UConn Hazing
 

"Katie" interview with / about KKG and SAE hazing!


http://katiecouric.com/videos/a-kati...-hillary-holt/

Gloria Alred is her attorney, are you kidding me? She's a 22 yr old active member, why didn't she just leave. Did she try to leave? Was she threatened or persuaded to stay?

I thought she was out for attention from the beginning when the first person she contacted from the ER was the news.

Now she's on Katie telling her story. It's ridiculous.

According to the interview it was the police she contacted first.

In the video posted above Hillary mentions she's from Hawaii.

That said, please think about the life perspective she brought with her when she entered college and before/during the alleged hazing.

Hillary reacted based upon a life perspective that did not include ignoring what she believed occurred. Being interviewed for her side of the story may seem natural to her because she's seen it done time and again in the media. Thus, she's not necessarily out for attention.

Forced to drink, forced to go from room to room, forced to walk down into the basement, "we had to play beer pong" - Did they shove a gun in her face? Did they barricade the doors, preventing her from leaving? She wasn't an 18 year old freshman who thinks they have to do everything they're told to do in order to "get in".

She was 22, an initiated member, a junior with life experience, and seemingly able to assess situations and sense danger. Yet, the story she tells sounds like it was pure coercion; she uses the word "forced" several times.

• She "was picked up and taken to dinner then driven to a fraternity house", led to the back of the house

• She "was picked up and taken to dinner then driven to a fraternity house".

• Driven to fraternity house, led to the back of the house, and saw the door of a room was open, where they were "supposed to enter". She said that the room made her feel intimidated.

• She entered the room where 3 girls were blindfolded and about 10 other un-blindfolded KKG and SAE members standing around.

• Told them to line up against the wall, silently, for about 20 minutes, during which the had to fry like bacon, jump while holding their ankles, cursing and "professing our love for Kappa"

• "Beers slammed down in front of our faces", "forced to take shots" (3), given a piece of string and more alcohol.

• Led to another room and there were bottles of alcohol, then led downstairs to the basement where they played beer pong (why didn't she just leave???) and "forced" to drink whether she answered questions right or wrong.

• Katie asks if she was scared or did you ever say you didn't want to drink anymore?
  She answers:
  "I held onto the bottle of wine for a while because I didn't want to drink it at that point because I'm a lightweight, I'm small, I'm 105 pounds, so I knew my limits". Says she isn't "one of those girls" who drinks every weekend.

• She blacked out, woke up alone in hospital.

• Gloria Allred states that UConn investigation says that Hillary was "required to take quite a bit of alcohol", but when she was brought bad to her dorm, a fellow KKG didn't want to send her to hospital but an RA insisted.

• Father says Hillary was hazed, parents and daughter filed a claim with Community Standards and police investigated. Gloria Allred wants "justice" to help Hillary "who was significantly harmed". Hillary said that she's essentially ignored by KKG and SAE on campus.

Hillary started an organization to help hazing victims.

Now, it's not my intent to blame the victim, but this 22 year-old adult had several apparent opportunities to leave the location, claims she was "forced to drink" but stated only that she felt "intimidated" upon entering the first room, and answers that she "knew her limits" when asked if she ever refused to drink.

I understand the dichotomy - how scary, difficult to say now, and how vulnerable that real hazing can make you feel, and on the flip side, it's easy to look at complying with hazing orders as that the person "let" themselves be hazed - but there seem to be many holes in the story.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the girl drank too much, ended up at the hospital, feared punishment from the Judicial board, and exaggerated the story. I could be wrong, but I just don't feel like anything was "forced."

I agree with everything you've said here.

I don't understand what being from Hawaii has to do with creating a life perspective in which going to the media does not equate to being out for attention. One may always refuse to speak to the media.

So, just to clarify, she was an active member at the time the hazing occurred? Why didn't she just walk out? It's not like she was a pledge who was having her initiation held over if she didn't comply.

