Will the Greek world ever desegregate?
 

Other than the few Blacks who pledge mostly White frats/sororities and vice-versa, will there ever be desegregation in the Greek community to the point where the ratio of Whites to Blacks in a given frat/sorority is anywhere close to 50/50? Even 40/60? Or will cultural/social differences prevent that from happening? If you think it will happen, how close do you think we are, and how does that reflect upon our society as a whole?

What do you all think? Be honest.

Depend on a lot of factors. Most fraternities and sororities in the New York State (I can't comment on other states because I don't know their situations) are desegregate. My chapter are quit mixed, as also with the other fraternities on my campus. Also visiting other chapters within NY, it's the same thing. Most of the chapters I have visited are in the North East, so I can't comment much on other parts.

I don't think that it's really so much of a greek issue as it is a general issue. I've honestly only got a few black friends and many of them I've lost touch with since we went seperate ways in college. I don't think it's for reasons of hatred or anything of that sort, I think it's a comfort thing. My friends always were knowing that they were welcome into any circle I was apart of, be there 30 or 0 other blacks, but I think many feel more comfortable associating with people more like them. To be honest, the majority of my friends are white males, as am I. The question I think could extend out to other ethnicities such as those of mexican decent, arab decent, and asian decent. Now while I'eve more asian friends than the others I think the general concern is that most people don't like to cross barriers self-imposed or not, and comfort is preferred to chance. that's just my view, but as I've said, I think it extends well beyond the greek system, but to the general nature of people themselves.

Cory

While I like to think that someday we will be desegregated, I don't think it will ever be 50/50 in most organizations, just because that's not what the population breakdown is. The 2000 census said that 12.3% of the US population is black, 3.6% is Asian, and 75.1% is white. About 13% of the population, mostly whites, is Hispanic. Of course, these numbers vary dramatically by region of the country. I am pretty certain that the Asian population here in Seattle is a lot more than 4%.

Still, I'd like to see a day where race doesn't matter, at least as far as GLO membership. While there's progress out there, there's not always as much as we'd like.

Good post SigmaChiCard.

I didn't mean to suggest that it was exclusive to the Greek world (which is why I asked how it reflects on our society). I agree with you that it is a general social issue, but it is magnified in frats/sororities because they are social by nature and divide individuals into groups.

Arya's comments show that the Greek world is indeed a reflection of the surrounding society, because the area in the north where Arya is located is more multicultural than the south, where I was born and raised. As a result, the fraternities and sororities there are more mixed. Attitudes toward diversity are also a factor and sometimes differ by region (generally speaking -- each individual obviously has their own views).

I also suppose that the racial make-up of a particular college/university is a major factor. More diverse universities creates an atmosphere more condusive to diverse frats/sororities. Taking steps to increase the number of minorities in colleges/universities can influence the mix of races in fraternities and sororities, but only if attitudes toward diversity are positive.

Good point about the population breakdown FuzzieAlum. What about the make-up even reflecting the breakdown of the general population? Do you think we'll get close anytime soon? Is it necessarily a bad thing if we don't?

Re: Will the Greek world ever desegregate?
 

No.

I dont think the greek systems will become desegregated.

sigmachicard said it best - its about a level of comfort.

What we have to remember is that people from any race have to WANT to join orgs that are of a different race, whether the orgs. are treating them comfortably or not. We cant force ppl to do things, especially if ppl are talking slack from anyone or any race about doing it.
I hope someday it can be 50/50 and in someplaces it is. But I see it happening in the next 20- 50 years maybe.

Well, it couldn't ever be 50/50, like Fuzzie said it isn't possibe.

But if your school has a certian amount of any other ethnicity then it really should coinside with your group's make up. But I assume it cannot really ever be that perfect b/c of the NPHC groups on campus and how attractive they are.

here, the nphc fraternities and sororities are a popular choice. My fraternity has had guys of many different backgrounds in it although its mostly been white men. From what ive seen, its either nphc or no greek organizations at all. also one thing to take into consideration, from the past where all greek organizations were pretty much all white people, they have legacies that will be white as well. how much of an effect that will have who knows, but its something to think about.

