Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298181)

hi all,
i will keep this vague as i do not want to associate any of this with my university or sorority.

however, i've searched all through these forums and can't seem to find any specific advice to help me in my situation.

i am a member who has been recommended for termination by my house's standards committee. it was for reasons of personal conduct that they felt represented the sorority poorly.

i disagree with their decision and feel i have been unfairly targeted and treated poorly throughout all my years in the group.

at this point, the decision is up to nationals. i want to present my side as best as possible to avoid further punishment that i feel is unfair.

i realize in similar threads the advice most commenters give is "it varies from chapter to chapter, read the bylaws, etc."

i have done all this, and have the right to write a letter on my behalf and request a meeting (at my expense) with the members of the national board of directors.

it might be a longshot, but i'm wondering if anyone reading this has been involved in a similar situation (either as the "accused" or as a standards board, executive board, or adult employee of nationals or chapter advisor) who would have any more information or advice about how i should go about this process.

for instance, i have so much to say that i could probably write a novel as my "letter"… lol. they indicated that there is no maximum length, but obviously being somewhat concise is going to be necessary (i don't want to send them something so long they just skip it or something) so obviously i'm going to have to pick and chose what to highlight, and figured that if there was anyone out there with experience in the area, they might have a better idea than my guesses as to what is most important to emphasize.

i would assume that the best strategy is to emphasize my positive qualities and contributions to the chapter. also, like i said i've been going through similar situations for years. in fact, i was on probation for quite a long time. even though i was so resentful and mad at first because i felt it was really unfair and do think that the members on the disciplinary committee put me on probation not because they were concerned for me or the chapter, but because they personally didn't like me so they compiled every instance they could as infractions, even though a lot had grey area. not going to lie, being on probation totally sucked and if i had the choice of if i could turn back time whether or not i'd wanna be probation for that time, i'd choose no. but, in retrospect i really have seen the silver lining. even though i don't think i was a bad sister to begin with, i think all my hard work trying to get back in good standing made me so much better. i really feel that i learned and grew soooo much because of my probation, as miserable as it was, so i think if anything my past history of infractions/probations should be regarded as a reason why i'm a stronger member than others now, not as a reason why i'm a weaker one who should immediately be terminated upon any disciplinary conflict.

however, because they could read all that and be like "sorry you're a good person but rules are rules so we have to terminate you anyway because you have more infraction reports than anyone else in your chapter" so i also think it's important to include a portion about how that's not an accurate representation of my chapter's behavior (there are many sisters who do really bad and illegal things, the only difference is that they don't get reported).

also, the chapter itself is in really bad shape in my opinion. they've been on probation many times, but are still breaking many rules and conducting business poorly. instead of making efforts to become a better sisterhood, they spend time having workshops and educating members on how to hide this stuff from nationals or any other sorority official who comes to evaluate. i really want to expose this stuff to nationals, because i am one of the few members in my chapter who actually cares about the REAL values of this particular sorority (its purpose, the philanthropy, the sisterhood, etc.) more than partying, so even if my membership ultimately does get terminated, i care a lot about my sorority on a national level, so i think they need to know about these things.

however, i'm concerned if i include this information (i do have some evidence and documentation) it will reflect poorly on me for being a "tattle-tale" or they'll think i'm just lying about everything because i want to get revenge on the chapter for getting me in trouble or something.

does anyone have any thoughts or helpful input on my situation?

i realize some people may read this and think "well then why do you still want to be in the sorority if you think there's all those issues". my response to that is that i don't want to be terminated because even if i don't want to be affiliated with the collegiate chapter at my university, it would still allow me to support the national philanthropy and sisterhood through an alumna organization.


thanks in advance for any help! i hope no one finds anything here offensive. i have good intentions!

