By birth or by choice?
 

Hey everyone,
Just thought I'd drop this down and see what everyone's thoughts were. Do you think homosexuality is something that a person is born with, or do you think it's a choice that a person makes? I know there are lots of sides to this issue, just thought I'd open it up to discussion and see what people thought.

Collin

I think it could be either....

It comes down to nature v nuture.

Someone not "born" homosexual could become that way due to influences in their childhood that adversely affect their view of the opposite sex in a sexual way...or same sex abuse could be said to be a cause of homosexual behavior later in life as well.

But I absolutely believe it does not have to occur as a result of outside influences.

You are attracted to who you're attracted to, and we can't help who we are attracted to.

I'm just rambling...

I disagree - in fact, according to present evidence about genetics and gene expression, you might just be on the right track.

It turns out, there is no real "nature v. nurture" argument for many things. It's actually "nature WITH nurture" . . . look at genes for alcoholism. These don't mean that the person with said genes is alcoholic from birth - in fact far from it. It means that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism - not all alcoholics have the gene, and not all with the gene will become alcoholic.

Environmental "triggers" are needed to set off genetic predispositions.

Now, sexual preference is a far different issue, most likely - there's no direct link found between sexual preference and any sort of genetic predisposition.

However, I still personally feel that, since attraction is an unexplainable phenomenon that has a definite physical component as well as a mental one, you can most likely draw parallels between it and other such 'inherited' traits - ie people don't choose to be gay, that's who they are, and this is based on many factors, some of which may have varying degrees of environmental influence. I realize this is extremely vague, but with complex topics such as this it pays to follow Occum's Razor when creating theses.

Anyway - When you look at it from this standpoint, not only does it eliminate any sort of possibility of bias against people based on sexual preference, it also removes any sort of 'mystique' or misunderstanding behind homosexuality - it exists, and it is simply a trait people possess just like any other, not something that defines a person.

Have to say so far I'm with both of you all on this pont.

I also think there are situations where there is just plain sexual confusion. A young person, who feels disassociated with their peer group, could reasonably turn to homosexual activity in an attempt to "find him/herself". Later, that same individual may realize that stage of experimentation was not fulfilling and return to heterosexual relationships-or not. I don't know, but it seems this more likely falls under sexual preference like KSig RC is refering to. IF the genetic link is there, in that individual, couldn't this experimentation trigger (awaken)it?
BIAS-
We have an established homosexual community in our area. There hasn't been a public hate crime towards homosexuals since I've lived here. In the High Schools, no anti-gay activities have been reported. It seems most students are very accepting of this difference. These kids have openly shown their preference. On the other hand, there are a few kids, that I am aware of, who are afraid to "come out". They have presented themselves as "straight" all these years, and are afraid they would suffer due to their concealment of this fact.

I think that most homosexuals are just born with it. I see what people are saying about how the environment that a person grows up in can influence it, but there are so many homosexuals who were brought up in perfectly "normal" environments, and there are also many heterosexuals who were raised by homosexuals. Now, bisexuality I tend to think is a choice...

So, first off, a homosexual influence or environment isn't a "normal" environment? That is kind of what I'm getting from your last few sentences.

Second, how is it that bisexuality can be a choice, but homosexuality can not?
Yes, a person may be homosexual, or they may be straight, BUT there have been many and I mean many instances where a homosexual person has gone straight and where straight people have gone homosexual. I believe it all to be in choice. That and nothing more. As for it not being influenced upon us in our childhood, I don't agree with that argument either. In all, it's all in choice. Most of your friends might drink, you might not, because that's a choice you make. Yet, you may have also grown up in a house full of drinkers, alcoholics, etc. Same with smoking, almost everyone in my family smokes, I do not, because it's a choice that I made, which came an environment full of smokers.

Further, until there is proof or statistical data supporting the argurment that homosexuality is a genetical matter, I will disagree with it, and view it as I view it now, an opinionated theory.

It's the world we live in today, many people take on certain things, and may make choices that aren't shown in their near environment. I don't have to be the one to tell you that, look at society today, almost everything we do is influenced by society in some way or somehow, but just because something is present in your/their physical or "normal" environment, doesn't mean you or that person can still make a choice about something.

Now, no, I am not homophobic or anything like that. I view homosexual people as any other person and respect them just as much. These are merely my thoughts and opinions on the argument of homosexuality being based on birth or choice.

d

I think some people are born homosexual, and others choose that lifestyle. I have several gay friends and, although most of them can say that they always felt "different" from other kids growing up, there are a couple who I know for a fact were "straight" for several years and chose to live a homosexual lifestyle later on. These people got into it for experimentation reasons or were just looking for a way to stand out.

