Will someone explain to me, a mere Boy about Total?
 

I understand the idea of formal Rush. Get all the new people out during the same days and have the sororities vie for them.

But what is the rationalization behind putting an arbitray cap on membership in any one sorority?

IF I want to be a DZ or XO etc and they want to me shouldn't I just be allowed to pledge them without worrying about a cut off that the sorority itself didn't create?

It dosn't seem Rational. If I want to be DZ I should be able to be them, not told they would love you but you were 21st out of 20 spaces they had available, shame your name started with a W.

And so what if half the girls want one sorority in any given year, thats called competition.

Also, i read on hee that some schools might have as much as 400 girls not placed because of Total? Shouldn't rhey be raising Total? sheez.

Total is a cap on membership that is applied to all sororities on a given campus, not just one. It's set by the campus Panhellenic, and reevaluated as necessary. (So if there are a lot of women interested in joining a sorority over a couple of years, Panhel may raise total, or may invite a new sorority to colonize.)

Total isn't used during formal rush. Instead, quota is used (# women attending pref parties / # of sororities, typically). This is why sororities can be over total - if total is 80 and quota is usually around 30, you could potentially have a chapter with 120 members.

Total becomes important during informal/COB rush. A chapter at or over total can't hold informal rush. A chapter below total can hold rush, but can only extend bids until they reach total. This allows smaller chapters to grow.

In neither case are bid lists sorted alphabetically, so Ms. W. wouldn't be left out in the cold simply because of her name.

Thank you, you have clarified the teminology but I am still not seing the reason.

Total is a cap placed on total membership, why is there a cap on total membership? I would wager good money that there are groups that could havea lot more members if they weren't restricted.

Also, why have quota or formal rush? If quota is 30 but 40 girls really want to join XYZ and XYZ really wants them, thats 10 girls that can't be a member of that group. That hardly seems fair.

I used the example of the last name because if you have 20 really good candidates, any of which you would be glad to have as a member, then something as little as when they came up during chapter discussion could be a factor in a decision.

Also, wasn't it an LSU thread or another southern School that said they had hundreds of unplaced women? Surely they couldn't all be undesirable? And I don't see that school raising Total.


Oh well, maybe its just a girl thing.

I can give you one thought on why. The purpose of NPC sororities (well, one purpose) is to further the growth of each of the 26 groups. If we don't put caps on membership in them equally on a campus, there wouldn't be equity in the groups that we do have. Each NPC group is in full support of seeing other NPC groups survive and be successful ie: If Tri Sigma and another chapter were on a campus and Tri Sigma was at 100 and the other chaper at 20, we would work to become more equal. Reason? If the other chapter stayed at 20 forever, they eventually would have dwindling membership, or no membership. That is not the goal of being an NPC sorority.
I hope that helps a little bit....or maybe I've confused even more.
Great question though.

That pretty much sums it up. The idea behind total and quota is to put all the sororities on an equal playing field. If you went through formal rush and one or two of the chapters were noticibly smaller than the others, you probably would not want to join them. If a group misses quota for even a year, it can be really hard to recover. That is why the smaller chapters are given the opportunity to catch up through snap bidding and COB. If a chapter has consistant membership problems, it is likely they may have to fold. This is not just a hit to the chapter and national organization, but the entire panhellenic community.

Here's an example from my school...

We have 8 NPC sororities and during the first few days of Formal Recruitment, many girls want "the big three sororities" (because they're bigger and are good at recruiting). Our quota for Structured is usually only about 10-15 girls so on the second day, our Rho Chis really sit down with their groups and say "hey, you girls are all talking about the same few sororities, and if you all are, then the girls in the other groups probably are too..." At this point, the PNMs go into thirds parties with a more open attitude and find a place where they really connect (whether it be "the big three" or another chapter").

If those three sororities didn't have a cap, a lot of PNMs wouldn't give other sororities a chance. And while these three sororites do well in Structured, they have a hard time keeping their members because they tend to be a little more fake. I think the problem comes when a given sorority strings a PNM along just because they want to be sure they get quota, but then they don't have space for her.

Also - if you were in a sorority that had no cap and had 952975 sisters - how could you ever get to know them all? How could you call them your sisters if you didn't even recognize half of them?

I think that a lost of PNM go into formal rush with the idea that the biggest houses are the best just because they have the most people. It's hard to change that preconception, even though there are a lot of advantages to being in a smaller house. Someone else pointed out, if you have 1000 members, how would you even know them all?? It makes it a little more resonable for those smaller houses who might otherwise have no chance during Rush.

Why do you need equality? Whats wrong with survival of the fittest? Your system doesn't work anyway. You are still going to have some organizations that are big and some are small. I am not saying bigger is better but you will always have that.

I sort of agree with the person who started this thread. I understand the reasoning behind quota and all, the main reason on our campus being that it supposedly helps keep all groups similar in size. Not true. All the sororities on my campus are large, but some are a lot larger than others despite quota. I think it just creates tighter competition because you know there are only so many spots in any given house. And all the houses are under intense pressure to "get quota" to they won't look bad...which is, quite frankly...well, I'll just put it nicely and say that what in the heck sort of difference does it matter? We got quota, but trust me, it was through hard work and just plain deviousness.

James, you are hardly a "mere" boy LOL :D.

I think women are more concerned about things like this in general than men are...just a difference of the sexes.