I don't think it's really our choice. People who want to look into Greek life, whatever their ethnicity, are the ones making the choice. If no one encourages them, or even lets them know it's an option, then they won't. By the same coin, if people get out their and advertise and say we want you to be a prt of us, then they will. I don't think it's something that can be forced (yes, a reference to forced integration, but maybe I just don't understand it all). Besides, when did ethnicity become a qualifying reason for membership or not? I thought we ask people based on their ideals...

I totally agree with UMGirl. There has to be African American women who want to join NPC sororities and Caucasian women who want to join NPHC sororities. It's that simple. I don't think the demand for this is even present in most places, because for as long as we've all been around, we've been told we're the white sororities and these are the black sororities and what not. Now mind you, at some schools, I'm sure that the minority population may want to join NPC groups and white women join NPHC groups, but I would think those definitelyl aren't the norms, but the exceptions.

But it would be nice one day :) UMGirl, aren't you an african american woman in an NPC sorority? You rock :)

Shadokat, you are absolutely correct. I am an african american in an NPC.
I dont think we will ever know if the demand actually is present or not. I knew of many minority woman who were interested in NPC orgs. but didnt join b/c of the slack that they could have come under for it. And im sure there are plenty of caucasian men or woman who probably would have joined an NPHC org if they knew they wouldnt come under fire for it. You do have people such as myself, who will say ya know what I can see your concer but, screw you i'll do what feels right for me. My african american friends at school were a lil hestitant at first whn i said i was looking at the NPC orgs. but when I came back from the fiest meeting and they asked how i was treated and were they nice, etc. they were all for me joining and even wanted to come to the parties. Even though we all have a voice, we all know that outside voices do play a certain role in our actions. After all these orgs are historically white , black or whatever. There maybe chapters that are all this or all that, but as an org most have a mixture of races.
For some reason kind of suprises me that ppl dont think it will ever be 50/50. This is just my opinion but its statements like that, that will keep it from ever becoming 50/50. It may not happen in our lifetime, but I think it will. Who knows what will happen, after all whoever thought that Hispanics/Latinos would ever be the majority and caucasians the minority? Whoever thought we would go into space? Who thought slavery would end? Ok ill stop :)
Here's what I say, It all starts with you. If your friend or better yet your child came home and told you that they wanted to join or had become involved with a GLO thats not historically there race, would you be bale to accept it? Think about it. Of couse your going to have the obvious hesitations, but when it comes down to it, can you deal?
We need to change our OWN attitudes before we can change society.

*gets off her " 2 cent, into this whole no bad karma/negativty thing" soapbox* :D

If you mean integration in terms of racial parity - there are multicultural sororities (and fraternities) out there already. Many of the professional fraternities and sororities are well integrated. Gamma Sigma Sigma sorority is well integrated, with chapters at predominately white institutions and historically black colleges and universities. Alpha Phi Omega is the same way. But desegregation doesn't technically mean "achieve racial parity" - an organization can consider itself desegregated when one member of a different race becomes a member.

I look at the sororities at UBC near me, and they have Asian, Indian, Black, and Caucasian members -- and the racial parity seems quite good. When I remember my days as an undergraduate, almost all of the NPC sororities had Asian members - therefore, they were desegregated, but not necessarily integrated. Almost all of the IFC fraternities had Asian members; one or two even had African American members, thus, they were desegregated. When I was an undergraduate, we had Caucasian members of Kappa Alpha Psi on my campus. One of the appointed national officers to my brother fraternity (Phi Beta Sigma) is white. I have Asian, Arabic, Caucasian, and multiethnic sorors.

So to answer your question in a roundabout way, the answer is "they already have desegregated, but they're not integrated." As to whether organizations will become fully integrated, I think that largely depends on local attitudes, exposure to different ethnicities, a scaling back on the whole "legacy" system, and -- I hate to bring it up here -- continued support for programs that work to increase and retain racial diversity on college campuses.