I'm not going to presume anything about this situation and whether or not she had a "motive" for reporting Kappa and SAE for hazing, but let's not pretend that you can't be hazed as an initiated member.

Growing up in Hawaii means that she didn't have much if any direct exposure to Greek life. She didn't have a lot of older friends who would share stories of their Greek experiences. More importantly, she started college in Hawaii so she didn't have first-hand experience with traditional Greek life unless she happened to attend the one Hawaii campus which has an NPC chapter. My point is that by the time she transferred to UConn she was well beyond the impressionable age where you just accept things the way they are, which is what happens with many younger college students. A girl with Hillary's background would be much more likely to speak out publicly against something she felt was wrong.

Does this automatically mean she didn't willingly partake in all that alcohol? We have no way to know.

OPhiAGinger, I don't see a connection between having minimal or no exposure to Greek Life and speaking to the media/the involvement of Gloria Allred.

There are colleges and universities in Hawaii and at least one school has Greek Life.

Moreover, the average college student in the USA has minimal or no exposure to Greek Life. That's especially the case for first generation college students and racial and ethnic minorities. Yet most of these people wouldn't think to go to the media to report an unfavorable experience as a pledge, let alone as an active member. For most of these people even contacting the school is a huge feat so contacting the police is relatively uncommon. They definitely would be unlikely to contact the media.

Luckily, some of our GLOs expel members (and ban applicants for membership) if they report something that was either fabricated or was their own doing (having regrets doesn't mean someone harmed you against your will).

When Gloria Allred enters the picture, I tend to have little sympathy for the "victim." At that point, it has become about media attention and a big settlement check.

This.

And this.

Oh I agree that you can be hazed as an initiated member, I just think its much more uncommon.

The drive to "fit in" and not risk being made fun of or ostracized from your circle of friends is very powerful. It doesn't matter if the member is a new member/pledge, initiated member, or alumna/alumni. It's all well-and-good to sit here and say she should have done this or that but, let's be honest, it's really hard to stand up and leave a situation like this because of the amount of peer pressure a person is under to just go along with it because "it's always been done that way".

Let's stop blaming the person who the hazing was done to.

I don't think that's quite what people are doing. Some are saying that some of the circumstances—particularly the immediate media involvement and the involvement of Gloria Allred—cause them to wonder if she was really hazed. That's a legitimate question.

Not every accusation is a truthful accusation.

We are questioning whether this was "hazing" in the sense the word is typically used.

Throughout our lives there are pressures to conform and "fit in". People can be very mean even after we have joined groups. This can include physical altercation.

But, here's the thing, and this has been said in previous threads, we need to stop throwing the "hazing" label on everything that makes someone frown. And we need to stop pretending that label is void of any questioning and discussion.

If this was truly as forced as this woman claimed, there are so many things she could have done without going to the media (she called the police but what about the sorority representatives and even the school?). She can't claim she was afraid of being ostracized and therefore contacted the media after calling the police. She better hope there's enough evidence to substantiate her claims or she could be risking having her membership revoked (if this sorority revokes memberships).

DrPhil - the sorority in question does have procedures in place that can be used to terminate membership.

I do not know anything about the actions that have been or will be taken in this situation.

I'm with you Dr. Phil on the fact that we get peer pressure throughout life. It wasn't hazing in the usual sense of Do X or you won't get initiated.

I think their's a big gray area in this. Was everyone in that room in either SAE or KKG, how is this different from a group of kids from the 4H club pressuring one of their friends to drink.

I think a lot of this has to do with it being a GREEK organization and the scrutiny the media has being giving it lately.

This situation could happen to anyone at college. Just because everyone is Greek doesn't make it hazing.

Point of clarification: It's implied in the video that she was a pledge, not an initiated member. In the beginning of the video, Hillary said that she started college in Hawaii but wanted to try out the east coast which is when she applied to UConn. I know it's not common to rush as a junior transfer but if she did, then the "it's not like she was a pledge" arguments become moot.