And it SUCKS that if you are in a chapter that is smaller, and enjoy the fact that it's smaller, you are made to feel that's not OK and numbers are all that matter. Under pressure like that it's no wonder some groups have trouble recruiting. Some people want to be in a sorority of 200...some want to be in a sorority of 20. As long as you and the other members are happy, that should be all that matters.

James, a lot of the schools that have 400 women get cut from rush don't use the quota total system and that is why the women get cut. IU is one example of a system that doesn't use Q/T and why NPC recommends using the Q/T system.

What system do they use Laura? Why they are cutting so many girls, do they have to? Describe the process if you can? Thanks.

Sorry for the questions but I am insatiably curious:)

James its called the computerized system , where that damn thing picks the houses for you in a way. It sucks. I might like XYZ and they might like me, but it doesnt mean im going back. I think this is what Laura is talking about cuz UM has it...correct me if im wrong

There is nothing wrong with a computerized system. If you were hand-matched instead, the same rules would be followed. The computer simply does it faster.

no offense, but tell that to the houses and rushees at UM who have had major issues with it. But with over 900 girls rushing, it is the fastest way to do stuff.

James! Skip! Give It Up, Boys
 

You'll never, ever understand why the girls do it different than the boys. 33girl is right: it's a difference between the sexes. To us guys, it really is mysterious and confounding as to why the girls bind themsleves with these endless, complex rules. What's more confounding is that the small sororities - the ones most likely to be destroyed by the rules - are among the ones most frantic in their insistence that the rules be applied. The truth is that on a campus where there are a lot of good sororities, there are some small, weak sororities, and they do not have any real chance of ever getting better under the rules. The most they can hope for is survival. There is no chance at all that they can ever improve to compete with the good, big ones. Not so in the fraternity world where the lack of rules puts a premium on aggressiveness, passion and competition. If a big fraternity stumbles because they have not been aggressive in seeking out new members, a small-but-ambitious fraternity can overtake them.
It is not and has never been that way with the sororities. Formal rush is full of rules about what you can say, do, how you can present yourselves, so that it is painfully obvious to everyone who goes through rush just who are the leaders and who are perceived to be the losers. If a young woman goes through rush and figures she can't get a bid to one of the presitge houses, she is more likely not to join at all. The small, weak sororities are like mom-and-pop stores trying to compete with the big mall chains.
Now the truth is that the small, weak soroities CAN COMPETE EFFECTIVELY but they never do it because they are so schooled in the culture of rules and punishments that they don't know how. The members generally don't think of themselves as being aggressive and competitive; they generally don't think in terms of beating the system. They do not know how. They've bought into the notion seen earlier on this board that NPC and PanHellenic are there to help everyone be good and keep the system strong. What the rules do is keep the strong ones strong, and keep the weak ones weak. Do you know, are you aware, of ANY small, weak sorority on ANY campus with a campus (with a good sorority system) that has ever worked its way up the ladder through aggressive, competitive strategies and overtaken one of the leading sororities? Have you ever seen, or heard of, a sorority that traditionally has around 35-50 women ever following an aggressive plan to grow and compete with the 150-women chapters on the same campus? Never. Ever.
Does anyone doubt this? Let's try an experiment. Go to a large campus with big, strong sorority system. Allow a new sorority to come on campus unencumbered by any rules whatsoever. At many schools, the large sororities won't pledge junior transfers because they can fill their ranks with freshmen only. Our new sorority will fill it's ranks with junior transfers, all of whom fit the profile of the aggressive, creative, competitor. Our stated plan is to create a 'top competitor' on campsu; our goal is to become one of the best. Then, they will informally recruit younger women who have not gone through sorority rush, or who went through but did not pledge because sororities they liked did not have room for them. By the time our new group participates in formal rush, they will look just like, act just like, have the same fraternity relationships as, all the traditionally powerful sorority chapters.
Sorry to ramble on like this. I love the sororities, and I know the sorority system as it's constituted is exactly what the sororities want. We guys look at their system, and listen to their patient explanations, and scratch our heads. They have what they want, and it's none of our business. But, it is strange and confusing to us why the sororities on the receiving end of the "rules" think they're being protected.

Gotta disagree with you, bolingbaker.

I'll use my campus as an example. There are 5 sororities. 4 are well-established nationals; the fifth (mine) started as a very small local sorority. The 4 older chapters are all near or over total, so that only AEPhi is typically eligible to hold COB rush. The "big four" typically have membership numbers in the 90s and 100s; AEPhi has grown from 10 women (when we first went national) to about 40.

During formal rush, a lot of women don't give AEPhi a chance because of our low numbers; they tend to set their sights on 2 or 3 of the "big four". A lot of them match, and that's great. Some of them don't match. So AEPhi invites them to informal rush, and some of them join. (That's where the aggressive recruiting comes in.) Others decide AEPhi isn't for them (or we decide they're not right for AEPhi), and they wait until the following fall to go through formal rush again. And still others decide to give up altogether on joining a sorority.

Then there are women who, by the time they get to pref, are cross-rushing AEPhi and another sorority. If both sororities could offer a bid to a given woman, she'd be very likely to go with the older, bigger house. But with the bid matching rules in place, she might match to AEPhi, join, and find she's just as happy there as she would have been in the other sorority.

If the rules weren't there, a lot of women would have joined one of the other sororities without giving AEPhi a chance, and my chapter might not be here today. As it is, the chapter is growing, and will soon be the same size as the other sororities on campus. And these women are as happy in AEPhi as they would be in a different GLO.