First off I want to hi to everyone, and thank you for all your comments. This is an interesting topic. Being a Black man in a Fraternity founded by Educated White Males, I will say this.... Many fraternities have atleast one black person in them, or mixed of some variation. I believe it will be like that will all GLO not because they want it to happen, but because it will be law. Just as the term pledge has been challenged and changed my most organizations so will the racial differences. I believe the first step into doing so is to get rid of the term BGLO, GLO, and others and just say what it is. A Fraternity based on ideals to make the individual a better person to the community and to the school. I believe if there is a need to be different then let it be for what we stand for and the different ideals that are founders have set before us. That in my opinion is segregated enough.

Fraternally,
D

Desegregation
 

Maybe some of you read the New republic...if you don't it's a very good bit of literature, and although at times it's a bit too liberal for my taste, it has great writers. But anyway they ran a piece last week on the greek system at Alabama. I know the story has probably been discussed before but you may learn somethin new:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/020402...rle020402.html

-Rudey
--I am man, hear me roar!

UMGirl, I really commend you on making your own decisions and not letting a little slack get in the way of your choices. I went to a predominately white school (96%), and we had two African American women in our chapter. Both of them took a lot of heat for not joining the one NPHC chapter on campus, but they both were happy in our chapter. It's a shame this kind of thing happens, because I met a bunch of African American women working in the Student Union that I would've loved to have as sisters, but most of them were very adverse to doing it. I hope more women, both African American joining NPC and white women joining NPHC, will take chances and give it a try.

Re: Desegregation
 

Just once, I would like to read an article on Melody Twilley that doesn't mention the Jeep Cherokee her daddy bought for her! If there had been an article written on me when I rushed, I wonder how prominently my 1980 Toyota Tercel would have been featured? :confused:

Re: Re: Desegregation
 

LOL!!!! I hear ya, Killarney! And what about my '84 Honda Accord? :D

Rudey, thanks for that excellent link. I think it was very revealing with respect to student attitudes and the ways in which a "NOKD" (not our kind, dear) attitude prevails on both sides of the Black/White racial equation.

Re: Re: Desegregation
 

C'mon folks, let's not reduce this article to being about what Melody Twilley drives or doesn't drive. I think with respect to her surroundings (U of A where people in NPC/IFC groups generally come from a background of privilege) it was important to show that she had money, she came from privilege, and all things being equal (except her skin colour) she was exactly the same as the peer group she sought membership in. Maybe at your campus(es) status and money don't play as big a part in rush activities and where you end up, but at big Southern schools, who you are and your class status plays a big part in your acceptance.

Melody Twilley is a symbol. She's probably a very nice person, but she's a symbol of something greater, and I think we should try to remember that.

I think what organization you pledge is based on a comfort level like some of you mentioned. If you are/were never exposed to any other race but your own, then you might be more hesistant to join an organization with people who are primarily a race different than you. I am an Afr. Am female and I could have seen myself as a KD because they are a cool group of females or even as a ZphiB because I truly believe they are women of class, but I chose to be different and join a multicultural sorority. It takes a certain type of person to be different and break the norm. Moreso than the race of the people in whatever org., you pledge because you BELIEVE in what they stand for.

A couple years ago during a student organization fair an older black lady came up to me and asked if there were any African Americans in my sorority. I said, "no." She said, "why not?" My answer was simply I don't know why not. The school that I went to had a large number or African American students and it just seems to me that they just preferred to join Alpha Kappa Alpha or Delta Sigma Theta. Which I don't see anything wrong with that. I joined my sorority because that is where I felt comfortable at and I feel that is how everyone should look at it. I don't think you should look at it as a black/white issue. Different organizations have different values and standards, you have to think about why you want to join a particular sorority and if they are right for you. It doesn't matter to me what your skin color is, it is what is on the inside that counts!! And I truly believe that!

Our organization fair took place a couple of days ago and we had a ton of girls that were interested in signing up for rush, black and white. I hope our new pledge class is awesome!!!!!

