Terrorist rights???
 

I really cant believe that this is an issue, but somehow, it doesnt suprise me that it is.

Do you think that the TERRORISTS being held at Camp X-Ray in Cuba are being treated fairly ?? If you ask me, they have it pretty fucking good!! Compared to the conditions they lived in in Afghanistan, they are in the Penthouse right now! Or perhaps we should treat them like American prisoners tend to be treated when they are captured by other nations... beat them constantly and drag them through the streets!!

These are potentially some of the most dangerous people in the world, who would not think twice about killing themselves to take you or me with them. Yet, people(liberal pussies) feel the need to make sure they have every opportunity to recieve comfort and aid, make sure, they are feeling ok.... give me a break!!! I say let them sleep in a building less than 100 ft from where they are being held and then tell me that you dont want them to be contained the way they are!!

You're proud to be an American right Beef? Well, with out the following words, American would have never existed.

"...That all men are created equal, that they are indowed by their Creator certain inailiable rights..."

Im not saying they should have no rights whatsoever...
But for people to be complaining about what they THINK is happening based on a few pictures is just rediculous!

Thats riducluas (sp?) so is everything else in the world.

They probably have more rights than their women did back home.

Well, we don't know how they are really being treated and we don't know what they are capable of or what they know.

I don't much care what we do to them. We could take them out and execute them wahtever. I do care if we pervert, circumscribe, or make a mockery of our Laws to do it because the consitution and our laws are the only thing that protects us from abuses by people with power.

For whatever reason our governmental structure has evolved into organized distrust. Our Founders seems to be astute students of human nature and knew that not all people are equal in their decision making capabilities. Therefore we have a Constitution that guarentees due process. ITs our Contract.

So again, while I don't care what we do with them, I do care if we start twisting our rules, because that is a slippery slope.

well said!! I think all that matters is that people apply the rules they make to themselves AND to others. Double standards should not be accepted for the sake of credibility.

damn that, they shouldn't have any rights, given the circumstances and the threats they are still giving to the guards at Camp X-Ray about wanting to kill Americans, i see the situation as acceptable. Further, since they aren't classified as P.O.W.'s, they aren't granted prisoner rights under the Geneva Convention.

So, Fack 'em.

They aren't classified as POW's because we are deliberately not considering them POW's and no one is in a position to tell us what to do. Fine with me, I certainly don't need the drama of anger and self righteousnes to justify getting information from them and then executing them or whatever.

You might want to think twice about torturing and killing prisoners though. IT doesn't bode well for american soldiers and civilians in the future.

The universe has a maxim: Take what you want . . . and pay for it.

So we need to figure out exactly what we want here and how to get it and then colldly execute those objectives. Without the sugarcoating and bullshit. And then we better be willing to face trhe consequences, usually unforseen, without complaining.

I thought this was a war we were fighting? We took prisoners. Therefore they are prisoners of war. This is called logic.

Fine with me, but we better stop critizing other governments also. Let's not be hypocritical.

Let stop saying we represent democracy, cause our past doesn't say so.

Let's be honest and say we want to kick ass and our foreign policy has little to do with democracy or freedom, our foreign policy is our best interest. It's called REal Politik.

My suggestion:
Get rid of the Leahey Amendment and start training the Indonesian forces to get rid of terrorist threat in Indonesia. Like what we are doing with the Phillipines. However, we got to smack Congressman Brownback of Texas and tell him to shut the freak up. Saying that the Phillipines is the next afghanistan is stupid, esp. with Arroyo gaining opposition about US involvement not only from her adversary, but also from her Vice President and her foreign minister.

this isn't a philosophy course my friend. They haven't yet been classified as pow's. AND, personally, I hope they aren't, they don't deserve or need rights, IMO.

d

TECHNICALLY, there has been no declaration of war, so there could be no prisoners of war. Technically anyways...
Most of these "poeple" arent even Afghan, they are forgein Al Qaida fighters..