Just my $0.02 :)

With Respect, You May Have Proved My Point
 

I think any new sorority (or fraternity) coming on campus has a much better chance of competing with perceived 'high end' sororities than the sororities already on campus. Their reputations - and more important, their own self image - is already established. If Alpha Epsilon Phi started a new chapter with the idea in mind from the first that they wanted to compete for top standing, then you have a very good chance of doing so. On the other hand, if you go to a sorority composed of women who see themselves as members of a weak organization, it is nearly impossible to rally them to change their approach to rush. In a way it's like the difference between the English class system and the American culture. Sororities are in a way like the English: the class you inhabit is the class in which you stay. You make the best of your lot and you don't try to be someone you're not. Fraternities in a way represent the American idea: I may have come from the lower class, but with hard work and dedication I can rise to any standing that my talent and effort will allow. It's not that sororities CAN'T do this, it's that they don't. The mental frame of reference of women in sororities is the determining factor, just as it is for men in fraternities. Fraternity men tend to beleive that they have a chance to be the best on campus. Sorority women tend to believe that that are who they are, and the rules must be there for a reason.
IT MAY BE that the fraternity system is better for men, and the sorority (rules) system is better for women. Sounds basic, but there is a difference in the way men and women perceive their social surroundings.

UMGirl, I understand that chapters believe that they have a lot of problems with the SoRush program. Generally those are human errors that people blame on the program rather than actual computer errors. Sometimes the women running the computer make mistakes and release women who the chapter was supposed to keep or keep women who the chapter was supposed to release. This is especially common on campuses with large numbers of PNMs. Sometimes women are released b/c a certain sister approached the rush chair or advisors about a personal problem they have with the PNM and don't want disclosed to the whole chapter. Most Panhellenics allow each chapter one "computer error" during rush. For instance, if you release someone who you meant to keep Panhellenic will explain to that PNM at the end of the day that ABC meant to invite them but experienced a computer error and that they can rank ABC with their other groups.

Schools that do not use the quota total system use whatever system they have come up with. At Santa Clara University in California, until last year there was a set quota of 35 (I think or somewhere around there). It didn't matter how many women went through rush, each chapter could only pledge 35 women. In years when rush numbers were high that meant that a lot of women got cut from rush completely.

At IU, I believe that their quota is based on the number of open spot that a chapter house has. In other words, each chapter can only pledge as many women as they have open spots.

The reason why the quota/total system works better than these other systems is that it accommodates the highest number of women into the system and improves greek image on campus. When 50% of the women rushing get cut from rush each year it doesn't do very good things for greek image on campus.

I think it's a good question - why do we set quotas? Men don't, and yet I don't see their chapters closing for size. At my school, frats range from 10-75 men, which is a lot broader range than the sororities have. While men are dubious about joining the 10-man house, otherwise size doesn't make a difference.

I think it's true that women are more concerned about size - a 20-woman chapter on my campus panics, but a 20-man chapter doesn't. Female rushees are less likely to consider a small house than a big one. No offense, but we women seem to be more concerned about peer prestige.

But I don't buy that this is inherent to all women. A lot of women on my campus were very turned off by the notion of formal rush and wouldn't consider joining sororities based on that alone. They thought rush rules and quotas were garbage. And a lot of these would have made good members otherwise.

And as I've seen other people say here, I don't see quotas and ceilings evening things out. Lots of women will suicide rather than put down a smaller sorority on their bid card. They'd rather wait a year for a bid from a bigger chapter. I've seen girls waits two years for a bid from the chapter of their choice. It's kind of sad - I don't think I'd beg that hard for membership in a group that didn't want me more than that! So the big few three chapters on my campus get quota most years, and the other chapters get a lot less. You just can't make girls join chapters they don't want.

Hmmm... Maybe it's just that there are so few sororities at my school. It's hard to have top, middle, and bottom tier sororities if there are only 5. :)

Rushees often perceive AEPhi initially as a weak sorority simply because our numbers are low relative to the other sororities on campus - and some of them make a snap decision to drop us for that reason. But if they stick through our rush parties through pref, they see that we are just as involved on campus and in the community, just as strong academically, and have just as strong a bond of sisterhood as the other 4 sororities have - and a LOT of my chapter sisters listed AEPhi first on their pref cards.

And then there are the women who focus all their energy on some of the other 4 sororities, only to get cross-cut. Essentially, they have 3 choices: look at AEPhi, wait for next fall and hope for the best (and sophomores are rarely offered bids), or don't join a sorority. And hey, it doesn't hurt to look, right? :)

lauradav, we used the Sorush program too - it's awful. When I was a rho chi, one of my rushees got cut from a house she should have been invited back to, because she had the same name as another girl, and the sorority just provided a list of names instead of their assigned ID numbers. It worked out well though - she wound up joining that sorority :) That really falls under the category of human error, though.

laura, let me see if I have straight what you are saying. In a "pure" quota/total system, total is set after the time frame to drop out of rush has ended. Strictly by numbers: 200 girls rushing, 10 sororities, quota is 20. Period, even if every sorority is overflowing. But at IU, are you saying if ABC has only 5 spots open and XYZ has 30 spots open, the amount they can take is different, even in formal rush?

Guys - y'all can figure out all those baseball statistics you should be able to get this. ;) Seriously, the quota/total system does work ON PAPER. It is possible to give every woman a bid, whether it is a bid to a group she wants is another story. If we were in a perfect world, all the sororities would be even and this system would be wonderful, but of course we have things like prestige, etc etc enter into it. It works pretty much the way it's supposed to at smaller schools with smaller systems. The smaller groups at my campus usually benefited from q/t.