That being said, there are still lots of gaping holes in the story. Like her assertion that she "held on to the wine bottle for awhile" because she didn't want to drink it. Also, the wine story went unfinished--when she refused to drink it, what did the other girls do? What stopped her from doing that with the beers, the shots, etc? She said she "knew her limits" and held on to the wine instead of drinking it but offered no explaination of why she didn't exercise the same decision at other points in the night. That part may have been explained and edited out but that gap leaves lots of things to wonder.

I'm not blaming her for this incident (and it sounds like several students are open to disciplinary action) but her inconsistent behavior does call for some pause.

Don't know anything other than what I saw on the very stilted presentation with Gloria Allred in all her glory. However, have there not been other issues at UConn involving sorority/fraternity hazing issues recently? it sounds like a systemic issue that may be a problem on that campus that does need to be addressed. Not taking it to the national media but addressed in house.

The more I think about it, the more bogus it seems. Putting myself in the shoes of the alleged victim, let's say I wake up in the hospital after a night of extreme partying, maybe even some hazing. My first instinct would be to thank whoever put the entire organization on the line by getting me potentially life saving medical treatment.

That's actually the real issue I have with this thing blowing up the way it has. It tells our undergrads (who are college students and underage drinking is always going to happen with college students, greek or non-greek) that if they suspect one of their brother/sisters has overimbibed to the point of needing medical attention, that if they seek that medical attention, they are probably going to lose their charter and even face discipline on campus... and hell... maybe even Gloria Allred will spew some bile about them on Nancy Grace.

Our respective HQs and even state legislators need to look at policies granting immunity to individuals and organizations who procure medical treatment for individuals who have overimbibed. This current policy of creating severe consequences for doing the right thing is going to get people killed if it hasn't already.

I know that some schools have a good Samaritan policy (for lack of anything better to call it) for people who take care of over-imbibers, underage or not. The fear with GLOs is that someone will turn it around and say having such a policy means excessive drinking is something that happens often and possibly open them up to more lawsuits. Obviously I think this is crap, but I also think it's what would happen with a written policy.

I know its a whole different discussion, but I honestly think lowering the drinking age to 18 is the responsible thing to do. It's difficult situation for a college since students start underage and come of drinking age during college. The alcohol will always be there, but underage drinking is still illegal so as a result kids drink more quicker, go to great lengths to hide it including not getting someone help and many other things.

If it was legal at 18 I think it would solve a lot of these issues.

When I was in college, the drinking age was 18 for beer and wine, and 21 for liquor. I know the reason for the federally-forced change was drunk driving among young drivers. I'd be interested to see statistics analyzing whether the change in the drinking age had an effect on that problem. It certainly seems to me that binge-drinking among college students is much more of a problem than it was when I was in school, though I have no clue whether that is just my perception and whether a variety of factors may be at play there.

But I've always thought it odd, to say the least, that a 20-year-old can be sent off to war to die for his country, but he can't legally have a beer before he goes.

I've always thought that, and also its weird to me that at 16 you're mature enough to drive and get a job but aren't ready for the responsibility of being able to vote.

Part of the drunk driving issues were people driving over state lines (PA has always been 21 and Ohio was 18 til the last minute, to cite one example).

The only reason states changed was that they were blackmailed - if they didn't change they lost federal highway funding.

This should be eliminated, but to avoid the state to state issues you should either have to be a permanent or temporary (college id) resident to drink at the lower age. That would eliminate a lot of the crossing of the border.

Legally speaking, I think it's a pretty strong defense for GLOs that our undergrads assume the risks of what goes along with drinking when they do so and therefore assume the liability for the foreseeable consequences. I really don't think this young lady has much of a legal case. I'm not hearing that she was under any sort of duress when told to drink. Peer pressure, legally speaking, is not the same thing as duress. A gun held to her temple is duress.

The hazing concerns are real though and any investigation should rightly address those issues.

What makes her story unbelievable is not that she's legal to drink, or that she may have been an initated member, but her own language.

"I was driven to dinner"

"I was led..."