These guys arent little angels that made a small mistake and deserve a slap on the wrist. These are the scum of the earth and are being treated much better than they truely deserve...

On a site note, I saw the funniest t-shirt ever. It has a picture of christ being escorted out of an American Airline flight. The caption said "If Jesus was alive, he would not be welcomed in American Airline."

OK people, flame me. :)

Yeah, well when I saw the ruins of the World Trade Center towers, the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, and the damage that was done to the Pentagon, I felt very, very bad and sad also.

These guys would slit our soldiers' throats if given the opportunity, and they would be more than happy to give away information about the base if they were to escape. So, I don't feel one bit sorry for the fact that they are being treated as dangerous prisoners. That's exactly what they are. If they didn't want to face the consequences, then they shouldn't have started the war. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. All of my sympathy has been given to the 9/11 victims, and I have none to spare on these butchers of innocents.

When I see countless mothers giving birth without their husbands there, children without parents, the ruins of a beautiful building complex reduced to rubble, the pentagon broken, all because those bastards were involved in some way with the 9/11 attacks, that makes me feel very very bad and sad.

An American boy was CANED in Singapore for vandalizing a car. These people belonged to a group that helped pull off an act of mass terrorisim and we feel bad becasue they're in a chain gang?! :eek: :confused: :mad:

Alright people, I am sending a giant eyeroll out to almost all of you :rolleyes:.

A lot of you need to stop with the angry rhetoric because there is no point and it clouds the issues. Also, its a weknes of character if you need anger, rationaization, and self justification in order to do unpleasant things that need to be done. Its also dangerous to dehumanize your opponent. Which is what some of the terms you are using indicate.

There is very little value judgement here. Its not about right or wrong, thats too complicated and hard to defend. ITs realy about Us against Them. Lets keep it that way and stop trying to us words like deserve . . . all it does is open us up to attacks on the flaws in our our self justifications.

I agree with Arya that we need to just come out and say it like the way it is. We are like Machiavelli with a conscience given us by TV.

But I understand that most people need the propaganda and rah rah to feel better about themselves and the unpleasant things that need to be done. Kind of like a PC fantasy land. Weak, but again a trait that will allow me to make more money and be more successful as life goes on (sounds of cash registers in the background).

As a related but off topic Pessimists are often a lot more realistic in their assessments of reality, but optimists are more happy, if delusional.

Bad and Sad? Are you freakin kiddin me? I can't believe anyone would feel that way. These are the guys who are the backbone of the fools who killed 3,000 of your brothers and sisters, and you feel bad? These same people were given bagels on their plane trip to Cuba and were de-liced because us Americans are humane. I'd say thats pretty nice of the US Military. Hmm, clean orange jump suits, heat, food, water, no more lice....thats pretty darn good.

I say fuk these guys.......I wish they would turn them over to the public, I'd be the first one in line to kick them in the junk.

Exactly, I mean I know the Indonesian want to get rid of the extremist, but they need the training and the arms (which they buy, we don't give them). Unfortunately, the LEahy amendment forbid our militray from training them and them buying arm. Why, because of East Timor, which, by the way, we were also party too. So let's cut this propogandan bs and help our friends. I encourage ya all to contact your local congressman and tell themto dump the leahy amendment.

Just give the terrorist the same rights that the terrorist gave the people in the towers, pentagon and planes. Simple enough.

_______________________:rolleyes:

______________________ ! :p

$#^%@%&#@%&#$*&^%&#^#@%$%@$#^%$&%$&$#%^@^%$@!%$@%^ %#

That is Hello in K-Pax :)

lol...do you also know any other out of this world languages?