So, to answer the question, I think it depends on the person.

I think it depends. Homosexuality is seen in almost all animal species in the wild - so obviously it's not as "unnatural" as some would claim. As for what causes it, who knows - hormonal influences in the womb, genetics, environment, all of the above - we may never know. And frankly, I don't think it matters. Whether it's a "choice" or not should not factor into how we treat people - it's not hurting anyone, and I dare say that it's good - in that love, whether it's between a man and a woman, two women, or two men, is beautiful, and something to be celebrated. The world could use more love, no matter who it's between.

Anne and Ellen are no longer an item. As a matter of fact, I read that Anne got engaged to her cameraman in May of 2001.

Anne Heche married a man and is pregnant.

I have my opinions on the subject, which for the most part, have been repeated here. I do have a couple of questions I'd like to pose in order to further the debate.

1) If it was a choice, who would choose to be that different? Gays get unholy grief in our society. So whats behind Door #3.

2) I can only speak of the people I know and in my circle of friends, but I dont know anyone who is gregarious enough to do it for attention. Would you do that with you mouth for attention? I wouldnt. Maybe there are those people out there tho.

3) Since I am assuming that none of us are speaking from first hand experience, and none of us are involved in scientific research it is all theoretical to us.

I just find the whole sexual orientation thing so gossipy. Its always about suspecting soemone. We have a brother in the undergrad chapter who many suspect and weither he is or isnt, I feel so bad because some people are always talking about it behind his back (a few brothers, and others on campus). Can you imagine his life? What he has to go through on a daily basis. I dotnt think I could handle that.

One statistic tho: As I learned in my Human Sexuality class. If there is a gay child (15-50 years old) in a family, there is a 60% chance that another same-gender child in the same family will be gay as well. I cite the specific study if need be. I just forgot to bring my Human Sexuality Text to work today. Sorry.

(I didnt read shultzz' post it was removed befor I read it, so I cant comment on it, BUT I am proud of all of us on here that everyone seems to be accepting of diversity. Thats a good thing.)

Last night Jack from Will and Grace:

"I've seen lesbian ducks before. They had really short feathers on the top of their heads, and really long ones on the back."

I think maybe they were born homosexual. I do know a few gay people (I do live in SAn Francisco!), and some knew they were gay ever since they were little. I also agree with Lifesaver - who would choose to live such a life of grief and discrimination, no matter where you turn? Even thuogh SF is such a liberal and accepting city (and CA in general), homosexuals still get discriminated against here. Most people here are great about these things. But some people are very ignorant, tho.

I guess the point is whether it is nature or nurture, we should treat everyone with respect, dignity, and decency.

Well said!

I agree.

I think that your preference is by birth, hormones, nature, however you want to say it. Whether you act on the preference is by choice.

Very few people are 100% hetero- or homosexual - most people have attractions or urges at one time or another, the only difference is how strong it is. That's why there are men who come out as gay late in life after being married & having kids. They might have been hetero *enough* to do that, but not for all time. And some gay people could probably never get through a hetero sex act.

On the nature/nurture debate, there was a famous sexual reassignment case that was reported on in Rolling Stone.

http://www.infocirc.org/rollston.htm

Take it from me...
 

This will be a debate until the end of time, and is actually pointless as it only raises other issues that cause arguments. As a gay female, I can't tell you that I was born gay, but I also can't tell you that I wasn't. Do you remember liking boys when you were an infant? As for me, I had my first crush in the third grade, and it just so happened to be a girl.

So, I don't think there will be an answer to this question for a very long time.:)

I think it is purely a choice. I DO agree with everyone who said that personalities are formed due to nature and nuture. However, I don't think that homsexuality is a personality trait.

It is not considered HOMOSEXUAL behavior until it is actually ACTED upon.

I agree with 33girl.

Many people have fantasies involving the same sex. Some people act on them. That is when it crosses the line.


*Spraying on flame-retardant*

I don't believe in bisexuality, btw (PARTICULARLY in men). Either you are or you are not.

I think I'm repeating myself in lots of threads about things like this.

What I've seen here is that most here are choosing a nature vs nurture type approach..

I would venture to say that it is not one or the other.. but both.

Everyone is born with certain genes that will ultimately predispose them to be a certain way.

I'm not convinced and personally don't believe that there is ONE gene that contributes to sexual orientation.

However, I think that there can be inherited traits that lead a person to choose a certain lifestyle -- or be predisposed to it.

At any rate, people have free will and can ultimately choose whichever path they want to.

So my vote goes for not #1 or #2, but both!