"I was told..."

Not:

"They blindfolded me and shoved me into a car then pulled me out of the car and dragged me by the hair into a fraternity house"

"They threatened me that they'd take away my membership if I didn't do what they wanted"

"They forced me to play beer pong by tying a string to my arm and making me 'throw' a pingpong ball across a table full of red solo cups filled with beer"

"They held me down and poured alcohol down my throat"

Every accusation in the (albeit edited) interview is a passive statement. Victims don't normally speak that way; they typically use active verbs.

Obviously, I don't want her to have been hazed/hurt/threatened, but the story just doesn't add up to her victimization.

I absolutely agree with you.

I hate the idea of 'pregaming.' Drinking before an event because students think they will be unable to drink at the event. So they try to guess how much to drink before they leave. They usually overestimate. Then if alcohol is present they continue to drink to excess.

I also hate the mystery punches common at some schools. What the heck is in there?

Allowing 18 yos to consume bottles or cans of beer allows them to monitor their intake more closely and become responsible drinkers.

I saw an older interview in which the news reporter said that there was a party going on and Holt said that there were "7-9" other people in the room. However, in the Katie Couric interview, there's no mention anything about a party, giving the impression that it was just her that was driven to the SAE house, and Holt says there were 10-15 people in "that room".

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/aro...e-blacked-out/

Again, what corroboration of her story is there?

Hearing personal stories from friends who were in a sorority (including stories about fraternity parties and alcohol) would have given her context for that night even if those stories didn't exactly match what happened at the SAE house. We all evaluate situations based on our personal experiences and the experiences of other people we trust. Without much (if any) personal experience with fraternity parties, she didn't have much material to evaluate whether that night at the SAE house was no big deal or something major.

That lack of context coupled with her being older when she entered the Greek world makes her reaction much more understandable. Teenagers are much more likely to accept undesirable situations, especially if they think it's something that everybody else accepts without question (based on what they've heard through their network). Twenty-somethings are more confident about pushing back. And if she felt that this "hazing" was part of a bigger, ongoing, pervasive problem at UConn she might have felt obligated to shine a spotlight on it to help eradicate that kind of behavior.

And engage the services of the feminist movement's version of Jesse Jackson? Nah, it makes her look like she's trying to cash in.

Maybe there's a book deal in the works?

Gloria Allred is a pretty big spotlight to shine on it, wouldn't you say?

Embarrasingly big. Big enough to lead some to suspect that this has nothing to do with feeling obigated to shine a light on bad behavior—that's what police and college administrators, or even the local press, are for—and lots to do with attention and money.

What does this have to do with going to the media?

Pushing back doesn't include going to the media.

For example, in the NPHC, the majority of people going through collegiate and alumnae/alumni/graduate intake, and who are new members, are 20 yo and older. Many of them don't feel comfortable pushing back but those who do are not inclined to contact the media. Alcohol plays a very small or nonexistent role in most NPHC antics but other claims of mistreatment are taken more seriously when the accuser doesn't bypass other means and seek the media.

If someone wanted to handle an issue discreetly, then yes, they would take it to the organization(s) involved. If they thought a crime was broken, they would take it to the local police. But if they thought that this was part of an ongoing pervasive problem that those existing organizations had not dealt with after multiple opportunities (i.e., a pattern of hazing at UConn) then it makes sense to get the media involved.

I'm just saying that there is a rational thought process that leads to media involvement, other than the hope for a big cash payoff. None of us knows what really happened that night or what this young lady's motivations are. I'm just offering an alternate perspective.

Are you kidding me? She's 22, if a 22 yr old can't assess if a situation might be negative, unacceptable or a bad idea she's got much bigger problems than hazing.

And just because I'm not sure since from your posts it sounds like you're saying she showed up at uconn this fall is a new member.

She's a 22 yr old initiated member, she has her own responsibility in this, it didn't only happen TO her.

Then stop attributing this to Hawaii, age, and transfer student. Just say she wanted to make some noise.