Have a nice day :)

SoTrue1920-

I was referring to integration more so than desegregation (though BOTH are still issues depending on the school/region) -- sorry I mis-typed. I agree with your comments about integration.
In reference to the article that Rudey posted, I also agree that we shouldn't take the reference to what type of vehicle she drives out of context. It was a great article, and I have a lot to say about it later when I have more time.

KillarneyRose and dzrose93-

Did you all have a point you were trying to get across about the authors mentioning the Cherokee? It seems that it may have rubbed you all the wrong way, being that it was the first and only thing you all mentioned on this subject. I'm just trying to understand why it stood out and why you all feel the way you do. Please help me understand.

Thanks.

Alias,

The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself, and in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. The truth is, it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive, what part of the city you live in, or what your daddy does when you go through Rush. It's how the girls themselves perceive you and if they feel you would be a good "fit" in their organization.

To me, the author of the article, in mentioning all the material things that Twilley possesses, was trying to allege that the only reason she wasn't offered a bid was because of her race. The fact that so often gets overlooked is that there are MANY Caucasian girls who weren't offered bids either - and many of them also had nice cars and other material things. However, their stories and the make/model of their cars were never published in any newspaper or magazine.

And, the point that I was making about the Cherokee is that I (who attended a Southern university, by the way) didn't have to have a nice car to get a bid when I went through Rush. It wasn't even close to being an issue, so I think it's humorous when it pops up in every Twilley article I come across. That's all, really. The whole article was interesting, but that one tidbit struck me as funny.

I don't think so.

Of course, I've heard about this story before, but I don't go to school there, and I wasn't involved in it. Still, I never got the impression she had an agenda, certainly not the first time she rushed.

But you know what, I think most rushees have an agenda. Some want to prove how cool they are by getting into the most "elite" chapter. I mean, we've seen prospective rushees post questions to that effect on here. Others want to prove that sororities are snobby or silly and go through as a joke. Some people desperately want to belong after not belonging in high school.

Now I'm not saying any of those are the best reasons for joining a sorority, but that hasn't stopped girls in ANY of those categories from getting a bid. I do understand that this is a competitive campus where lots of girls don't get bids. And maybe she was cut for reasons having nothing to do with race. I don't know, I wasn't there. But I don't think that having an agenda necessarily gets a rushee cut.

The one thing I think this article does show is that race means more some places than others.

"The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself" -- dzrose

Just like it is possible she had an "agenda," it is also possible that people assumed she had alterior motives because she told her story and because she was being used as an example in the movement to desegregate the Greek system at Alabama. The "name" she made for herself could have just been all in their heads. Besides, if she WAS trying to prove a point, instead of rejecting her because of it, wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to judge her solely on her qualities to see if she was the right material and prove everybody wrong if she was? Why would you teach her a lesson by helping her prove her point?

"in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. The truth is, it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive, what part of the city you live in, or what your daddy does when you go through Rush. It's how the girls themselves perceive you and if they feel you would be a good "fit" in their organization." -- dzrose

That's not true for all of them. It depends on the fraternity/sorority and what school you go to. Ideally, it's supposed to be the way you described, but it hasn't been achieved yet. If that's the way it was at your school, I'm glad. But at many large southern universities that's not the way it is, and it's not just in the south either. People of particular social status get preferential treatment all the time, in frats/sororities and in many other places as well. I don't think it was irrelevant to the article, it was just meant to create a picture of Twilley's background.

"To me, the author of the article, in mentioning all the material things that Twilley possesses, was trying to allege that the only reason she wasn't offered a bid was because of her race. The fact that so often gets overlooked is that there are MANY Caucasian girls who weren't offered bids either - and many of them also had nice cars and other material things. However, their stories and the make/model of their cars were never published in any newspaper or magazine." -- dzrose

You have a point, but to investigate potential racism you have to start somewhere. The question is, if you're not convinced in this situation, what would it take to prove to you that she was excluded because of race?