Chasing Amy
 

i think some guy named Kevin Smith has something to do with writing a movie called 'Chasing Amy'

On the swings, Ben Affleck's character asked why Renee Zellweger's (Amy) was with him, if she was a lesbian. I think she said something like, she came to it of her own terms, not by society's. anyway, she said "because people are people," or something to that effect. that seems pretty honest.

Joey Lauren Adams played the lesbian in Chasing Amy.

Anyway, I think that you are born with a sexual preference. You like men, women, or both. I don't think people just wake up and say "hey, I'm gonna be gay/straight/bisexual today." I just don't think it works that way. Again, I think you are born with a preference...whether or not you express it is your choice. (I think this is why so many people are in the "closet", they choose not to express their true feelings.)

I have an aunt who is gay and we all knew it for years...she didn't "come out" until she was in her mid-30s. People need to get over all the stereotypes and be happy that their friends and loved ones have found someone to love in this crazy world!

I believe it's both. You see many cases where it's just the way a person grows up that causes them to be attracted to the same sex.
But, I believe more so in nature just from what I've seen in my own family.
My grandmother had seven children ( :eek: ) including my father. His oldest brother had always felt since he was little that something was different. In school, he was teased. He married a woman and was unhappy. They had two children. His wife divorced him when she found out he was having an affair....with a man. Now, he couldn't be happier. He is with his lifelong partner. I just think nature because he was the only one out of seven children that was a homosexual. I think that if it was nature that his brothers and sisters may have tendencies. Also, my cousins grew up with my uncle and his partner. You'd think that this environment would cause them to become homosexual. They're both straight with one happily married and the other is engaged.

I agree.

Personally, I don't think it's about how a child is nurtured. This might sound like nonsense, but I don't think it's the way one is born and I don't think it's a "choice." I think it's just something inside of a person that develops.

beating a dead horse again are we? i dont think it even really matters how or why that person came to be gay. no one questions me and why i am heterosexual. but, i will be willing to answer your questions if you do ask why i like boys, i mean after all it is a fascinating subject....:rolleyes:

ok, why do you like boys?

By choice.....

No one is born gay. Although we are born into this world with the potential to commit sin (sinful nature), I do not believe that we are born gay in the same connotations as someone being born with blue eyes (genetics) Therefore someone chooses to live this lifestyle (Homosexuality is a sin just like premarital sex, murder, adultry, etc. that someone choses to do)

If someone was born a homosexual, that would mean the people were born to be a murderer, an adulterer, or a thief. How ridiculous does that sound?

Studies show that it is genitic. Even gay people who have children and raise them, when mostly the child sees only gay people. the child grows up straight. Its just who you are. If you are atracted to same sex you are atracted to same sex. If you like to be handcuffed you like to be handcuffed. There is no switching. You can deny it and be unhappy, but you will still long for it.

I believe we all have a mixture of heterosexuality and homosexuality in ourselves. Some more that others. What matters is which we act on.

I have to agree with Honeykiss... I simply can't believe that God would create someone with the intent to be sinful.

the only two gay people I've known (and I know that's a small number to make a gigantic generalization from) have both said that they chose that lifestyle for themselves in high school/ early college. One said he did it to be different, and the other said he did it because he had trouble getting girls to date him.

But in no way do I take those two experiences to speak for the entire gay population!

In Vancouver we have a huge gay community I have a few friends who are homosexual. Talking to them, most of them didn't come out until their late teens or early 20's, but it was something that was there for most of their life. I believe it is a bit of both, however I mostly believe that you are born with heterosexual or homosexual tendancies, but I also believe that it depends on your surrounding environment. For instance in if you lived in Canada you would feel more comfortable about being open about your homosexuality. In Canada gays are protected by the Charter of Rights of Freedom and are not allowed to be discriminated against (of course there are still people out there are closed minded towards same sex couples). And a big thing happened today in Ontario: the provinicial government ruled in favour of same sex marriages, which they are saying will most likely set a precedent across the country.

I believe it's
 

...by BIRTH

So then the question can be asked....

When did you choose to be straight?

Is then heterosexuality a personality trait?

stunt cock!
 

my bad, true that.