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298188)

thanks for your reply!

what's complicated about the infractions of the past is when this all initially happened the proceedings of my disciplinary meetings were very vague about most of the infractions. i couldn't list the exact infractions that are in my "record" or whatever because even when i asked they wouldn't tell me.

although i don't wish to slander anyone or disclose personal or private info on this forum, i'm making sure that no school, sorority, or individuals can be identified based on my statements.

i do think it's important to disclose, not just on this post but in my correspondence with the board, that my early disciplinary hearing meetings mostly consisted of the older girls yelling at me, personally insulting me, and using lots of curse words. clearly, the reports that they sent to nationals about these hearings must have included inaccurate information. up until now, i've never had a chance to communicate my side of the story.

so, back to your original point… although i'm not sure what exactly is on my "long list of infractions," i will admit that there were rules i broke in the past that i shouldn't have (albeit i do not agree that they were serious). for instance, in my state, technically it's a law that you're not allowed to drive over any of the lines in parking lots, but just because you do that doesn't mean you should be arrested.

furthermore, even if all of the initial infractions were documented, that was years ago, and since i was watched under a microscope the whole time since i was on probation since, and the fact that they finally reinstated me off probation, i think that shows that my actions several years ago are not a reflection of who i am now.

i think that the most recent incident should be considered separately from my infractions from years ago. as for this incident, there's grey area as to whether or not i "broke a rule" because it falls under the category of "representing the sorority poorly" and that my actions made the sorority look bad. a rule like this is very subjective, and up to interpretation. i feel it's important to call certain injustices i've experienced because i don't think the situation would be handled the same way if it were another member.

so, i'm hoping i can successfully represent myself as a good member of the sorority. i think the decision here ultimately comes down to a character judgement of whether or not i'm "bad PR" for the sorority, i just want to make sure the decision makers have the right information to make that decision fairly. i just worry that they won't be able to because for years the only thing they've ever heard about me are negative (possibly untrue) reports from the disciplinary committee, and never about all the good stuff i do.

again, i appreciate your input, especially that ranting and blaming others can make it sound like i'm not taking responsibility. but i think the decision being made here would be different if certain information were omitted. for instance, if i had the same record in an exemplary chapter that had thorough supervision and documentation of all meetings… and the infractions were evidence based (unable to be manipulated by opinion or hearsay)… and there wasn't so much grey area, confusion, or misrepresentation.

pretty much, it's my word against my chapter's leaders about whether or not i'm a good member. at least some of my past infractions were rooted in mistakes i made or rules i broke, but i "did my time" and was already punished for them, then judged to be changed enough to be readmitted into the sorority. nationals would obviously be inclined to take the side of a group of leaders rather than one member who isn't an officer… but i think if they knew how corrupt the leadership, members, and operations of the chapter were, they wouldn't be inclined to find the word of the other members as so credible.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298191)

at this point, i was recommended for termination by the chapter's disciplinary committee, there was a chapter wide vote on whether i should be terminated or probation (i don't know what the results of the vote were), this information was sent to nationals, who sent a letter to me saying that i'm on probation until a final decision is made. before that decision is made, i have the chance to write my letter and meet with them to present my side. so, technically, they haven't terminated me yet… although disciplinary procedures are well on their way.

i know it differs for each organization, but i've thoroughly read my bylaws over and over and based off what i've seen i don't know if there is a policy on this or if it's ever been addressed or considered.

Based on what you know, are you saying you think at this point I'd have the option to voluntarily resign, even though the disciplinary action has already begun? furthermore, wouldn't my chances of being reinstated later be very very slim if they knew i resigned with termination pending?

what you're saying makes sense though, about how they wouldn't want to go back once they've made the termination decision, but i'm pretty sure the chapter's bylaws view later reinstatement as a possibility for both those who resigned and those who are terminated.

would you suggest maybe i include in my correspondence with them proposition of resigning with agreed reinstatement or something? like i'd agree to resign for 3 years or something as long as i was "guaranteed" reinstatement (unless i did anything wrong in that period)?

