Everyone's a little bit racist...
 

I'm interested in people's opinion on the level of racism shown by the following situations...

1) "I feel that skin tone must be taken into account in determining how clothes look. For example: Light Blues look best on Fair skinned Caucasians, Purplish Grays look best on African Americans and Emeralds look best on East Asians".
1a)"... And I take that into account when hiring Models for my company's fashion shoots"

...Completely different scenario.
2) Two cashiers at the local US Grocery Store are talking to each other in Spanish, and you are in one of their lines. After your groceries are finished, you say "Gracias" instead of "Thank You".

No, everyone is not "a little bit racist". There is no such thing as "a little bit racist".

Everyone has prejudices, biases, and varying levels of ignorance.

Racism is about power at the individual and, most often, structural levels. Racism is the ability to negatively impact, discriminate, impose, and/or force.

Racism often includes but does not require prejudice. Prejudice often results in but does not inevitably lead to racism.

I figured he was quoting this.

LOL. Yes, thanks. Unfortunately that song is often quoted and based on a common misconception.

There are people who believe there are levels of racism and there are people who use racism interchangeable with prejudice.

Interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/science/b...acism-study-uk

Intent vs. impact...does this mean that people of color are adequately represented? If so, it's not particularly racist that the black people are wearing one color and the white people another. If it's instead used to justify hiring fewer people of color, then it's racist.

Color, and the way light reflects off it is a real thing. One good example is on TV. On shows that are hosted by a white person, the fill lights are amber. When it's hosted by a black person, it's lavender. That's not racist; it's science. Otherwise the host would look either too dark or washed out.

Now, whether we actually look better in certain colors based on our skin tones or if we just like ourselves in certain colors, I'm not so sure. But it brings to mind a job I had a long time ago hiring voice over talent. I always preferred the male voice, which also goes back to science. The human ear hears lower pitches easier than higher pitches. Now does that mean you should only ever use men for voice overs? No, but I always thought they sounded better. And the same thing would probably be true for an art director choosing models. First, he could prefer a certain look and secondly, he could be drawn to certain color people with certain color clothing. Now if the art director never seemed to have looks that would look better (in his opinion) on people of color, then there might be an issue, but on the issue of skin tone vs clothing color, I don't think you can claim racism.

I think if 2 people are speaking in Spanish and you comment in Spanish that is COURTESY. If you see a brown person and you say gracias with no other reason to think that person speaks Spanish, then it might be racist.

LOL. So between the exchange between the 2 cashiers and you finishing, there is no other interaction? Are you and the cashier standing in silence? I always get at least a "Hi. How are you? Did you find everything OK?" or SOMETHING. I don't think I've ever been in a service situation where the employee wasn't at least familiar with the common language of the area. If the person can say "Hi, how are you" I'm sure they'll understand "thank you"

I feel like this would be like someone seeing me in line and saying "Yo yo yo, you be findin errythang alright homie" or something thinking I'd feel more at home with that. No need for all the extra. A simple "Hi there" is more than enough.

(this was not a slam at you DubaiSis :p)

I actually had something similar happen to me many years ago. I used to work group sales in a hotel. I was giving a tour of the hotel to a prospective group that was of Hispanic origin. Can't remember the name of the group now 10 years later...? Anyway, we were touring (in English) and one person broke off to use the restroom. She came out, and one of her colleagues asked her (in Spanish) in front of me if the bathrooms were clean. She replies (in Spanish) yes. Me (my blonde hair, blue eyed self) turns around and says "Glad to hear our bathrooms are clean!" And they all giggled. Point being, they totally thought they were having a sidebar conversation that I couldn't possibly understand!

Was it racist of me to respond? Serious question. God, I hope not! I was just responding to a conversation that was being had in my midst in a language I understood and speak.

Discuss. I'm now curious...

I personally don't think either of those situations (grocery store or tour) are racist.

I generally feel the need to give a side-eye for situations like this (which has happened to me on more than one occasion): I am sitting in a public place and notice someone going around trying to solicit. The white folks get a "Hey there. Just wanted to stop by to see if I could interest you in xyz product" while speaking to me warrants a "What up, bro. Check this out...word, word."

Why couldn't I get the "regular" spiel? Why would you assume that I prefer "street talk"? That's why I was asking (in my original reply) if there was any other interaction -- unless the cashier has ZERO grasp of the English language (which I've never seen in my neck of the woods), they know what "thank you" is. No need for all the extra.

I don't think it's racist but it is certainly a microaggression.

1. It's not levels. It's just racist. It gives people excuses to exclude people from opportunities. And incorrect as well. The assumption that all of any one racial group even has the same skintone is just not well informed.