Ngiyenza azi cishe ncane zulu

No, but I do know very little zulu

Um, HELLO, is there anyone on this board who actually thinks that these guys wouldn't take over that base and kill every American in it if they could? The simple fact remains that the prisoners are, in fact, dangerous and our military is dealing with them in an appropriate manner. THAT is the issue, and if I want to throw in some angry rhetoric then I will. It doesn't mean that I have a "weak" character or need to justify anything to myself just to appease my conscience. So please don't be so condescending, James. Some of us just choose not to over-analyze every move our government makes. That doesn't make us irrational idiots who eat up every piece of propaganda handed to us, nor does it make us overzealous patriots who bury our heads in the sand every time someone cries foul over an action our country has taken concerning foreign policy.

Personally, I'm tired of hearing the whining from all the liberals protesting that the prisoners' civil rights aren't being upheld. If they want to put them up at the Ritz, then so be it. Give them the keys to those cells and let them handle those men without our military present. We'll see how long it takes them to change their tunes when there aren't any bars or guns to separate them from the religious zealots who consider all Americans to be evil and better off dead. :rolleyes:

_______________________:rolleyes:

Forgive me for being angry with terrorists...:rolleyes:

Dump the Leahy amendment? Are you serious?

The USA going into different countries and training various paramilitary factions is what got us into this mess in the first place. Pres. Bush senior worked with Osama Bin Ladin and his men extensively. Granted, ths was all during the cold war when we all assumed that we faced a much bigger threat in teh USSR, but we will be dealing with what came of that executive decision for decades to come.

And this is all not to mention the extreme damage that the USA did throughout Central America by using the same tactics- educating paramilitary groups which then turn around and either attack us (against which we retaliate) or against their own people (when we turn a blind eye as long as we get our oil and/or money and other goods).

The USA playing big brother might save us some short term strife, but in the long run I think it has been proven to be disastrou for all concerned.

No one is saying don't be angry with terrorists, but htink it through.

We live in a country that is supposedly built on a system of law. Precedent is one of the pillars of our legal system. If we set a precedent of treating ANYONE, even these men (who are beneath scum IMHO) in a way that goes against our lwas, it will bite us in the butt, and we will lose the perceived high moral ground (the rest of the world dislikes us anyway, and as you can see it takes only one bad news report for us to go from America the victim to America the oppressor).

There is an outright ban on all arms trading, from bullets to F-16. Boeing and Lockheed could have avoided downsizing if not for the LEahey Amendment. SO, instead, the Indonesian government bought their arms from the Russians and the European. We lost billion in arms trade. And thisi s not a para-military organizaton, this is the armed force of a nation that have always supported us. Sure they are going through rough time, but we need them to be stabilized because:

(a) Indonesia is right in the middle of the world economy, 76% of the world economy uses the sea lane that goes through the region.
(b) a stable Indonesia is a stable S.E. Asia. And trust me, you do not want a destablize S.E. Asia.
(c) Indonesia could be the holy grail when it come to having a legitimate democratically elected government where the population are Muslim. (Indonesia is a democratic government)
(d) The Commender of the Pacific fleet himself says that Indonesian armed forces need the military hardware because many of their planes, tanks and boats are running down and they can not buy replacement.
(e) I'm not alone in this regard, CATO, Henry Kissinger (sure I don't like him, but you got to make pact with the devil some time), US Dept. of Defense and other want to restart the different training and selling of weapons to their armed forces.
(f) We have little or no influence on the military right now because of the LEahey AMendment. If we returned to normality, we have better influence

No more rhetoric, it's time to practice real politik.

How exactly are these prisoners being tortured, skip? From the reports I've read, even the Red Cross members examining the men are agreeing that the men are being treated fairly well on the base.

I don't presume that I know at all what is happening down in the camps. If it's ok by the Red Cross then its ok by me. But if there are concerns in the worldwide community then they need to be addressed because we are at a point where we don't want to lose support for this war- there is far too much (if only in the way of national pride) invested in it.

I don't think that I am giving in to rhetoric, just observing the effects of former policy.