If your group is smaller, you HAVE to COB - you HAVE to have open bid parties all year - you HAVE to rush 24/7/365. Yes, it is kind of a pain when you see the larger groups get quota and then forget about it for the rest of the year, but if you are COBing you also have the advantage of getting a lot of women who may have never gone Greek otherwise.

I come from a 5-chapter campus too. There are three sororities about at ceiling (50 gals), one in the 30s, and a smaller one. These sororities have held the same "ranks" since 1995 when I rushed. I'll grant that one of these smaller chapters is hurt by not having a house. The other smallish chapter is a local, which greatly appeals to some girls but not to others.

For the last formal rush, quota was 8. Two houses got 8, the other big one got 6, and the other two got 0 and 1.

But I think there is something going badly wrong with rush on our campus, and I don't know that I want to attribute it to the quota system. In the last rush, 120 girls signed up, and only 60 showed up for the first day of rush. Numbers dropped even further from there - as I said, quota was 8.

I don't know if I think quotas and ceilings are good or bad. I think girls and chapters should be able to choose each other freely; on the other hand, I like that the formal rush system makes rushees consider each house. I just think that the goal of "equality" sure isn't being met by the current system. Girls might not get into the chapter of their choice - and they generally end up non-Greek rather than accepting somewhere else.

FuzzieAlum,

What do you think could be done to help the smaller chapters?

It sounds like greek life is suffering anyway in the current system at your school. There's been a lot of debate so far about whether having quota is helpful or harmful. It almost seems like if NPC didn't have quota, then the smaller chapters would suffer because PNMs wouldn't be so encouraged to look at all of their options and where they would really feel the best, instead they would want to follow the crowd. Let's face it, college is intimidating at first and all you want when you're first there is to fit in somewhere just like high school. It's a lot easier to want the same thing everyone else wants.

A lot of people have mentioned that having quota hurts the smaller chapters, but how would you suggest helping them to grow?

I'll admit, I'm not convinced that quota isn't a good thing. My chapter consistently gets quota, so having it kind of hurts us, we could be much larger. But the smaller chapters at our school would suffer from not having quota, or at least I think so, and I don't want to see them fall apart. They may do very poorly in formal recruitment, but at least they're not wiped out by the larger chapters.

The unfortunate part of this situation is that girls that could be very happy in the greek system don't get the chance because they're number 21 out of a 20 quota system, or they never even try because they hear of how many girls don't get bids becuase they weren't matched. It's sad when 120 girls sign up for rush and only 23 get bids.

I understand that the system may not work perfectly at all schools, but what is another option?

I don't know that I have a solution that would help the smaller chapters. On the one hand, I know chapters can rebuild themselves from almost nothing - on the other hand I know this rarely happens. And I realize some of the problems that a smaller chapter has may be their own fault - or it may be external circumstances - or it may be the fault of girls who are long since graduated.

I do think that there is something wrong with the way quota is being figured in this scenario, though. If quota is 8, times 5 chapters, theoretically 40 girls could get bids. (Now I know that doesn't happen perfectly anywhere.) But here only 23 girls accepted bids! That shouldn't happen. And there wasn't much (successful) snap bidding after rush, either. I remember in the days when I was an undergrad, you could tell by the number of girls who went to pref parties that it was going to be impossible for more than a few chapters to hit quota.

Girls are leery of joining a chapter that's below-average in size, and it's a small chapter's job to make themselves a desirable option. But the fact is, it's the way of the world that the chapters doing the best get rewarded, and the small chapters have to work twice as hard just to stay in place.

That said - on my campus there was a lot of dirty rushing, an encouragement to suicide bid, and a tendency for the Greek Life advisor to buddy up to the big chapters. I don't think that kind of behavior is appropriate or good for the system as a whole.

One thing that would help: We have rush in the fall. In spring, after classes and before finals, chapters are allowed to give out bids - they can replace the graduating seniors (although not at ceiling chapters can rush at other times too). This means big chapters encourage suicide bidding or promise bids to girls they like almost as well as their first list - and those girls will hold out for bids from that big chapter rather than looking around at other options. I don't think this is a good practice.

I do think that if we as sorority women didn't make such a big deal out of, "We're supposed to be aiming for ceiling," perhaps the rushees wouldn't either. After all, the men don't worry about that sort of thing. But maybe that's pie-in-the-sky thinking on my part!

I gotta disagree. While you might not like it and some might like large chapters, you cant agrue that the point of quotas/caps/matrching yada crapa yada is to limit chapter sizes to a "managable" level. If that were the case, the larges of the NPC chapters wouldnt be nearly twice the size of the largest NIC chapters. Example: Largest fraternities at A&M 100-150 men. largest sororities at A&M 150-200 women. Of all NIC vs NPC groups, the largest chapters are NPC, and are about 30% larger on average. Th epoint of the quotas/totals is to ensure equality of process. Simple as that.

You are right except for that it is quota that is set during rush, not total. Total is the maximum number of women a chapter can have (unless they go over through formal rush) based on average sorority population. Panhellenic should review total every couple of years to make sure it is not too high or too low and to talk about the possibility of expansion.

FuzzieAlum, it sounds like your campus has bigger problems than the quota total system. Most of my campuses have about 65% or 75% retention rate b/w sing-up and pledging. As a Panhellenic you guys should really meet and talk about why these women are not showing up for rush or are dropping out. Are the chapters dropping more people than they should be? Does being unhoused make the smaller groups even less desirable? If these discussions don't lead to anything your group should consider contacting your NPC area advisor and talking to her about your concerns. If Panhellenic has the money to fund it you can even request a visit from an NPC team to review what is going on and recommend changes to improve greek participation on your campus.