2. It's about intent. If someone is saying "Gracias" because they are just being an a-hole, thats a problem.
Sometimes, it is being polite. Sometimes, it is just speaking Spanish to someone who speaks Spanish.
My best friend lives/teaches in heavy Spanish-speaking areas, and has a lot of Latino students. She tries to implement things out of respect of the ethnicities/cultures in the classroom and neighborhood. THEN...she had my handsome Godson who is Black and Puerto Rican (and has family who speak limited English). She frequently uses Spanish (and has been diligently trying to learn) so that he will know both languages.
If people are walking up to every "Latino looking" person speaking Spanish then that's a problem. (This happens to me more times than I can count. People assume I'm every race/ethnic group mixed together, and I'm looking at them like...I'm Black...and I only speak English and a little American Sign Language.)

This.

Interesting example. And now that you mention it, I've probably observed it. Was the solicitor white? (Ugh, if so.) Microagression is a good word. I'm going to start using that.

To the part I put in bold: If I'm honest with myself, I probably jumped in to reply to my folks speaking Spanish just to be a little a-holey. I was mildly annoyed that they were trying to have a conversation in front of me, but excluding me, and yet the cleanliness of our bathroom was important to the tour and conversation we were having. (i.e.: they wouldn't pick my location if we had nasty bathrooms). Does that make sense?

Assuming that someone not your same skin color can't possibly understand you speaking your native tongue might be racist. Acknowledging that you're not stupid is not.

And I'm not a chatter in those kinds of situations, but I do try to say thank you. It's part of my Club Med training - we were always to try to say hello, good morning, good evening, good bye, that kind of stuff in the people's native tongue. At one point I could say hello in maybe 15 languages. And jump, but that's another story. Besides, jump in more languages than logic would dictate is Hopa!

Changing subject a bit, after all the "I am not a costume" discussions I have become more sensitive to that. And then I was invited to a 30th birthday party where she wants everyone in Mariachi outfits. She's Mexican-American from El Paso. And she clearly sees it as a dress up/costume kind of a gig. Is this one of those "only if it's your own people" things? And by the way, hell to the no am I dressing up as a mariachi. MAYBE I'll wear the hat. And maybe a hot dress to make up for the fact that I am wearing no brocade anywhere.

This makes me feel better. Thanks! I was having an identity crisis 10 years after the fact because of the OP! :D

This cracks me up...I'm not sure what I would do!!

First off, LMAO at #1 because many moons ago, my mom and I were watching the tonight show and Johnny Gill (I think, if not him someone New Jack Swing-y) and apropos of nothing she says "don't black men look good in purple!" So apparently there is a precedent. Yes, that is potentially racist, but also just plain stupid as not all people of a certain race are the same shade and/or have the same undertones.

#2, if two cashiers are conversing with each other when they're supposed to be waiting on me and haven't addressed me directly, I wouldn't say thank you or gracias. I'd say very sarcastically "sorry to interrupt your social hour."

Isn't the clothing color and skin color more of an undertone of skin kind of thing, as in cool coloring vs. warm coloring. I've known fair people with blue undertones in their skin and people who are as equally fair but with yellow undertones to their skin. (My best friend and I come to mind. Both pale as the dead, but I'm cool and she's warm. We do not look good in the same colors.) I think the cool/warm thing goes tracks along skin colors from fair to dark. While I don't think there's anything wrong with someone asserting that a color isn't good for an individual, people who claim that only people of a certain race can carry off X color are just dumb asses.

LOL! I have to laugh about some of the side conversations Latinos have had in my presence assuming that I didn't understand what they were saying. I speak Spanish fluently, and back in my salad days when I was young and frisky, I would often overhear comments Spanish-speaking young men were making about me when out and about. I lived in a neighborhood with a largish Spanish-speaking population. Anyway, I would chose my moment, turn toward them, and fire back at them in Spanish. The looks on their faces were priceless! We all would then burst out laughing. No harm, no foul!

When we go to our Mexican restaurant here, I always speak to them in Spanish, which is very well received. The manager always comes out from the back where he works to greet us, always with a warm smile and hearty welcome.

I just love Latinos -the generic term- and IMO that I like and respect them comes across to them. I am about as WASP as you can get. But those would-be barriers have never interfered with having a good relationship with them.

I do the same thing at work. I'm an apartment manager, and I get a guilty thrill out of not mentioning I speak spanish to people conversing amongst themselves until they're about to leave, when I respond to something they're discussing.

Side note, my husband does not speak spanish and I find that I'm kind of judgmental when he says gracias or the like in the scenario of #2 from the OP's post.

^^ this, right here.

White people love to make me "sistah gurrrrl".

