Overheard at Starbucks today....
 

While I was in line, there was a lady behind me who just answered her phone.

"I didn't get any sleep last night. She only got an invite back to one house that she liked. She was cut by both DG and Chi O".

pause

"She only has one left that she likes"

pause

"I don't think recs make any difference any more"

and then the Barrista called me up

I'm pretty sure which university this is since there is Pref today at one of the larger universities that students commonly attend, and both of those chapters are on that campus. I so much wanted to talk to the mom since I think there is still a misconception that RIFs get you invited back to houses but had to be somewhere quickly.

Just a thought, wouldn't it be nice if each chapter placed a disclaimer on their RIFs that stated that completing this form does not guarantee an invitation to join the chapter or to attend any parties beyond the first? Maybe I'm still living in la la land!:rolleyes:

It doesn't even guarantee you an invite to first invitationals at some schools.

What gets me about what the person said: "only has one left that she likes". Damned lucky she has that, IMO. The perception that the PNM will pick and choose from the ones she likes and be in charge just absolutely slays me. Do simple math, people. The competition is insane.

(kind of stabby, still, obviously.)

I'd have to double check, but I think we have a disclaimer along those lines either on our form or the part of the website where the link is located.

Disclaimer is irrelevant if the PNM and her mother never see the actual recommendation that is sent. When I am asked to do one, it is online and is never seen by the PNM.

DaffyKD

There should be a disclaimer (yelled from the rooftops, if necessary) to all PNMs that nothing guarantees you a bid; not recs, grades, looks, personality, etc. Some special snowflakes have it all, and they're still left without a bid (or without an invitation to the "best" chapters).

I just don't know why people still think that in a system that spends so much time, money, and effort to put on recruitment, where PNMs dress to impress and have to polish their conversation skills, that a recommendation is a guaranteed "in". In what world are they living? I don't bring 3 good references into a job interview and think, "looks like I've got this one in the bag."

It's frustrating.

It's stuff like this that makes me think that maybe we should get rid of recs and legacies, period.

I understand that the original concept was to introduce women you knew to the sorority you loved because both would benefit - the sorority would get a girl you knew was awesome and the girl would get the sisterhood that contributed so much to your life. But somewhere along the way, it seems like the whole thing got corrupted.

Maybe this is another "I'm not a mom" thing, but I can't imagine being mad at my chapter because 20 years after I was in it, they didn't like a girl I was related to or that I liked. Heck, when I was IN school there were girls I was friends with and loved dearly that my sisters couldn't stand. That doesn't mean I threw a tantrum and acted like she "deserved" membership just because she knew me.

If you can't find friends on your own merits, are they really your friends at all?

I completely agree, at least on the legacy part. I can kind of see both sides of the rec argument (but only in ridiculously huge recruitments do I think they should be utilized).

As for legacies, there are simply too many now. Heck, there are just too many PNMs in general. Too many PNMs + RFM = chapters wondering how they're going to cut so many PNMs = cutting PNMs who are legacies to other chapters. We've seen it happen. In some cases, it's detrimental to an open-minded legacy who wants to explore all of her options.

And of course, there are now so many legacies that in some cases, even if a chapter's entire pledge class was made of legacies, they still wouldn't fit them all in. And maybe that chapter gave a bid to the open-minded PNM who ultimately felt at home at a different chapter, and the PNM who desperately wanted in (and whose mom is going to be pissed) didn't get a bid.

And while I don't want to start a North vs South war, I think the idea of doing away with legacy status would be met with much more resistance in the south than it would in the north.

That would be true.

I've thought this before, but I suspect the rec/legacy tradition has such a tight grip that even talking about putting an end to it would cause an uproar.
Interesting - I've thought exactly the opposite. Since it seems that the purpose recs serve at ridiculously huge recruitments is often to separate those who know which hoops to jump through from those who don't, I'm not sure that's a good reason to continue using them. But at smaller schools, where recs are used as actual introductions/character-vouchers, I can see a real benefit to them.