There may seem to be a number of great reasons (all of the ones you listed are compelling) but in the long run I think it will be a mistake. It is always a mistake. Once America involves itself in the affairs of any given foreign country, it generally takes a war and a couple of billion dollars spent before we get out of it again (Vietnam, Korea, Phillipines, Central America, The Middle East have all proven costly in manpower as well as capital).

As for providing arms, that would spur American industry, and then in 20 years when tht country is financially unstable from the various wars amongst the political factions that we armed, or who received the arms through corrupt dealers, and the country has split into several deadly factions resulting from the weakened centralized government that the people lost faith in when the officials 'betrayed' them by giving in to the American dogs, and they have massacred their own people and want to unify themselves as a country again, who becomes the Enemy? Us. Who is subject to a fresh wave of terrorist acts? Us.

If I'm understanding the news correctly, the main problem that people are having with our treatment of the prisoners is that they are not being classified as POW's, which means that they are in "legal limbo," so to speak, because they aren't entitled to a trial unless they are actual POW's.

Right now, the government is still trying to determine how best to deal with these men, and may be holding off on POW status until they come up with a safe, effective way to try the prisoners and, also, get information from them that will help us in our fight against terrorism. I can definitely understand why the government is hesitating. They want to be absolutely sure that they are doing everything possible to prevent future terrorist acts.

I think that we have and will continue to follow the rules of war as stated by the Geneva Convention. However, it may take us some time to sort through all of the 1,000's of prisoners that we've taken and interview them for any knowledge they have. If the rest of the world would just give us a little breathing room to accomplish that important task instead of jumping down our throats about every move we make, then I think everything will work out as it is suppose to in the end. The men will get the trials that they are entitled to, and we will feel safer as a country.

Instead, it seems as if people are just waiting for us to make a questionable move so that they can complain about it, and I don't think that the government should be rushed into anything that is so important to our national security just because we might offend another nation's idea of morality.

Lovelyivy...
 

I do agree with you on the point you made about America getting involved in other nations' affairs. You're absolutely right. We help out certain groups when it is in our best interest to do so, without seeing the big picture and what might happen down the road. That's how Bin Laden got started -- with the help of the American military.

If our government would consider the big picture more often, we would probably not be hated so much by other countries. I think that we should still assist needy countries, but leave arms and combat lessons out of it!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lovelyivy84

Sorry to cut the quote, but it was getting a little long. By the way, I enjoy this debate, its reinvegorating to debate without name calling or other stuff.

The thing is that our manpower will never get involved in Indonesia aside from training, even that will prob. be held either in Australia or Hawaii. The difference btw the location you have staed is that it is in our best interest to support Indonesia and its military. We have cut virtually all ties with the Indonesian military. Our influence are little to none. THe military are making great progress in curtailing their abuses and, believe it or not, the Minister of Defense is a civilian, unlike the past. Another plus is that the Chief of Staff is an admiral. It's better if you e-mail me, this is prob. boring for other people.

My overriding concern is the safety of Americans, both civilian and military. I like the way my life is, want it to continue the way it is and I make no apologies for it.

We are the strongest nation on earth and therefore we can do whatever the hell we please. That's it in a nutshell and I don't give a rat's behind who agrees with me and who doesn't.

That is actually the major point. Under the rules for POW's you can't interrogate them (prisoners). They are only obligated to reveal name rank and serial number. One of the reasons why we aren't calssifying them is so we can use more persuasive methods of getting information, because obviously they are not going to say much if asked nicely. And we really don't want a lot of scrutiny on that or have our hands tied by obeying rules that we get outraged about when others don't follow.

See, but these billions of dollars spent don't necessarily spell financial ruin for the US - Keynesian deficit spending? I think you're making the same argument for both sides here - military spending is a boon on the economy, hence repealing of the Leahy Amendment makes sense on that level . . . and wartime military spending has the same (albeit impulsory) effect, no?

(I'll look for cites later if desired. . . )