I love interacting with Afro-Latinas(os). Sometimes they are speaking Spanish (or other) dialects and then they see me, a fellow person of the immediate African diaspora, and the Spanish (or other) dialects often switch to familiar Black dialects (which are formally recognized by many linguists and aren't the same as "sistah gurrrrrrl" mockery). That is the awesomeness of varying conscious (double consciousness, triple consciousness, etc).

I'm always fascinated to see my black friends surrounded by their black friends. Who knew they were bilingual! I have never been one to put on the "sistah gurrrrrl" thing because I can only assume I would look like a poseur or worse, just stupid.

On a similar note, did anyone see Blackish last night? I think it will probably be funny but, like so many sitcoms, the first couple episodes are just background so it was only minimally funny. But I'm glad to see Lawrence Fishburne back in the game!

Here's another "racist/prejudice or not scenario".

All day meetings are being planned at work. The admin in charge of ordering food responds to an email to call out if certain attendees need vegetarian meals. All the names are Indian.


Cut to a few weeks later, different all day meetings with different admins coordinating. (Also, this set is East coast as opposed to the first set is West coast.) We break for lunch. It's all meat filled sandwiches. Zero veggie options. About 10% of the attendees are vegetarian and most of them are Indian. The next two days have vegetarian options after it was brought to the organizer's attention.

It should be noted I work for a company in the healthcare industry. Healthy meals are actually required by the company, but "healthy" and vegetarian aren't always hand in hand.

My initial reaction to both of these situations is this:

1. If this is honestly the way they are choosing models, I don't see how that is racist. I could see this same thing happening for large models (vertical vs. horizontal stripes), makeup for particular eye colors to make them pop, etc. This is not an issue exclusive to race.

2. I don't think this is racist as you HEARD them speaking in Spanish. Had they not heard them speaking in Spanish and were basing on appearances, that is a different question.

Overall, I think racism is the action form of racial prejudices. You can have no malicious intent and still have automatic negative race related thoughts. My $0.02.

Personally, I think our society is out of control with expecting "free" lunches/snacks/etc to meet each person's individual dietary needs. If you can't have meat/dairy/gluten/fiber or whatever and you aren't aware in advance of the menu, it is up to you to inquire in advance or bring food you can eat. It is next to impossible to find anything to serve a group of people that will work for everybody present. As a person with extreme dietary restrictions, I bring my own backup food if I'm not sure what is being served. I would never consider making a big deal of the fact that the entree is a luncheon salad and I can't eat vegetables.

My mom was a vegetarian before it was cool and she always had a sandwich in her purse "just in case". The world does not have to cater to everybody.

That said- I think the first situation sounds like prejudice if you're saying the admin only asked those with Indian names whether they needed vegetarian food. Statistically, the Indians were more likely to be vegetarians, but I definitely know plenty of Caucasians who are vegetarian.

The second situation simply sounds like they feel like I do! If you have a special need, bring it to someone's attention. Don't assume people can read your mind.

Oh...this is an "is this racist" thread. Okay...

My coworkers and I thought in the first scenario the admin was at best just trying to be courteous and at worst prejudice. Would have been best if she'd ask everyone if there were any dietary restrictions.

In the second scenario, nobody made a huge deal of it. The coordinators were informed so arrangements could be made for the rest of the meetings. I just pulled the meat off while others ran out to the onsite cafeteria. We don't have a cafeteria in my office so that option hadn't occurred to me. I'm so used to big meetings (30+) always having vegetarian options that I was floored by the lack of options really. I learned quickly to save fruit and other options from breakfast because the lunch offerings were ultimately fairly gross.


eta: I recall, at a previous job, one of my supervisors loved to reward the team with lunches. He would order ribs, peperoni pizza, cheesesteak sandwiches, etc. Always so much meat. Never mind that half the team were known vegetarians. I was constantly reminding him to pick out alternative options.

Racist or nah? :p

I've met so many people who are annoying (and demanding) about their dietary restrictions that I've lost count.

Last Memorial Day weekend, my boyfriend and I were visiting one of his friends in Dallas. Another one of his friends and his girlfriend (we'll call them Matt and Sarah) were planning to stop by for a cookout. And what do people generally do at Memorial Day cookouts? They eat meat and drink alcohol. What doesn't Sarah do? Eat meat and drink alcohol. Ok, no big deal.

My boyfriend was on the phone with Matt prior to them coming over, and he said, "By the way, we know Sarah doesn't eat meet, and we have a couple veggie burgers in the fridge here, so if she wants those, she can have them." Matt and Sarah arrive… with nothing but a 6-pack of beer in hand. Sarah immediately starts complaining because the only thing that we have to drink is beer and whatever can be found in the fridge (maybe some orange juice?). She finally pours herself a glass of water. Then she asks if she can see the veggie burgers she'll be eating. As she's reading the back of the box, she starts rambling on and on about how she can only eat specific types of veggie burgers that don't contain a certain ingredient.