Ok, this is gonna be long...
 

So first, some humor courtsey of collegehumor.com's Observational Humor

Sorority rush and Fraternity rush are completely different. Sorority rush involves visits to all the houses, and bid lists, and preferences, and complex rules about who you can and can't talk to and for how long. Fraternity rush involves nachos and college football.

Some sororities send clear messages during rush. They say, "we value you for who you are, we don't want to change you, we value your individuality, and we are all unique." And they say it with their 50 sisters all dressed in black pants, black sandals, and white baby tees.

I think its weird when everyone in a sorority dresses the same during rush as a symbol of unity. Unless they're wearing bikinis. Then it's pretty cool.

I used to stare in awe and amazment at the sorority recruitment process. Literally, stand there scratching my head, trying to understand why these women were acting the way they were. i have come to the understanding that it boils down to the differences between the sexes. (as has been stated) Men, fundamentally are more concerned with competetion, and survival of the fittest. Women on the other hand are more egalitarian by nature and want a level playing field for everyone, orgs and PNM's. For the most part, the women are quite pleased with their system, and really see no need to change their system. (Plus doing so is next to impossibe at the NPC level. YOU ever try to get 26 women to UNAMINOUSLY agree on ANYTHING? Thanks. I'll be off looking for Osama. He'll be found, tried and exicuted long befor NPC changes their recruitment practices.) I have come to the understanding that they are happy withtheir system, and it doesnt really matter what I think. they were doing it that way long befor I was greek, and will most likely be doing it that way long after my ass is dead and burried. But I do want to pose a few questions and make a few observations about their process to stimulate debate and maybe help answer some of my questions. Simply put, when a female friend asks me about going greek, I can sell her on it. When she asks me why the process is the way it is, I am dumbfounded, and cant justify it.

So let me start here with a quote: Originally posted by 33girl, "If your group is smaller, you HAVE to COB - you HAVE to have open bid parties all year - you HAVE to rush 24/7/365.
If you all care about the future of the greek system, which I know you do, this should be the attitude of everyone. Guys and girls, ya know, thats why they changed the name from rush to recruitment.

I honestly believe there should be a two or three teer system, maybe an opt-out system. I understand the necessity of some formalities in a heavily compedative system, such as LSU, A&M, etc, (with recs and stuff) but really at a school with 3 sororities, having PNM's turn in picts with apps, isnt necessary. it isnt. Do like the rest of us, get to know em, you'll remember em. Future friends and brothers/sisters shouldnt sit around memorizing facts and faces before you meet someone. thats just creepy (I knwo you do it so oyu'll have time to chat about other stuff in the limited time you have at parties, but that is just a symptom of a larger problem, and not a solution.)

Since I know my school best, We'll start there. Our IFC and PHC came to campus the same time - 1978. With four groups respectively. A year later one of the sororities folded. Rumor has something to do with their chap president dying ina car wreck or something. Its been 20 yers so the reliability of the info is suspect at best. By 1998 IFC had expended to 9 orgs, while PHC was still at 3 orgs. 20 YEARS LATER. The fraternities had grown by 3 fold, yet the women were stagnant in growth. Our PHC paid a lot of lip service to growing the greek system, looks to me like they werent holding up their end of the deal. Finally in 1999 PHC added Phi Mu. Welcome. Butit hardly seems fair that the first girls who were to join were the ones that all 3 established sororities rejected. Ya know, just 'cause someone can fillout an app and pay her fee doesnt mean she is member potential. So she is cut, but then she can be a founding mother? Lovely.

Do ya'll really neeed 108 pages of rules to tell you how to meet and make friends with someone? You have too many rules! You must turn in reciepts, cant take anything outta the rooms, turn in apps, infraction grievance procedures, recs, matching, quota, totals prefing, parties, bid cards? Its too much. Seems to me the focus needs to be put back on the PNM's and offa busting each other, 'catching others breaking the rules, and worrying that that 10th tank of helium is gonna get you in trouble because you broke PHC's spending cap. LETS PUT THE FOCUS BACK ON THE PNM'S. Plus, whats with the fact thatits virtually IMPOSSIBLE to cut a gal after formal recruitment and before initiation. We got a guy we met and know pretty well, but as a NM he turns out to be an ass hole. We cut him. I hear sorority girls bitching about their NM's and they are helpless to do anything about it because she made it to a pref party. Sorry, but I sure as hell dont wanana obligate myself to a lifetime of a bond if I honestly think soemone is a shmuck. Why should yall?