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298192)

thanks! unfortunately, the organization only recently converted to a system where meeting minutes are electronic, and until very recently (like within the last month or two) i never saw or was allowed to see any of my meeting minutes, even upon request. i don't know if this was due to the organization's policy that has since been changed, or if it was due to the previous leaders not following the rules. so, unfortunately, i don't have this resource which also makes things a lot more complicated… and makes it more complicated for me to present my side in a way that isn't complicated and convoluted!


i'm really taking into consideration what you're saying about how pointing out bad leadership is usually ineffective, but i would think that nationals would want to know that because having good, strong chapters is more important than the discipline of any one member.

like i said, they've been on probation several times before, so obviously nationals themselves had questioned the leadership, and even though most recently they're in good standing… i know for a fact and have proof of (such as social media screenshots, emails, pictures, etc.) the fact that the leaders have continued to put on and endorse sorority-linked alcohol events, even though that was the most recent reason why they were on probation.

i guess this is the most important decision i'm trying to make (and why i'm seeking input): do i focus my presentation on myself and my positive qualities, rather than questioning the credibility and integrity of the processes that got me there, and excluding solid evidence that would probably be of major concern to nationals, because including those things may make it seem like i'm a finger-pointer, always making excuses… or should i use this opportunity (which will likely be the only chance i get) to explain to nationals the truth of what is going on in the chapter… because again, a whole chapter's behavior is more of a concern to the sorority on a national level than one individual's may be.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298193)

thanks for your insight. it is confusing trying to understand the process, because i tend to assume it's like the american legal system when i don't know (since i know a lot more about those laws)

but nevertheless, i feel that it's still appropriate here to consider the most recent incident separately. is it really a pattern of behavior if for years i had good behavior with no infractions? additionally, even though sheer number of infractions matter, is it pertinent that this most recent event was unrelated to the initial infractions?

i won't use my real information/alleged infractions, but a made-up example to demonstrate my point.


if suzy wuzy got put on probation 1 year ago because of infractions related to poor social behavior (i.e. dancing on tables at bars, throwing up because of drinking too much alcohol, explicit PDA, etc.) but then she was on probation for a year and was let off because she was evaluated to have good behavior, then a few months later, disciplinary actions were taken because she was accused of hazing a pledge because she made the pledge drive her to class every day or something)

is it still considered a pattern of concerning behavior, even though she learned from her past mistakes and didn't do those things again?

Originally Posted by AZTheta (Post 2298194)

No. No. No. You don't get to tell your organization what to do.

And you can voluntarily resign at any point in the process.

Look - you can't dictate to anyone. You are on such thin ice that I can hear it cracking.




It does not appear that you are listening. You're still doing a lot of "yes but" and blaming and casting shade on them. Your pattern of behavior is what got you to this point, regardless of anything else.



No she did entirely new things which were still under the umbrella of "conduct unbecoming". I ask you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and read everything you've written. Now, what do YOU think?

ETA: either you're a troll, or you're just unbelievably obtuse and can't accept responsibility for your own actions.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298197)

wow. i gotta say your post hit me like a pound of bricks, definitely hurtful being called obtuse. nevertheless, i am really happy for your posts, as well as others.


i'm not a very skilled communicator. everything i write or say tends to be really wordy and go off on many tangents. i also feel i must have a very different process of mental reasoning and understanding than other people, because i often misunderstand others and others often misunderstand me and my intentions.

you're a very insightful individual… from just reading a few posts of mine, it seems like you were able to understand some of my issues very well. i literally just had a discussion earlier this week with a counselor and the same terminology of my "yes, but.." reasoning and communication was used.

obviously this is indicative of one of probably many flaws i have. i understand why that may make it seem like i am an unsuitable candidate for sorority membership. however, i think that despite my flaws i am able to contribute to the sorority in more ways than i would threaten or be detrimental to it. perhaps my thinking is wrong, because obviously I'm biased since its about me. i don't know. perhaps it is true that i am not worthy of membership in a sorority.

i hope that's not the case, because as i said i do feel really strongly that i deserve to be able to continue to be involved. i know i could do a lot of good things and be very hard working and devoted. i also know there's several sisters who have learned about the situation and definitely feel that i was mistreated and that there are certain huge issues with our chapter.


well, like pretty much everything i say… this post kinda jumped all over the place. but as a concluding point i guess id like to say that i really appreciate the feedback that's been posted so far. i may be flawed, but one positive trait i have that many don't is an extreme desire and drive for self-improvement and trying to learn and change based off of constructive criticism of others.


therefore, if you have any other suggestions or comments you'd like to share, i would appreciate it. i value what you all have to say!

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298188)

i do think it's important to disclose, not just on this post but in my correspondence with the board, that my early disciplinary hearing meetings mostly consisted of the older girls yelling at me, personally insulting me, and using lots of curse words. clearly, the reports that they sent to nationals about these hearings must have included inaccurate information. up until now, i've never had a chance to communicate my side of the story.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298191)

i was recommended for termination by the chapter's disciplinary committee, there was a chapter wide vote on whether i should be terminated or probation (i don't know what the results of the vote were), this information was sent to nationals, who sent a letter to me saying that i'm on probation until a final decision is made.

Originally Posted by als463 (Post 2298233)

I have a question for the OP. Have you aired your grievances on other websites pertaining to Greek Life regarding not feeling supported by your sorority (such as TSM)?

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298239)

no, i've learned from my probation experience the important of keeping things private and not getting people involved that are not meant to know confidential information.

this is the first time i've joined one of these websites, and i'll admit i was hesitant to do so because of possible negative consequences, even though i've been super careful to avoid disclosing any even slightly identifiable detail.

i may later regret it, but at the moment i am very glad that i sought out help on this board. seeing as that we have no alumna advisor and the next higher up supervisor is too far away to meet in person and difficult to get a hold of, i was at a loss as to who i could go to for advice. I felt that my only chance of finding someone who might be able to guide me on framing my opinions with a better approach.

you all have been very helpful! i can't tell you how valuable it is to me to get feedback from you all, i truly appreciate it.

you've opened my eyes to things i wouldn't have seen or wouldn't considered,being that i'm so emotionally invested in this and that can make it hard to evaluate things properly.

it may sound stupid or weird, but i feel like i actually made a notable amount of progress in self-awareness and appropriate social interaction skills just from the time i started this thread until now.

so thank you guys!

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298210)

that is what i plan to request, however, as other posters have said the decision is not up to me.

i plan to explain that my reason for wanting this is that altho i really want to be involved with XYZ sorority, i don't think this particular chapter is a good fit for me to be a part of.

i'm still not sure though, how much or how little about why i don't feel the chapter is a good fit, would be appropriate to include.

since i am at a disadvantage here in supporting my position, i worry they won't understand why i would be a good fit for an alumna chapter but not my chapter, given that they don't know the same discrediting information that i know about my chapter's issues.

I'm telling you, based on experience, the best thing for you to do is resign. At least that way you have a chance of preserving your membership IF YOU CAN SUCCESSFULLY GET REINSTATED.

I don't know all 26 NPC policies on early alumna status. It is not possible for my organization. And once the termination process has started (financial or disciplinary), the only way to avoid it is to voluntarily resign. And no one who has been terminated has ever been reinstated, to the best of my knowledge. Again that is only for my organization. Termination is usually for serious reasons (financial or discipline).

maybe this is an erroneous opinion on my part, but i feel like the only way that i can be successful in maintaining my membership is by proving i am "right" and the board was "wrong"… otherwise i just don't see why they'd see any reason to support me. i don't know how to do this though, as i don't want to come off negatively as a "tattle-tale" or get off topic.

Originally Posted by amIblue? (Post 2298262)

Certainly, there are more instances of chapters without advisors than there should be, but I still don't understand fighting so hard to remain a part of something where you're not wanted.

Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912 (Post 2298289)

She's not fighting to stay a part of the chapter (where she's not wanted); she's fighting to stay a part of of the organization. Perhaps she thinks she will have a better experience as an alumna.