It's great that you're social status didn't affect your situation, but that's not true for everyone, especially when you're Black.

No, everything is not racism, but everything is not "not racism" either. With the track records of schools like Alabama, I'm sure you can understand why African-Americans keep eyes open for these situations.

Hi Alias23!

Aaaaagh! I just spent 20 minutes typing a reply and then I got booted so I'll just try and distill what I wanted to say because I have to get the kids tucked into bed!

Ok, first off I have no idea if Miss Twilley had an agenda or not. It is my gut feeling that she did not because rush is a giant pain in the butt and a lot of work for something if you don't really, really want it.

About the Cherokee...I guess it just amazed me that in each and every article I read about this young woman (five or six of them), the Jeep her daddy bought her was mentioned. Owning a nice car is not a prerequisite for membership in an NPC organization. Not at my public university, not at my biological sister's Ivy League school (she's 6 years younger than me and got the '80 Tercel when I graduated! lol). I know people who went to Ole Miss, UGA and UCLA, all of which have a brutal rush. They all ended up in sororities even though two of them drove clunkers and the third rode the bus. :)

The New Republic article about Miss Twilley's experience was very similar to the other ones I read. All of the authors gave a cursory mention to her impressive intelligence (a sentence or two about her graduating from the Alabama School of Math and Science) but chose to concentrate on things like her desire for her nail polish to match her dress, her affluence and her political affiliation. If they were trying to convince people how well she would have fit into an NPC organization, they should have interviewed her teachers, friends and minister. They should have concentrated more on her grades and extracurricular activities or any volunteer work she may do. THAT is what sorority sisters talk to rushees about, not how much their parents make or what car they drive.

Also, Mr. Zengerle did Miss Twilley no favors when he quoted her as saying, "If you have a need, you probably won't get in." when asked about financial aid for sorority dues. It's almost as if he's saying "Sorority girls are snobs and, as you can see, Melody Twilley is also a snob, ergo, she should have been extended a bid!" The sad part is that Miss Twilley was probably joking or caught off guard by this journalist when she made that statement but he put it in anyway because it made for juicy copy!

One last thing I would like to mention is that I honestly hope that she wasn't denied a bid because of her race. But, I would like to know more about the other women who weren't given bids before I could judge that. I know that Alabama rush is very, very, very competitive and that it is difficult for any sophomore to get a bid. I also know it's impossible without recs, but no mention has been made in any article I read about her having her recs in order.

Alias23, I hope that cleared things up for you a bit! If you would like to discuss this further please feel free to drop me a PM any time!

Best,
Tracy

This is, as my dear mother used to say, like wiping your a$$ with a hoop - just around and around. Maybe she didn't get in because she was black, and maybe she didn't get in because she rubbed everyone the wrong way and would have done so whether she was black,white, green or purple. Unless we look into the heads of every sorority sister from Bama, we'll never know.

All I know is, I've read some of the stories of rushees on here that really loved this or that house, or only got through first round and did not get bids - and these girls are EXTREMELY upset. The last thing they're thinking of doing is being interviewed about their experience for the school paper (not to mention national papers).

With all due respect dzrose, did you read the article? I'm not trying to be nasty; I'm really trying to understand how you got such a different perception from the same piece I read. :) What I got out of it is Melody Twilley was a girl who came from privilege who wanted to join the same organizations as two of her close high school friends. Nowhere in her statements did I get a sense that she had some sort of "agenda". (I got that from the faculty member who adopted Twilley as his personal pet project).

If the people in question had the perception that Twilley was trying to "prove" something, therein lies the real problem - that an African American girl can't pursue membership in an NPC sorority at Alabama without it looking like she has some sort of "agenda". People are already looking at her with suspicion and mistrust without even taking the time to get to know her. She's a threat by virtue of her mere presence -- and that is prejudice in it's purest form.

Can someone from an NPC/NIC organization answer this question? Is determining whether someone has the means to afford the cost of membership part of seeing if someone's a "good fit"? If true, then is Twilley's statement about "having a need" really that much of a gaffe? Isn't financial responsibility to the organization a big part of membership?