ALL OF US are facing declining numers. its a national trend. Ask the NPC or NIC. they'll tell you. (the LSU's and USC's cant keep the whole system afloat) So why make it harder to join? if anything, we should be tearing down the barriers to PNM's. At my school you gotta pay $45 for the opportunity to rush. PHC justifys that as "we pay for their lunches". If it really costs $45, then charge it as a bid card fee when the girls have mad ethe emotional committment to a group of girls. I know many girls who are intrested in greek life, but will turn and walk and when they are told they have to pay $45 just to rush as an app fee. BS. And you know it. If you dont, let me break down the numbers. All men (So I am assuming the numbers are roughly the same for women) all men (PNM's) can be cateogrized into 3 groups, always, maybe and never joiners. (as defined by the UCLA study on entering freshman they do every year) Always joiners comprise 25% of the fresman population, maybe joiners are about 50% of the pop, withthe never joiners rounding out the last 25%. The always joiners are usually legacies, or people like newbie, who have had a postive experience withthe greek system. The 50% maybe joiners are usually first generation college students and have no formed opinion on greek life. The last 25% fundamentally do not agree withthe greek system. Point is this: If we sit back and wait for people to approach us, men or women, we are only getting 25% of the population. We will be destined to failure. All of us could double the numbers in our houses and GLO's on campus if we'd get off our assses and quit expecting the PNM's to knock on our doors. Oh, wait, the incredibly rediculous encoumberances placed on women preclude you (women) from doing that on the pretense of equality. Huh. Dont come crying to me in 20 years when your numbers are inthe floor. It imazes me that the NPC directors can do enough math to do bid matching, yet cant see the number crunch facing all of us.

Its always about reciepts, apps, infraction grievance procedures, recs, matching, quota, totals prefing, parties, bid cards, etc. Every one of you gals rteading this knows you or your sisters have broken rush rules, even if accidentally or only slightly. None of us are perfect. I have broken a few myself. Why keep adding rules and regulations to curb every possible infraction, why not re-evaluate the whole system change it from a punitive system of cants, donts and will nots and instead turn it into a system of shoulds, coulds and ought to's? I mean, honestly, no one should ever cry tears of sadness over recruitment. If people are being hurt, we need to re-think.

(I helped to rebuild my chapter from 12 to 70 men, and no one capped us, gave us members or allowed us to snap bid. We just got out there and busted our ass. Now, 4 years later, were largest on campus and riding high. I know its apples and oranges, but I offer it for those who think a chapter of 20 cant compete with a chapter of 65. We did, and If I can do it, anyone can.)

NOW stop, breathe. I suspect some of you are pissed about this post. But before you hit the quote or post buttons, I ask you to ask yourself this. Are you defending the current system so vehemently because you really believe in it, and its the best way to bring PNM's into our world? Or because "its always been done that way", and some of us suffer from groupthink. All of us know there has to be a better system. I dont profess to have the answers. And I know the system wont change overnight, but I believe, fundamentally , that it HAS to change, eventually. If it doesnt, numbers will continue to decline and the overall health of the NPC will be in jeopardy. And that affects all of us.


(Please know that I wholeheartedly advocate sorority life and come from a long line of sororoity women and most of my female friends are greek. Would defend the system till the day I die, I just think there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have said my peace. Whats yours?)

lifesaver and James,
even as an outsider to the Greek system, many of you know by now, I have always wondered about the same thing and I totally agree with you in my continuing puzzlement.

Some people asked about alternatives and I would like to share my personal experiences from my system in Germany with you.

We have something like continuous open bidding - even though it is more like: a candidate comes, is interested, and applies. Usually he gets accepted and what follows is a year of pledging or "membership on trial" during and after which the guy can leave or get kicked out (actually you can get kicked out later too, but that is beside the point). That way you don't pass on anybody who is interested but you can also check him out for an extended period of time.

If it wasn't for COB the German fraternity/sorority syestem would probably be down to very few chapters in a few organizations from over 1000 chapters Germany-wide right now.

Quotas are non-existent. It is up to the chapter to make the best out of itself. If the guys suck, they deserve to die! I have experienced my chapter to nearly die - no pledges in 2 years!! - because of quarrels among the actives. Then, they pulled themselves together and now they are back in business and are in good standing! It was a cleansing process and the chapter profited from it.
One thing fraternity chapters with too many pledges did in the good old days at the beginning of the 20th century (more then 25 was considered too many): the would form a new chapter, with actives and pledges at the same university (which is possible in our system). Our experience is that the bond becomes stronger with smaller chapter numbers of up to 50-70 guys.
And nowadays, when a chapter is in danger of folding, members of other chapters are actually encouraged to transfer to that school and help out.

I hope that was interesting, looking forward to a continuing debate and more interesting comments and clarifications.
Matt

FuzzieAlum, it sounds like your campus has bigger problems than the quota total system. Most of my campuses have about 65% or 75% retention rate b/w sing-up and pledging. As a Panhellenic you guys should really meet and talk about why these women are not showing up for rush or are dropping out. Are the chapters dropping more people than they should be? Does being unhoused make the smaller groups even less desirable? If these discussions don't lead to anything your group should consider contacting your NPC area advisor and talking to her about your concerns. If Panhellenic has the money to fund it you can even request a visit from an NPC team to review what is going on and recommend changes to improve greek participation on your campus. [/B][/QUOTE]

This isn't something I really want to talk about on a message board, I hope that makes sense. I am an alum and I don't live anywhere near my university, so it makes it more difficult for me to find out what is really going on.

I can state these things for sure: Six, seven years ago, quota was regularly around 12-13 girls. Ceiling hasn't changed. The number of girls going through rush has dropped. The campus still hasn't switched to a no-frills rush, and it's not exactly a frilly campus. I wouldn't trust the Greek Life advisor as far as I could throw him, either.

I can tell you that being unhoused is a HUGE problem. When that chapter was founded, no sorority had a house. As Greek Life gave chapters houses, they were last in line because they were youngest. But as more chapters got houses, they used it as a selling point and not having a house made recruitment more difficult. Now rushees regularly say, "Oh, you don't have a house. What makes you a real sorority?" The other small chapter has the least desirable of all the sorority houses.

On the other hand, not all the problems are external to the smaller chapters, and that's not the kind of laundry I want to air in public. :(

Re: Ok, this is gonna be long...
 

I completely agree with this. My house was one of the smaller houses on campus, and although we would get quota for formal rush, we (like all Houses) had some people drop right after and in the later weeks. I joined during COB right after rush, and gaining my membership through this process has made me appreciate it a whole lot more. We would COB our little tails off and make a reasonable goal (like 5-7 girls by the end of winter semester, 10-12 for spring) and almost consistently make them. The problem was, we were trying to get numbers up so much we were rushing quantity, not quality. This is where our retention problem came from. The year after I left, the house started to rush quality, throwing quota out of their heads( a very hard thing to do) and with their new base, increased their membership because of quality members wanting to stay and rush more quality members. This in turn showed the kind of house we were: willing to work hard, and not willing to take just anyone for the sake of quota. It worked. Now the house has many quality members, and has a higher membership than in years past. Althought they are still one of the smaller chapters, it's fine. We don't have a huge house, so smaller in our case is better. The New Member classes are tightly knight, and all the classes had a good bond.
Now I'm not saying that you can't rush quality and quantity at the same time, but it is a much harder thing to do. I am also not saying that the women we obtained when rushing for quantity didn't hold the same ideals, they are all wonderful women. Some might have had lower grades or shown less enthusiasm during rush. Other houses might not look at these women, but we gave them a chance to know greek life all the same. And to those that greek life was right, they stayed and helped us grow. All you need is a bunch of good women willing to give their all to meet your goal. Above all, make your goal realistic. If it is just a huge number in the sky, you might never get there and feel worse for having not met it. If you make your goal small and reasonable, think how you will feel when you exceed it! :D
COB is just what it says: Continuous. Never stop rushing. The woman sitting in your classes are PNM, the ones you pass in the hall. How you portray yourself and your sorority does matter. We dressed up in pin attire every other Monday, and wore letters every Wed. If we were wearing letters, we didn't look like we just rolled out of bed, but we didn't have to be all beautified either. We also tried to participate in every Philanthropy event we could, and had sisters come and watch if they weren't participating for support. We would go to each other's preformances and show, and wear letters to sporting events. We would put EVERYTHING in the paper, from new officers, to NM classes, pinings, University scholarships, thanks to our philanthropy coaches, anything we could think of. Just getting people to see our name everywhere makes a difference. When you ask people whose letters you see on campus, it's the people who do all of these things. Be proud of who you are, and the organization you represent.

We can harp on total and quota and such, but it works. Allow me to provide two examples.

1) At my university, when I went through recruitment, there were 10 sororities. The two largest were at about 45 members, with total being 60. Nobody ever reached 60, so nobody worried about total. Now, if you go back to my university today, quota is only 52, and about 3 of the 10 sororities have hit total. Quota is still enforced. But the funny thing is, that one of the two that was biggest in 1993 when I rushed is now nearly defunct. And two sororities that really sucked in 1993 are now huge. How does that happen? I can't explain it, but I know that lowering total helped them pick up women that couldn't go to the larger groups, and thus ALL groups grow.

2) At the university where D Phi E just colonized, there are four sororities. Two have been there for awhile, another is about 4 years old, and we're about 5 months old. The two well established groups have about 50-55 members each. The four year old group has 65, with total being 52. By having a total on their chapters, they afforded an opportunity for another group to join the campus and be competitive. In their fifth month, our group is nearing 35 members, with more than 2 months until chartering.

Let's face it, if you're in a big group, you're not hip to quota and total and those cuts you have to make after your first round of parties to make the percentages equal. If you're smaller, you want that system, because it enables you to grow despite your smaller size. I'm in complete agreement with TriSigmaTX. Despite the competition that recruitment often generates, I want ALL sororities to succeed. And by providing an environment where this is working is what NPC is doing.

Fraternity rush at my school was a free for all. The guys had keg parties for like 2 weeks, and the fraternity who could serve the most beer basically won the recruitment competition. If that's all recruitment is about, count me out. Also, fraternity rush sells so many things...our fraternities have beer, girls, among other things at all of their recruitment parties. Nobody really shows the brotherhood aspect or the community service aspect. Could just be my campus, but I doubt it.

Anyways, a lot of this is rambling, but I'm a big proponent of quota and total. It works to keep 26 groups healthy and strong.

Now I know a lot of fraternity rush is about selling the women and social. But not all. I KNOW with a 95% certainty, that if I can get a prospect to hang out with my chapter, he'll usually sign. The sense of brotherhood is tangeable. We got to be largest by stressing academics, brotherhood and our diversity. It worked. But remember, I didnt say that the NIC recruitment was the answer. I just said I believe there has to be a way to put the emphasis back on the PNM's in sorority recruitment, and adress declining numbers. You said "I'm a big proponent of quota and total. It works to keep 26 groups healthy and strong." my question then, is this; If fraternities (NIC) use a different system, what explains the viability and success of the 67 member orgs that comprise the NIC? I am just saying NIC is healthy and strong as well. Arent you open to the discussion of another system? Not necessarily mine, but another?

Life, I am not sure how the Soroitys do it now, but both the F/S had formal rush and each individual had to put down 3 choices! If they put down less and were not called, they were out till next go around! Im not sure what cob and pnm is! Someone plesase inlighten me!

I agree with some limitation on chapters as the smaller ones will not stay! We have a old house but looking to build a new one and all of the Actives think this will build the membership! Yes it does up to a certain point!