I happen to be straight, but have a good amount of homosexual friends and have learned about many studies on sexuality in general. Based on what I've experienced and learned, it's definitely genetic trait. In some species, the appearance of homosexual animals will be affected by population. For example, it was found in hamsters that when overpopulation occured(i.e. more hamsters than the amount of available food/space, etc), the number of homosexual animals within that community of hamsters increased. There are species of monkeys in which the females have evolved over time to have sex with eachother as well as with males. This allows them to form better social relationships with eachother and dominate the males. And there are other examples, but I won't write a book right now. My point is that homosexuality is a natural occurance in life, and as with all of the other individual human traits and tendencies, serves a purpose within the human race. There's a reason that we evovled this way and it has nothing to do with sin. (BTW, remember that although the bible was inspired by God, it was written by human beings, who are fallible, and for many years before the first copy, it was recorded orally, not to mention the many revisions it has gone through from different languages and versions...even if you could find the "true" bible, it is very unlikely to be the literal word of God, which is why I don't buy the whole immoral argument of homosexuality...but I digress) So that answers the question of the thread, but I agree with everyone who says, who cares? A person is a person is a person. The end.:D

O.K., so then I have another question along those lines- Does having a same-sex encounter make a person homosexual? I mean, say a guy is locked up in prison, and he's heterosexual, but things happen-either by force or by choice; does that make him gay? Not to sound silly, but seriously, I always thought that if a guy did "certain" things, then of course he's gay, but is it really so black or white?

It just reminds me of that Seinfeld episode with Jerry and George ("I'm not gay! Not that there's anything wrong with that")...:D

Being "gay" is tag that someone properly could only give to his or herself. Because they performed certain acts -- unless they decide for themselves that "gay" is what they've become than they're not:D

That is unless you think they are.

I don't think there's any hard and fast definition of what is and isn't gay. I may be wrong and there might be a list of requirments somewhere, maybe a blood test:D

cloud9 wrote-There are species of monkeys in which the females have evolved over time to have sex with eachother as well as with males. This allows them to form better social relationships with eachother and dominate the males.

I had no idea about this! This would seem to indicate that monkeys, like humans, engage in sex for pleasure. I always felt for animals it was just nature's means of keeping the species alive. Hamsters on top of it. Now I have all kinds of things I'm wondering about....:confused:.... Guess the line between animals and humans gets thinner every day

I think this in an interesting topic, although agree that the important thing is that people are accepted for who they are.

I don't know if sexuality is nurture or nature or both. I do know that I'm heterosexual, and I don't ever remember coming to that decision. It's just what I am. So I can believe it when homosexual people say the same.

One of my friends who happens to be gay also has an openly gay brother (there are 3 boys & 2 girls in the family). One of the sisters he thinks may be gay, but not out yet. His mother & father were divorced when he was younger. But for several years his mother has been living with a female friend, and all of the kids are positive that they are lesbians. So that's a good argument for nature. But this particular friend believes being gay is a choice. How he came to that choice I never asked, because it doesn't really matter, IMO.

On the other hand, I have a friend who came out his freshman year of college & is adament that it is something you're born with. He had a mad crush on a girl only months before his big announcement, so I don't know if that was a cover or what.?

Then there's my friend who, while he fits the "gay stereotype" well, was straight all through high school & into college. Then he "realized he was gay" and got involved with a guy for a couple months. But he's from a super-religious background, and while home one weekend spoke to his religious leaders about it. (He was having major internal conflict about it). These folks "delivered him from homosexuality" & he's been straight ever since. (Which I personally think is kind of weird & scary, but I'll support him gay or straight). I interpreted his few months being gay as his simply experimenting with his identity, and ultimately deciding/realizing that regardless of what other people may think, he is straight.

I could go on, but my point is that even my personal experiences have shown me that it can be either choice or nature... it does depend on the person. I think the studies with animals are good indicators that it can and does occur naturally.

I come from a rather religious backgroud. My parents are rather horrified by the idea of gay people, and generally avoid them in work or other situations. (Now, they would NEVER be mean, rude, etc. to them, they just like to pretend they don't exist. :rolleyes: ). So, they have no idea that my gay friends are gay. They're just my friends, as they should be.

Incidentally, about a week or two ago was the annual Pride Parade here in Columbus. I happen to work downtown, and got to see the festivities. There were people, gay/lesbian/bi/straight out supporting the gay community. Everyone was having a good time. What horrified me, however, were the "chrisitan" people protesting. They weren't just out there handing out flyers and inviting people to church. Oh, no. :mad: They had giant hate banners... the more memorable reading "Got Aids?" & the like. A few of them had megaphones and were screaming awful hate messages at the crowd, calling people derogatory names, saying that AIDS was God's cure for gays, etc. :eek: Most of the crowd ignored them completely, a few made fun of them. No one seemed to take anything seriously. But it was just awful to see that kind of obvious hate & misunderstanding coming from people who claim to be Christians, meaning "like Christ". 'Cause I always took Christ's important messages as "love thy neighbor", etc.

For those of you who do believe that it is a sin, I can respect that as your opinion. I won't try to change it. My opinion is that each individual person knows themself better than anyone else can. What they do is between themselves & God.

MAybe we (human race) are like the hamsters because our population is sooo huge and growing......... ;)