I went to school in New York State. My sorority was quite integrated as were many of the sororities. The fraternities unfortunately did not accurately reflect the racial diversity of New York. The sad reality is many of my Haitian and African American sisters were given a difficult time by some of the black students. Interestingly, the sisters of the historically BGLO's were very supportive of the NPC sororities and vice versa. My Latina and Asian sisters did not have the same experience of negative feedback to my knowledge.

I guess I was naive about the issue of racial diversity in sororities. I just thought that as a nation we were past this. I gained a lot from my sorority experience and my involvement with the greek system in general. I built friendships with many different people and peoples in my sorority, other NPC sororities, and NPHC groups. This definitely enhanced my college experience and helped make me a well rounded person.

Financial Responsibility...
 

I can only speak about the NPC's and NIC's on my campus but I think it goes pretty much for the all of them....
Yes, financial responsiblity is a big part in keeping in Good Standing with an org. But I think that would be the case whether your in NPHC, NIC, NPC, Locals or whatever.
There were many ppl at my school who are in Greek orgs and dont have it easy financially.Alot of us were on financial aid and some worked 2-3 jobs just to stay in school. But the orgs so everything in their power to help you out, whether its setting up a financial plan or giving you a chapter or org. scholarship to help out. So no, speaking for the NPC's and NIC's and even NPHC's on my campus....we dont eliminate you if we dont think you can afford it. I'd take a hard working struggling sister any day over one that flaunts mommy and daddy's cash all the time.
At UM you could tell who was rich or poor anyways unless they did flaunt it. There were kids there who's parents (keyword is parents) were worth billions and they walked around wearing thrift store clothes and driving old beat up cars.

"The New Republic article about Miss Twilley's experience was very similar to the other ones I read. All of the authors gave a cursory mention to her impressive intelligence (a sentence or two about her graduating from the Alabama School of Math and Science) but chose to concentrate on things like her desire for her nail polish to match her dress, her affluence and her political affiliation. If they were trying to convince people how well she would have fit into an NPC organization, they should have interviewed her teachers, friends and minister. They should have concentrated more on her grades and extracurricular activities or any volunteer work she may do. THAT is what sorority sisters talk to rushees about, not how much their parents make or what car they drive." -- KillarneyRose

I agree that putting additional emphasis on grades, extracurricular activities or volunteer work would have helped the article's purpose tremendously, and I too wish they would have mentioned more about those things. However, I still believe that the references to Twilley's appearance and social status are being taken out of context. What the writer was trying to do was show that Twilley didn't fit any of the racial stereotypes attributed to Blacks, because those stereotypes are the rationale racists use when committing discriminatory acts. The statements about how Twilley carried herself and her social/financial status were there to disprove those stereotypes and show that she was not "beneath" the sorority sisters who met with her, as people who commit racist behavior often tend to believe about Blacks. Where the writer went wrong was when there wasn't additional emphasis on the things you mentioned earlier, because those things are more important in general. Just try and understand that when dealing with potential racism, particularly in a social institution, those things have to be addressed because Blacks are subject to such stereotypes, superficial as they may be.

The Greek world as a whole receives a bum rap with people perceiving it as superficial, and I think that's why some people get upset when "cars" and "nail polish" are mentioned. Some people think those things are being emphasized in the article because to them they stand out, but in reality Twilley's Cherokee and nail polish were a very small part of the article (mentioned only once I think). Please don't let it destract you from the point of the article.

Thanks for your comments KillarneyRose! You really helped me understand your perspective and brought up some good points!

Of course, I can only speak from my experience on my campus, but we did not determine whether someone had the means to afford membership. We made sure to give out financial information (during third party at formal rush; posted on the chapter website) and answered any questions girls had. We talked up payment plans, etc. We figured it was then the PNM's responsibility to decide if she could afford it or not, not ours. Even if their parents were fabu rich, after all, they might just refuse to pay for membership in a GLO.

