by my meaning in what I was trying to write; but I definitely admit and accept that I should have articulated it much better, and I should have put my ideas in the proper context.

:rolleyes: