Transgender women in sorority life?
 

So I'm going to preface this by saying I'm not going not say what the chapter, sorority, or college this happened at for the privacy of all involved. Essentially what happen is we had this transgender girl rush for our sorority through informal recruitment. She looks great, is very sociable, and seemed to fit in with the girls great. Honestly I would have said if we didn't know she was trans I would have considered her a steal. Like I don't think it is a stretch to say she would have easily been a "top tier" girl if no one knew she was trans.

However, despite the fact she looked so good we knew she was trans when she started rushing for us through guys in our partner frat who had known her when she was a guy. So long story short about 90% of the sorority wanted to let her in because she was such an amazing steal by getting her during informal recruitment. But 10% of the girls however were really against it, they were viciously prejudice against her. I frankly felt the way the acted was unwarranted but maybe thats just me.

So basically what then happen was that they decided they were going to break the rules and not have a vote on this girl because they knew she'd get in if they let a vote go through. They did this and the girl never got in. Honestly I think its kind of BS because she was such a great fit and would have really helped out house in recruitment next year but yeah. So I'm on here to ask what you all think and what you would have done?

Just out of curiosity, how old was she?

She was 18

And she's fully transitioned?

Idk, I don't really think thats our business. Even if it was, no one in the sorority even bothered to ask the question. A lot of people I think just assumed she hadn't and no one really even now knows

This is going to turn into an interesting discussion of the legal implications of social Greek organizations being single-gender groups under Title IX, I'm sure. I have no personal experience in this area but I think I can point out some of the facets of this issue. Whether your group, which presumably has protected single-gender status under Title IX, was actually able to take a person who might be biologically male but identify outwardly as female is one. Whether having a biologically male person join that group would endanger their single-gender status is another. What the transgender person's legal gender designation was and whether your sisters felt comfortable potentially having a person in their house (if there is one) who is still biologically male can also come into play.

It does sound like the 10% of girls you describe as being prejudiced against her at the very least bent your sorority's procedures regarding voting by not holding a vote when one should have been held. I feel like your advisors, if they were not already involved in this process, should be told what happened so they can investigate whether this girl can join your sorority.

What I would have done? If this PNM would be able to join our sorority without endangering us under Title IX, and I truly believed that she would be a good sister and fit in with my chapter, I would have wanted her to join us. I'm just not sure if she would be able to, and someone with more legal experience will be able to comment on that.

My big problem with this is at huge greek schools like U of I, Alabama, Flordia, etc... Schools that greek life is so big that you can't be socially involved on campus without being in a fraternity or sorority. Essentially what we are doing by telling trans people they are not allowed in is telling them they are not allowed to be actively involved on the campus.

I think it depends on a few factors. If this is an NPC sorority, the rules say WOMEN. I would hate to get into the argument about what constitutes being a WOMAN in the eyes of that sorority, but my guess is a trans person would not meet the standards as currently written or accepted. My guess is the same rules would apply to NPHC and most of the multi-cultural sororities, although I can't speak for them.

And because of status situations with sororities on campus at public schools they can't bend the rules because of 1 awesome trans person. It could open up a tax law (and Title IX and probably a bunch of other rules the sororities function under) can of worms you'd never get closed again.

While this gal may be great, I would let this one go.

ETA/if surgery is completed, then that is a different thing. No longer trans=woman=eligible for NPC sorority membership. I have a friend who has been trans for 25 years but can't have the final surgery because of her job (she's a kind of famous drag queen). There are sacrifices she makes in order to keep her very lucrative job.

As an alum of 3 of those big schools, let me say that you can definitely be highly involved without being Greek. Where did you get that idea?

I mean don't you think this needs to get resolved eventually tho? Cause its not like these people are going away. Lets also not forget the fact we probably have a bunch of trans women in our sororities already. The only difference is we don't know they are trans but they still probably walk amongst us. And are just so afraid to tell us that we may never know they are trans

@carnation, things I've heard from friends on campuses like those

With the recommendation system in place, especially in the South, I expect we will know if someone is trans.

Well Greek Life doesn't just exist in the south and I'm sure someone could get recommendations that don't out a trans person

The campus I'm on doesn't require a recommendation btw

The campus has nothing to do with it. Several individual sororities do and that is supposed to apply to all their chapters.

I'm an Indiana alum, and I can tell you that you don't have to be Greek to be actively involved on campus there. That's one of the good things about a big school like that - there are so many options for involvement. At IU, there are over 750 registered student groups (this per the IU website) - and most of them do not require you to be Greek to get involved.

My sister went to Illinois, had absolutely no interest in going Greek, and still found plenty of things to do on campus.

Fully transitioned at 18 years old? I call BS on this "question". We certainly do not have a "whole bunch" of trans women in sororities that have no knowledge of their situation. People don't live in a vacuum, dear. Just isn't happening.

I really think that you are doing nothing but trying to stir trouble with a completely fictitious story. Maybe save it for bed time. :rolleyes:

@theatalady, I think your comment completely encapsulates the situation. All you people who are alumni and in nationals made these policies to keep trans women out of sororities on purpose. You are well aware that it is a very rare person who could have any chance of meeting all your set requirements. Maybe a dozen trans women on earth were born in a state where there birth certificates could get changed, is from a family that has 20,000 dollars to burn on surgery, and has a family accepting enough to transition under the age of 18.

Yes this did happen! You know why I care? Because I have a transgender sister who is 14 years old and to know she will not have the same opportunities in life I have had breaks my heart. That the insane requirements you people make will mean she can never join sorority life, she can never go to a woman's college, she may be raped out of spite because of attitudes like yours. I never said this girl was fully transitioned, I said no one really knows.

@thetalady, Oh and by the way, I am absolutely sure there are trans women (a few, definitely not a lot) in sorority life. It is almost a statistical impossibility that it hasn't happened at least once or twice.

1. To your first point, it is a rare individual who has transitioned fully at 18. Most trans people I know waited until college or moving out of their family homes before they felt comfortable enough to begin the process of transitioning. Everything that goes along with transitioning would make the importance of sorority membership pale in comparison. I would say this about anyone pursuing any major life change. Parenthood. Marriage. Insert big life event or change here.

2. You should have just come out with this story instead of fabricating a story about the trans woman that caused a mean minority of your sorority to violate your rules for voting on members. Unless this is a fabrication as well, and then you might as well be honest.

I'm kind of disappointed that the response that has come from everyone is essentially to call me a liar. If that is the reality you choose to accept then there is nothing I can do to convince you all. I never said its a common thing to transition at this point and I didn't use my sister as a defense for the girl who was rushing because its not my place to out her. She can come out one day when she is ready. Not when I do it for her.

Actually, no, I think when these policies were made back before any of us were born, they were made to keep men and high school girls out of sororities. Transgender people weren't even on the radar. It's something that will be addressed more and more as the years go on, I'm sure.

First, you need to let us know if your sorority is a local, NPC, NPHC, professional etc. and what country you are in (for the Title IX rule). Otherwise we don't know what guidelines apply.

Second, something in this situation doesn't ring true to me. You had this situation in your sorority AND your 14 year old sister is transgender? Maybe it's just my part of the country but transgender isn't that common in young people.

OK, so is it "a few", "not a lot", "a bunch" or "one or two"? :rolleyes:

What was your purpose with this tirade? What did you think you were going to convince all of us to do? Do you think if you scream and act nasty, stomp your feet and call us names that the whole sorority system would apologize & change because you demand it? Let us know how that works out for you.

I still think you are a big, stinkin' liar, so angry that you make vile and unwarranted accusations. Now throw your flounce and slam the door on your way out.

Title IX is a law, passed by the US legislature and signed by the President. Unless we want all our organizations to go fully co-ed, we are unable to initiate someone who is biologically male. We didn't make the law except that we did fight to keep our single gender status. It is unfortunate, but until someone was fully transitioned, we could not initiate them.

That is not at all what Title IX addresses, AGDee. Title IX does not dictate that a sorority is forbidden from initiating men. Social sororities are EXEMPT FROM Title IX rules.

Title IX says, in essence: "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance."

If a chapter of a sorority wanted to accept a transgender woman, they would be subject to the rules of the sorority, not Title IX rules.

To the original poster: I feel you. Keep fighting. The battle will not be won on GreekChat, but it will, indeed, be won.

I am not saying there are no transgenders in houses, but on campuses with BIG greek systems, recommendations are mandatory to get into a house. There would probably be some indication on the rec as activities and probably to gender re-assignment surgery. I am also skeptical about this post as I cannot imagine an 18 year old would have already completed the needed surgeries.

Look I'm about as liberal as it comes especially on gay rights and Transgender etc...

I see a sorority saying no to a Transgender person not because she's Transgender but because according to the school and legally speaking they are still a man. I wouldn't expect a college women's sports team to have a Transgender male to female athlete.

There are some things in life where your gender matters, and this situation is one of them.

It's not just sororities grappling with these issues. Colleges still haven't figure out how to handle it in terms of housing and bathrooms. There was a big story out of Smith earlier this year about admitting a Trans student.

AGDee is right. Our hands are tied. Future generations of transgender kids that are accepted at an early age and are allowed to change their birth certificates will probably get to join the group of their choice. Time will tell. I agree there are transgender sisters in the NPC as we speak, but they are F to M and joined a sorority.

On a related point, would a physician be willing to perform gender reassignment surgery on a minor? Obviously, parental permission would be a requirement (just as it would be for any medical procedure), so I'm just wondering what the ethical implications are in performing such a significant procedure on an individual who is still growing and maturing. Some of the trans people that I'm friends with don't want to fully transition (for various reasons). What might sound great to a 15 year old may not sound good for a 25 year old. Or it might still continue to sound good 10 years later, and a decade has been lost living with the wrong biological sex.

I was talking about my 14 year old biological sister. I'm sorry I thought that was implied by the age

Right, but there is an argument that if some men are initiated, then a sorority could lose its Title IX exemption. The argument would be that by initiating some men, they could not decline to initiate other men simply because they're men.

Your first post was about informal recruitment of a transgender. Not clear as to whether this was a hypothetical situation or something real. Later you discussed your sister.

I'm a little puzzled and baffled as to where this is going. As it stands now, this is an issue yet to be decided or resolved.

ETA: Each sorority has its own rules regarding membership selection. We abide by those rules.

I read a paper on reassignment surgery for kids age 9ish. I guess doctors think it is easier at a young age. I think that is horrible, because of the implication. Like if parents wanted a boy but had girls, oh we will just take her to the doctors at age 9 and then we will have a boy. I am not sure what the procedures are in place, but I just think that is way too you.

We are now discussing the larger issue as a whole than your specific issue(s?).

Many of us here are sympathetic to transgendered people. We're not mean alumnae who are out to destroy the hopes of all transgendered PNMs or aspirants. We are interested in preserving our single sex status, and there are legal implications associated with this issue that have to be considered.

The high school where I teach has at least 7 transgendered students I can think of. 3 are legally transitioned. I do not know if they have had surgery, but I do know that legally they are changed in our systems..... And that's just a public high school of 1800ish students.... Thus it IS possible....

Anna isn't a sorority member. She's a trans woman who's bringing a tall tale to this site for some trollish reason. It takes about a minute of research to figure out who she is.

I'm done with this thread, my original point has clearly been lost on everyone here. And there are people here convinced I'm a liar. To clarify what I meant earlier about my "14 year old sister" for anyone who wants to continue this convo. They are two different people. First you have the girl who rushed for my sorority but I also have a 14 year old biological sister who is transgender. I was expressing how depressing it is that she will never have the same opportunity in life as others. Which is why the situation with the first girl who rushed my sorority hit home so hard with me

The original point is that you completely fabricated this story. You are not a sorority member. None of it it true.

how am I a fake? You have just said I'm a fraud but you have presented no evidence