Either way, I doubt it'll make a difference. I don't see the rec or legacy practice changing any time soon.

I wonder if this is the school I think it is based on where you are and the status of DG/Chi O. If so, recs aren't even common there.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner.

Actually, it is a matter of NATIONAL policies that some GLOs require a rec to pledge their organizations. Recs are absolutely necessary regardless of the school.

Which is why she said...

… instead of saying that they're not needed at all ;)

Regardless, the point is that recs aren't the be-all and end-all of a successful recruitment.

Do PNMS have the option of not notifying their legacy chapter and going through recruitment as a non-legacy?

Yes, they do. Whether or not all of the alumnae that they contact for recs will play along is another story.

And haven't some NPCers said before that on some campuses, chapters basically take care of getting recs for all New Members, often with the New Members knowing nothing about it?

Yes, that happens.

MysticCat, I related that I had personal experience with that when I went through recruitment (rush) back in mumble mumble and I am aware of it continuing to happen on occasion. If a chapter seriously wants a PNM who does not have a rec, they know how to get one.

All of them? Hm.. I don't know that I've heard that. But for some PNMs? Yes. But there are definitely some campuses where they're rare (or not seen at all).

Well, for every rushee they WANT.

No chapter, even the most SEC among them, would turn a girl away they really want for lack of a rec. It's the "do we or don't we" girl who's at issue. For those sororities that require recs, THOSE girls might be outta luck.

Without giving specifics, let me assure you that groups that require a rec, in other words have to send the form or the name of the person signing it to HQ, there are ways to make that happen - even for a whole pledge class. I'm sure that they would be chastised for it but it can be made to happen.

But for a rush that takes place before the women are even official class-taking freshmen and know no one, how can they know they "really want" a girl before that first cut?

The same way a house can have a "dance party" instead of rushing the girls - they do their homework prior to rush. If I were a rushee today I certainly wouldn't want to rely on being THAT level of adored. But it can still happen. Miss Teen USA is rushing at Texas but didn't bother getting recs? I'm guessing the chapters can find an alum to write her a rec.

And this is a time when people ask, "What's the point of recs?"

Doesn't that logic call in to question the other point I see here often, namely that if you can't find friends in a chapter of 300 or more, maybe sorority life isn't for you?

That is the question of the day.

I've thought about this issue quite a bit over the years, because there is such a disparity between campus norms in the area of recs. It seems to me we have these scenarios:

1. Competitive campuses where PNMs need recs because they are the campus norm, regardless of each group's inter/national policy, and to not have them would be detrimental to continuing. They are a PNM's "stamp of approval" (exceptions made for Miss Teen USA, Olympic figure skaters, and other extremely rare snowflakes, in which case groups who require a rec per inter/national policy will find a willing aluma to write one, and other groups may well invite her back without one, and they won't need to have anyone ever fill one out behind the scenes).

2. Competitive campuses where some/many savvy PNMs may have recs, but it generally isn't a kiss of death is they don't; they are more useful as a "heads up" to the groups, and may give a PNM an advantage. Again, those groups who require one will get one, at some stage, via some means unknown to non-members.

3. Campuses where recs are rarely seen, PNMs are allowed to sign up for recruitment until almost the last minute, campuses where there there are high numbers of international students who likely have no sorority connections (I'm thinking about the MIT recruitment story I wrote this fall), etc. Recs are not the campus norm, but it sounds like groups who require them would still find an alumna to complete a rec??

I think an underlying question is: In the case of required recs at the inter/national level, is the rec's purpose primarily for membership selection, or is it more of an endorsement for membership by an alum (perhaps after the collegians have determined the PNM is someone they want). It's up to each sorority to privately discuss and determine how recs are used. I'd argue that there doesn't seem to be much validity in a rec done behind the scenes by an alumna who doesn't know the PNM.

