Hazing Oversensitivity
 

Yeah, somethings are clear cut hazing like forcing a pledge to chug alcohol, but c'mon some of the things I've seen people talk about are ridiculus. Some people consider calling a pledge a "pledge" hazing. It makes me wonder if having to go through an initiation cermony would be considered hazing if a pedge didn't want to. A lot of you people need to lighten up.

Everybody please post your thoughts.

You tell them! :)

Re: Hazing Oversensitivity
 

You are talking to fellow greeks. If anyone was to support what you are saying it would be us. No need to nag and point fingers at us.

Re: Re: Hazing Oversensitivity
 

Of course you're joking, right? I mean, any nagging and pointing of fingers, in EITHER direction, must START squarely with greeks - we're the ones 'under the gun' as it were, right?

And also - your premise is incorrect. Support is needed from greeks and non-greeks alike, unlike what you state. It doesn't matter if IFC and Pan-Hel don't think an action is hazing, if the president of the university does. They make the decisions, ultimately.

If TylerPKT feels that the hazing definitions are unclear and can be unfairly slanted to include non-harmful actions, then allow him to try to get feedback on this - that could be the start of positive change, you never know. I think, by taking a quick look around this forum, you can see very well that he's not quite preaching to the choir.

my biggest concern with hazing is how broadly it is defined. it seems unfair to everyone involved that "a condition of membership" is the defintion of hazing. everything we do is a condition of membership. i think the real shame is that by grouping the petty acts with the serious hazing offences, we trivialize the really bad stuff. no matter how much we preach about non-hazing across the board, we all know there is a difference between chugging and forced calisthenics vs. wearing a pledge pin and doing a favor.
there seems like there should be a statement about the candidates' well-being; and serious physical and mental well-being, not the politically correct garbage the schools feed us about people not getting their feelings hurt.
i am completely against hazing, but i feel that cake pledging is unfair to the candidates because we are not preparing them for the challenges and prejudices they will face when they become initiated. we used to have a saying at my chapter, "the real hazing starts when you become a brother,"

teke4life--

What kind of favors do you have new members do for you?? If you're asking them to run to the store to get you a soda or to McDonalds to get you dinner, that's hazing, and it's really unnecessary. That kind of hazing, IMHO, is just pointless. Teach your new members how: (from the TKE Creed)

To Believe in the life based upon integrity, justice, sincerity, patience, moderation, culture, and challenge in order to serve as a responsible, mature member of society;

To Believe in the cardinal principles of Love, Charity, and Esteem and to use them to guide my life;

as was meant by your founders. I'm not trying to say your chapter hazes, but I just have to believe that your founders didn't intend to have new members learn fraternity life through fetching a soda for a brother.

I'm new to these boards but have been in a sorority for a couple years and this hazing sensitivity has bothered me also. We're not allowed to buy are "pledges" oh i mean new members paddles from their big sisters. Many of the older members have them "to sarah... we love you... from your big jenny" and so on and i think theyr'e adorable. But mine just have my name on it... nothing sentimental... i think it's rather ridiculous.

Last year we sold candy to raise money for our pledge dance... i mean new member dance (if we're being pc about it) and some girls didn't want to sell and nationals probably called it hazing. Geez... i thought! We're not allowed to raise money like that anymore

I wasn't afraid of hazing until i joined a sorority and realized i was not afraid of hazing... but of being accused of hazing. Way oversensitive!

Now THIS is the best point I've heard raised so far - how can one have a solid brotherhood(/sisterhood) development program when the fear is less of developing bad brothers than of being accused of hazing (often a capital crime in the eyes of many (inter)national offices)?

I feel this to be a major downfall of the hazing policies across the board - we set ourselves up to fail rather than to succeed.

I do think that the people who are the judge/juries/jailers on the whole hazing deal are waaayyy too sensitive. It's to the point where you cannot get into a verbal altercation over personal issues with a pledge or else it's considered "verbal harrassment/psychic trauma/blah blah blah." Pledges, excuse me, new members, who don't want to go to pledge meetings cry "Well, it's interferring with our academics!" Guess what? That's hazing!
Most of these hazing laws etc.... are a great thing! I don't want to be forced to drink, have sleepless nights, be humiliated! However, I think that because they are being so general with the definitions of hazing, the pledges are the ones that rule the house, not the actives.

I don't understand "ruling the house". Isn't everyone equal?

I doubt that there is anyone on this board who isn't concerned about the liberal definitions of hazing. I don't think any of us like it -- including those of us who equate real hazing with stupidity.

But that's the way it is. And it's the law in every state. And it's the rule in every Greek Letter Organization.

So, until someone, or some organization, or some legislature or whatever changes it, we live with it. And we abide by it.

Or we lose our charters.

Which part of that is so hard to understand?

Anytime Legislation is envolved, we are all in real trouble:mad:

Maiming and death are a real problem to all of us!:)

As a I stated in a previous thread way back when, I was there for a 2 day iniation, we had thet many guys, at the end one of the new Brothers started chugging a bottle of Amaretto. I put a stop to that real quick. It was his decision but could have led to disastours terms!