On the other hand, dues were relatively inexpensive on my campus. Most students could come up with the necessary $200. Maybe if dues are higher it's more of a concern. But I suspect that in most cases, sororities and fraternities figure the PNM is smart enough to make a budget, talk to her parents, consider getting a job, etc.

Thanks for your responses, FuzzieAlum and UMGirl :)

There have a been a few GCErs who questioned my original response to Alias, so I'll try to explain myself here:

Yes, I read the article about Twilley. Yes, I've read several articles about Twilley. And, yes, I know people who have actually spoken to Twilley herself - and I was referring to those peoples' impressions of her, not anything in the articles, when I said that it appeared that Twilley may have had an "agenda" when she went through rush the second time. If you read the articles, you would get nothing more than the picture of a privileged girl who went through Rush and got cut for apparently no reason other than the color of her skin. But you can't always take articles at face value, and a lot of people unfortunately do.

The main point that I was trying to make when responding to Alias is that there are MANY, MANY girls who get cut from formal rush once -- and often more than once -- who appear on the outside to be qualified because of their financial status and/or high school GPA. However, it is only an African-American girl who gets the headlines when she doesn't get a bid at a Southern school. The Caucasian girls who are cut don't even merit a blurb in a college paper, much less a spot on the front page of a national. There is definitely something to be said about that, and I don't feel like I'm being a racist for pointing it out.

SoTrue1920 said it perfectly: Melody Twilley is a symbol. She's probably a very nice person, but she's a symbol of something greater, and I think we should try to remember that.

My question is: WHY is Twilley a symbol? Because she was cut from Rush? No, that can't be it - because 1,000's of girls are cut from Rush every year. Twilley claims that it must be because she's black. And the media subtly alleges that the NPC sororities in the South must all be filled with racists because they didn't give a bid to a black girl whose family is a member of the upper class financial bracket.

I'm sorry, but it's just not that cut and dried, and I don't think the media should try to make it appear that way -- and I don't think Twilley should have raised such a ruckus about it. If a white girl had made such a stink on campus about not getting a bid, most people would have looked at her in wide-eyed bemusement, shaking their heads and thinking to themselves, "um, so you didn't get a bid... time to move on with life..."

Because Twilley is black, this turned into a huge racial debate, and I just don't see why. It would be different if the girls in the houses had treated her terribly during Rush or showed any sign that they disliked Twilley because of her race. But, even in the article, Twilley comments on how sweet the girls were and how upbeat they were during the parties. I suppose (to answer another of your questions, Alias) if there was any evidence to prove that Twilley was discriminated against because of her race, I would feel differently. However, not receiving a bid doesn't strike me as a racist move. Like I've stated repeatedly, lots of girls don't get bids and the fact that Twilley is among the list doesn't prove a thing.

Alias states that: "Besides, if she WAS trying to prove a point, instead of rejecting her because of it, wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to judge her solely on her qualities to see if she was the right material and prove everybody wrong if she was? Why would you teach her a lesson by helping her prove her point?"

My rebuttal to that is: How do you know that the sororities DIDN'T judge Twilley solely on her qualities? Normally, when a person goes through Rush 2 times and gets cut by every sorority on campus, there is usually a pretty good reason for it. It could be something as simple as she didn't seem interested in the sorority and the girls didn't want to waste a bid on someone who wasn't interested. There are a million "maybes", but race is the only reason that anyone in the media has ever offered as a cause for the cut. The fact is, we just don't know. We weren't in the houses, and we don't know how Twilley and the sisters interacted. So, why should we jump to the conclusion that it was a racist move on the sororities' part?

Also, sororities don't exist to teach people lessons. During Rush, the groups are interested in one thing: finding girls who meet the standards that their organization was founded upon, who get along with the other sisters, and who seem to show an interest in their particular sorority.