Originally Posted by amIblue? (Post 2298292)

Yes, but in the meantime she has to live with women who don't want her around. It wouldn't be the choice that I would make.

Originally Posted by pinksequins (Post 2298214)

Please pay attention. People have tried to be patient with you and provide advice but you insist on doing it your way by, in your words, "being right". That is an approach that will fail (without very clear facts to the contrary) .

Hitting you with a proverbial ton of bricks has not seemed to register with you. Perhaps your chapter has also gotten fatigued with trying to address things with you? Your constructive options are -- as was pointed out -- contrition or early alumna status.

Originally Posted by als463 (Post 2298240)

Why? Were you initially on probation for posting something on social media that upset people in your chapter?

Originally Posted by sweetheart272 (Post 2298293)

yes, this is definitely my thinking. while i know you all realize inside i have feelings that certain allegations against me were wrong, even if am fully 100% guilty of an offense worthy of punishment on the termination level… that is tough to swallow because termination is a PERMANENT dismissal. even if i was a terrible PR risk for the chapter, beating people up or part time job at a strip club, etc… however bad as you can imagine… that doesn't mean that later in life i won't be more responsible and better suited for membership.

there's lots of little old ladies who really are active for their lifetime. i feel it's very unfair that one incident (whether it is worthy of strict punishment or not) could mean that i couldn't even participate in alumna teas 50 years from now. do you really think i'd still be a crazy PR risk as a 70 year old lady?

i know that's an extreme example, but i'm exaggerating to bring light to the fact that people often change throughout the years. i don't think mistakes you make in college should limit you from doing things later in life as an adult.

i very much want to become an alumna member. i know a lot of people might think of this as ridiculous, but it sounds very appealing to me. i live in an area with several active alumna chapters. furthermore, even though the collegiate experience in a sorority is different (at least in mine i've found it revolves around partying and alcohol) and there are things like that that won't be replicated in an alumna chapter, but the parts about my sorority that i care about the most are the fundraising endeavors for our philanthropy, camaraderie working together on various projects, and helping others (such as younger collegiate members one day) are the focus of those alumna groups, and i would think that the sorority would want to take advantages of someone who wants very much to help out, volunteer, and pay dues

Originally Posted by amIblue? (Post 2298226)

The whole thing sounds fishy to me, but I believe that the early alumna ship has not only sailed, but it was never in port to begin with.

What I don't understand is why the OP would be fighting so hard to remain a part of a group that has so clearly indicated that she is not wanted. Whether it be for legitimate reasons or not, I don't get it. Do you know how powerful it is for a chapter to have to vote to terminate a member? I've been involved with my sorority for over twenty years, and I've seen it exactly once.

Originally Posted by anonadvisor (Post 2298249)

Hate to do this, but I have to go anonymous for this one. I am a current regular of GC, but I don't want to throw my chapter under the bus.

As a current advisor of a chapter, I have seen my share of girl drama. I have seen the chapter not follow proper disciplinary procedure. I have found out after the fact that a member was put on probation for the same offense that other members committed without being put on probation. The one who was put on probation had a history with one of the exec members, and that history swayed opinions.

I have seen a member almost be recommended for termination for offenses that are nowhere near termination level offenses. Had the chapter not had an advisor, they would have recommended her for termination, because it was hard for them to step back and see the big picture. Also, in that case, there were some very strong personalities who voiced in favor of termination, and everyone else was basically going along with it because they didn't want to fight over it. The others didn't really agree, but didn't want to argue.

There are a lot of chapters out there without advisory support. It's hard for some of us to remember that at times. In those chapters without advisory support, I firmly believe that the "girl drama" issues get disproportionate attention in the disciplinary process.

There is a reason our organizations require final oversight from a national council. I believe those women take termination very seriously, and I believe they will read a letter that is sincere.

That being said, OP, I wholly agree with the other advice you have been given about not laying blame on anyone but yourself. Own up to whatever it is that you have done. Acknowledge the changes you have made. Throwing shade on the chapter makes you look like the source of the drama. Ain't nobody got time for that. :)