Seriously??? Why didn't you just bring what you wanted to eat?! It's not like you thought you were showing up to a salad and soda party, and you were surprised when there were only burgers and booze! You knew where you were going and what to expect. The hosts of the party were nice enough to offer you their veggie burgers, which they were probably planning to eat for dinner one night that week, and then you complain and say that you can't eat just ANY type of veggie burger? Ugh.

I assumed yes and no. I do not always get "Hi" from a cashier. I have it happen sometimes that the cashier is talking in a foreign language to someone else in the store while ringing me up, doesn't say a word to me. If that's the situation and you know that it's Spanish then I don't see a "Gracias" as more than saying thank you.

If a cashier clearly speaks English or you try to guess the language, I have issues.

If I had Indians at lunch, I wouldn't have the faintest clue what they eat or don't eat. It's not my job to know the food preferences of every ethnic group and religion on the planet. I simply don't give a rat's ass. I would most likely have a meatless option just because there are MANY reasons people don't eat meat. Someone I worked with thought I was a vegetarian. No, not in the least, I just 1) don't want to order a steak at lunch and 2) don't want to choke down the dried out tasteless chicken breast that's in oh so very many of the lunch options at the places we ate most often. I'd rather eat no meat than bleah meat.

To ask only a certain ethnic group what they want is not only racist, it's ignorant to the rest of the attendees who don't get a choice. This is pretty much the definition of the "what happens when we assume" phrase.

But if you're ordering lunch for a large group of people, asking for any dietary restrictions isn't too far out of line. If you're ordering sandwiches for 30 and someone asks for a salad instead, that's pretty easy to work around. Or to have some meat-free. To expect a custom order (no mayonnaise, extra mustard and really I never eat white bread) is just being annoying. But as the picky person, sometimes you just have to be prepared to go without. None of the employees in question are going to wither away if they had to skip one meal.

It's also pretty ignorant to lump all Indians into one group. Hindus have very different dietary rules than Muslims, which are different from Sikhs, which are different from Jains, etc. India is very different from region to region.

I think 33girl was simply responding based on what SoCalGirl said:

And quite frankly, I don't know all of the dietary restrictions of every group/region in India. Heck, I didn't even know there were specific differences based on such things. It's not anyone's job to know. I don't think that's ignorance. Ignorant would be assuming that every Indian person eats in exactly the same way. Or that every American living in Arkansas eats the same way. Or that every Christian eats the same way.

The point is, everyone has preferences, and some people are pickier than others and/or they have things that they simply can't eat. And if you know you have dietary restrictions, you either a) let someone know ahead of time, or b) suck it up and bring your own food. But the last thing you do is complain when someone provides you with food that you don't like (unless you made specific requests ahead of time).

I agree with the above, but a couple of points. First, I believe that you can separate religious dietary needs from personal dietary needs and secondly most places that do catering, will have a vegetarian option.

Oddly enough, the only religion that I know of (and I've had coworkers from a wide variety of South Asian founded religions) that has restrictions on what plants can be eaten is Judaism. This falls into two areas, first the restrictions on grains during passover (so even the vegetarian wraps don't work there) and second, "Orlah" which is the prohibition on eating tree fruit from the first three years of production. (Leviticus 19:23) (And Orlah doesn't really apply outside the Land of Israel)

I don't see why personal dietary needs would be less important than religious dietary needs. Many personal dietary needs are medically based- allergies, Crohn's Disease, lactose intolerance, Celiac's Disease.

I wasn't directing that at 33girl. I was agreeing with her point that making assumptions is dumb.

That's another reason you need to just have a sandwich bar with things that people can mix and match and if someone wants to eat nothing but green peppers, no harm no foul.

Ha!

And you'd piss off an entirety of West Indian/Caribbean people - having worked with many Carribean students, co-workers and acquaintances, cold meals are not acceptable. Most say it upsets their stomach. I thought it was just a few people being picky, but I realize almost EVERY WI I've met in a social setting with food rarely touch cold food (salads, sandwiches) or cold finger foods (raw veggies with dip, for example). I organized a 3-day conference and had about 30 students (out of say, 100ish) who would refuse to eat the sandwiches and potato salad offered. The next day we offered a hot pasta dish in addition to the sandwiches. Some were OK with that but others either brought their own food from home or went out to buy food.

Many of my former WI coworkers brought their lunches from home for lunch meetings unless they were sure the food was hot, and also send their children to school with hot lunches, making sure there are accommodations for their foods to be heated.