Now, back to my original comment about what kind of car I drove when I went through Rush... I just find it extremely funny and absurd that so much emphasis has been placed on what kind of car a person who was cut from Rush drives, when cars don't even matter. Nowhere on any NPC rush application is there a spot for rushees to list the make/model of their car, and "What kind of car do you drive?", regardless of what some people might think, is NOT an age-old question asked by sorority girls at an NPC rush party.

Yes, we want to make sure that the girls we pick up are going to be able to handle their financial obligations to the sorority. But, no, we're not snobs for feeling that way. Would a department store give you a credit card without asking first if you can afford the payments? Would a gym give you a 1-year membership without checking to see if you can pay the dues?

A sorority is a business much like any other, and we should not have to apologize for "watching our backs" and making sure that the girls to whom we offer bids can actually afford the cost of socials, formals, house upkeep, etc. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean that we only offer bids to girls who drive top of the line vehicles and have a trust fund set up by daddy. We also take girls who hold down jobs in order to pay their sorority dues, and, in my case, girls who drive older model, less attractive cars. :) So, my point about the car is that it seems like people OUTSIDE of the sororities are making a bigger deal about a rushee's material assets than the sororities themselves.

That's really the only point I was trying to make. I apologize if I've offended anyone with these or past comments in this thread.

SoTrue, I wasn't trying to infer that Twilley had an agenda by going through Rush the first time and I do apologize. Re-reading my original statement, I can see how my words could be a little confusing. Let me clarify a little.

I'm sure that, originally, she probably WAS trying to get into an organization with her two high school friends, and was upset when she didn't receive a bid (for whatever reasons). However, she turned it into an issue by going through Rush a second time AFTER publicly stating that she felt racial reasons were the cause of her cut the first time.

If someone had attempted to gain membership into a BGLO and failed (for whatever reasons), publicly proclaimed that they feel they were excluded from joining an NPHC sorority because they were white, and then attempted to go through your intake process again -- wouldn't you be a little skeptical as to their reasons for doing so? You already know what is foremost in that person's mind because they've stated it for everyone to hear, and you're naturally going to question the person's motives a little. Does that make you prejudiced? I don't think it does. I think it makes you a realist.

I hope this helps you understand my view a little better, and, again, I apologize for my unclear words earlier. No offense intended. :)

When I originally read the article (thanks Rudey for posting the link) my first reaction was : who is Twilia? I've never heardor read about this?
Now,after reading all the post, I feel like I have to add my $1.00 to this conversation.

Maybe Twilia did not receive a bid because(your guess is as good as mine!!!):
1. her race
2. her qualifications
3. bid quota
4. not a good fit with her chosen sorority
5. because __________(fill in the blank)


1.) Now correct me if I am wrong, but are NPC/NIC orgs required to let rejected PNM know WHY they did not receive a bid? It seems to me that by simply saying WHY she was not accepted (whether before or after she went "public")would have cleared everything up right then and there.

2.) Why is it SO HARD for some of you to believe that Twilia was not picked up because she was black? I am not saying that this is the reason why because like most of you, I DO NOT KNOW!!! Some of you made the point that we must be careful when reading articles from the outside media, because they usually will present the negative or bad aspects of GLO's, but yet you then try and use these same "biased"article to back up your points.

3.) Racism still exist in today's society. If you don't believe me please go and check out http://www.tolerance.org. Or how about the Auburn Univ. incident? Let's get real people. As long as you try to just sweep these types of issues under a rug, they will continue to come back to haunt us.

Like I have stated earlier, none of us knows why Twilia was rejected, except for the sorority members involved.

On my campus, you go to the office to see whether you have a bid card or not. If you didnt get one then there is no explanation, but they tell you not to let it deter you and that there is always winter rush which is more comfortable and less competitive.
There are tooo many reason for why a girl may not get asked back, and if your campus has the computerized system, its even more difficult to explain, because even though a sorority may have loved you. The computer will match the first 42 girls who wanted that sorority (and 42 is the quota for XYZ), if you're 43 you're kinda SOL. Truthfully youd probably have to give a reason to over 400 girls depending on the school as to why the didnt get a bid.