LXA had a large Building and memership at one time and as of now there is no longer a Chapter there!

The main thing is to sell yourselves to the new recruits! That is what counts and I know My guys at Almamater are not doing that! They always have an excuse! That is why I have been back incolved for the last 4 years along with some other Alums!

Building, Name, Numbers, what counts is the people in the Organization! YOU Each have to sell yourselves! Grin a lot and sell sell sell!:)

If a house is having trouble and numbers are an issue then total and so on becomes problematic. But it does keep things fair and in the long run it is a good tool to measure each group's progress. A strong group hovers around total and usually makes quota whereas a weaker group struggles with keeping total and/or making quota.

At ECU we need a minimum number of members to keep dues down and our houses running. If we didn't have total and quota's many houses would be in money trouble. I do think total could be incesed a few memebers per year.

Also, IFC doesn't stress numbers and we have many fraternities with tons of members and some with no members. It is hard to recruit if the odds are not even and larger groups have that edge. Like the colony someone was talking about, it is hard to recruit if some houses are at 100 and yours is at 40, not to mention the more work it is to keep a smaller chapter running since the same is expected of both and you have half the members to carry it out.

Numbers are always a challenge but it is a great accomplishment when you get the hang of them.

If sororities at many Southern universities, especially the big ones, didn't have ceilings and quotas, many sororities would die pretty rapidly. In the South, many girls know (or think they know) what sororities they want before they set foot on campus and very often they're the traditional Southern sororities. Likewise, at certain large Midwestern and Western sororities there are certain other groups that hold the reins.

Y'all may have noticed this when the rushees on GC speak of what's powerful in their area and which groups they start out wanting. I think that few NPC sororities would be willing to drop quotas, etc., because everyone is vulnerable someplace in the country and can't afford to lose big numbers of chapters. I don't care how fabulous a rush XYZ puts on at certain campuses, XYZ will likely never be one of the top groups just because of local opinion.:(

thanks laura - I did mean quota at the one place I said total! Duh :p

lifesaver, I understand why you think the whole thing is so confusing. But a few thoughts - NPC originally passed the "no-frills" resolution in 1991. Yes ladies, 10 YEARS AGO. And has it been put into place on all campuses? I think we know the answer to that one. It was also supposed to emphasize that "recruitment is 365 days a year" and de-emphasize the importance of formal rush. On the whole, has that happened? Again, I think we know the answer. You can't make policies and then not do anything to enforce them. If so, why did you bother making it in the first place?

At the same time this resolution was passed, rush numbers were declining from a 10-15 year high. And that made everyone more stressed out and competitive. I don't recall EVER hearing of a rush infraction on my campus, other than the big ones like promising bids, or a Rho Chi accidentally revealing her GLO. Why? We were all doing pretty well, and wanted to stay on good terms with one another and not rock the boat. These rush infractions for confetti on a rushee's shoe....I've never heard anything so ridiculous. That's not what no-frills was supposed to be about. But everyone is worried about keeping numbers high, so you get that kind of thing happening. I'm not saying every college is like this, but if you do have people getting anal about confetti and nametags, you have a problem with Panhel unity.

The quota/total rules work if 1) the rushees really do go in with open minds and 2) the college Panhel makes rules and policies that will benefit the college, the rushees and the Greek system at large, not just their own groups. That's what Greek unity is all about.

Plus, if everyone would walk the no-frills walk, instead of just talking the talk, it would do what it was theoretically supposed to do.

I completely agree about the "no frills walk." My school is currently restructuring the system for formal recruitment. We have already moved formal rush from the fall semester to the spring semester. Currently, panhel and a committee of girls from each chapter are debating and deciding on the other rules that will be implemented. Because of all the changes, there has been a lot of talk outside the meetings about what should be done. We were talking about older rules, and I thought this one was particularly enjoyable:
We weren't allowed to distribute gifts at Greek Carnival during freshman orientation week that exceeded the cost of $0.25.
I don't remember who told me, but an alum of another chapter mentioned that when she was in undergrad, panhel actually had a rule that limited the diameter of cookies that the sororities could hand out!

These are silly, and petty, but they're for a reason. I don't entirely agree with them, but they make sure that a large sorority with lots of money, or one with better alumni support doesn't have an unfair advantage. Unfortunately, girls can be petty and childish at times! (don't gloat guys, you can be too!)

It would be nice to move beyond all of this and have a more practical system that is still fair. I think the best we can hope for are small changes each year until we achieve what was originally intended with Panhel.

33girl, I didn't know about that "no frills" resolution. But how effective can it be with chapters above total, they can't give out bids so they have no need to rush very seriously. Perhaps it's really intended to help the chapters below total.


Tom earp, cob is continuous open bidding and pnm is a potential new member :)

I would like to reiterate that on MY campus, the fraternities promote social and women. I've seen it like that on other campuses. In no way would I imply that this is everywhere.

My post was intended to show that even if you don't like the NPC system of recruitment, it IS better than the way fraternities do it. As LexiKD said, and it's this way in a lot of places, fraternities on campuses have such a large difference in their amount of members. Some have 10 members, while another group has 80. If you were a guy going through recruitment, you'd more than likely pick the 80 guy group. It's human nature I would think.

And someone state that you have 67 strong NIC organizations. Do you think that all 67 of those are strong? I mean, you've got like 10 or 15 really big guns in NIC, but aside from those, you've got some VERY small groups as well. I guess it's all relative.

Again, I know quota/total is a hard thing to advocate, but I really do think it works if implemented properly.