Women who are most familiar with Scenario 1 recruitments seem to have a hard time believing that Scenarios 2 and 3 exist, and that no one is secretly securing recs behind the scenes for all of these rec-less women. After reading these posts over the years, I think I have determined a couple of NPC groups that do require a rec form for every PNM before she is extended a bid, but I think there are many more groups who don't, and lots of PNMs in Scenario 2 and 3 don't have them...ever.

My daughter is not a special snowflake, not famous, not a pageant queen or whatever makes pnm's think they'll waltz in and get their 'dream' house.

She went oos to an SEC school. The places where she had the strongest reqs and letters of recommendation cut her the first night, and she ended up getting a bid to the sorority where her rec writers must not have understood how to get it to the right places first. They told her bid day they had to go get her recs for her.

If anyone heard her story they'd assume it would have made no difference whether she had recs or not. I'm certainly of that opinion now.

Why do businesses require references for prospective employees?

We no longer do. Nobody will submit a name of a person who will give them a bad job reference. I regularly call "off the record" contacts who might know the applicant to get a true reference.

Exactly.

Business references can make sense. Written recommendations can make sense. But those come from previous employers, teachers, coaches, pastors, etc. When applying to schools or applying for jobs, the references/recommendations don't have to come from a person from the particular school or company to which the applicant is applying. They come from people who actually KNOW the applicant.

I can understand having recs, but why have a sorority alumna who met the PNM for 30 minutes, or who has never met the PNM at all, write a rec? Why not have it be someone who has spent countless hours with the PNM and can actually vouch for them?

ETA: I would LOVE for someone to do a long-term, extensive study about the correlation between PNMs who receive recs, and the extent to which they contribute to the sorority (do they stay or drop, do they run for or hold positions, GPA, risk management issues, involvement as an alumna, etc.) vs. those PNMs who don't receive recs.

Well, those are kind of nonsensical too.

Having a rec =/= any guarantee of an invitation to any successive rounds for NPC group, as far as I'm aware (assuming non-legacy), but it can't hurt, either.

My daughter did have a personal rec to the group she joined, at a school that's on the "up for debate" list in the "where you absolutely need recs" thread. She also had recs to 3 groups who cut her after the first round. In fact, two of the groups cut everyone on her hall, and the third invited 2 hallmates to second round, then cut them, too. So, I'd agree there's no guarantee, but I think they did help her get invited back to some of the other groups (one of which is a group that I think requires recs at the national level).

Not really. The list can be informational by its omissions.

But unless you know the business owner/manager personally, you need a reference for the person giving the reference. One of my friends recntly had her job put into jeopardy because her supervisor wanted her to do some shady things and she refused. I'm sure he wouldn't give her a good reference, but this is the definition of "consider the source."

And you know what? That applies to sorority recs too. I'm sure a rec from ABC at Teeny Northern U doesn't impress ABC at SEC U. And honestly, why should it?

As I said, somewhere along the way this system got corrupted from "here's a letter of introduction" to " this form is supposed to be a golden ticket and if it's not, I'll shout far and wide how awful this chapter/group is."

Drawing on the parallel to job references, a job reference often cannot tell whether a job applicant is the right fit for the job. Mary may have been well-liked and capable at her prior job, but she might not fit well with the dynamic and needs of the new employer (despite a good reference). The new employer might be overly staffed with feel good, busy doers (rather than strategic thinkers or leaders). Similarly, many recs can only go so far, which is where chapters meeting the PNMs and ascertaining fit comes in. A rec from Nancy Northeast who graduated in the 80s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit in a Texas university in 2015 any more than a reference will know if Mary belongs at the new company.

THIS EXACTLY TIMES ELEVENTY TWELVE.

You're hired!

Right. And even a UT alumna who graduated in the 1980s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit at UT in 2015.

As 33girl said, the meaning and purpose of recs seems to have been lost along the way. For the NPCs that require them, it'd be interesting to know what the reasoning is. Is it really making that much of a difference in their new member classes? Do they have a higher retention rate? Are their chapter members more involved? Is there anything to suggest that requiring them from every PNM at every school is beneficial? Just curious.