I traded paddle swats with a member of a Fraternity because he thougt it was neat! BS, he learned that from his Fraternity, and I tried to show him how stupid it was! Boy was my ass sore, but I won!!!! What a victory:(

At the time I was an independent! Stupid on both of our parts!:)

I had little respect for him after that!:mad:

I think it's less misunderstanding, and more distrust of the liberal application of hazing laws. Few will stand up, even in a fairly anonymous forum, and actively promote hazing, whether as a development tool or as anything else other than a quick way to lose a charter. However, as seen here, more than a couple actively worry that things that aren't hazing, but can be misconstrued or stretched to possibly fall under one unclear sentence of hazing law, can lead to unwanted and unneeded trouble for a chapter. I think everyone can name at least one sob story of a chapter that mishandled affairs, and was rung up for a relatively minor offense that had no negative effects on the actual pledges in question.

We all (should) try to walk the straight and narrow path - it's lunacy to do otherwise. However, there is a point of diminishing returns, even for legislative and other such policy - and I think that's the real deal as far as greek concern, that we've reached a point where we worry more about avoiding any sort of trouble than in what the actual right and wrong of the situation is.

I think all Moxie is trying to say is, if a couple pledges don't want to do this or that, then it can prevent the sorority from doing something that would be good for the overall membership. They discontinue the activity for fear of the pledges crying "hazing." AO Cutie Pi's candy sale was a good example. No, the majority of pledges are not like this, but there are some people who are just butt-heads and on power trips.

My fave story (and this is 100% true) is of the girl who told our Greek advisor that being forced to go to the campus-wide new member hazing seminar...was hazing. And if you use the most stringent definition, she was right...it was something initiated members didn't have to do, and it was required to be initiated. That's the kind of ridiculousness that happens.

I would go on, but KSig RC took the words right out of my mouth, as Meat Loaf says. ;)

I will be first to say that I do not condone hazing in ANY form. I probably have a more stringent view on it than most here. My chapter was the only non-hazing chapter on my campus. It was truly sad to see the ridiculous behavior that some people went through to get into their groups. But that was their choice.

I am not a jury/judge or jailer, but I've had more than one chapter in my region brought up on hazing allegations. One chapter was reported for hazing because the Greek Advisor said that the NMs were forced to wear yellow scrunches on their wrists during pledging. All NMs got yellow scrunches from their big sisters. Sisters wore them all the time as well. Honestly, I laughed at the allegation, and we didn't do anything to this chapter, because the allegations were silly.

On the other hand, I had a chapter brought up on a whole host of charges, from paddling to drinking. And the new members were told that if they really wanted to be sisters, they'd lie for the sisters. This is, in my opinion, ridiculous. There were things alleged that many would say is nothing, but the point is that these NMs were forced to feel that they wouldn't be part of an organization if they answered the questions we asked.

I say all of this because I think it's important that people know where I come from. If someone wants to go through hell to become part of an organization, that's their prerogative. Point is that it's against the policies of all of our organizations, and if you get caught hazing, then you do the penalty.

As for the fundraiser problem that 33girl mentions, I know that as part of our new member program, the new members plan and implement a fundraiser for our philanthropy, and it's not considered hazing.

One semester a pledge got very messy, sloppy, passing out drunk at a fraternity party. I was not only embarrassing, but potentially dangerous. This was her choice, not something we forced, coerced, condoned, or encouraged. When I saw how drunk she was, I wanted her to return to the dorm. She was too drunk to go alone so we all left to take her home. The next day our Resident Director, who was a fraternity alumnus, approached me and asked why my sorority was thrown out of that party. I assured him that we weren't thrown out and had left. He wanted to know what had happened because the higher ups in residential life had heard and wanted some answers. They wanted to launch some kind of investigation into the episode because a pledge got loaded and embarrassed herself and all of us. Luckily, there was no investigation and it blew over, but I know that they believed hazing was going on. We made a decision to have a dry pledge period instead. That pretty much eliminated the problem. If she had behaved that way a week earlier, she would have been just another drunk girl, but since she had been inducted as a pledge, it could have been construed as hazing.

To Physically beat, maim or do mental harm to IS WRONG!

BUT, to enter them into the Brother/sisterhood by Initiation is Hazing during Ritual is also Wrong! We all have certain preciepts by which each of us have our Ritual meanings to be taught! I will never forget the Ritual that I went through. It is a lot different do day to be Pol. Corect from what I have seen lately!

I cannot say right or wrong.

I have Friends who are members of other Fraternity's who have had Problems with hazing and we talk about it as GreekDom Members!

Hell we are all in the same ark as once it goes down, we are all Fu$&*#!:eek:

Exactly. Thanks, 33 :D

Its been a while since I have been on here, but many of you may remember me as a staunch supporter of "hazing with a purpose."

AO Cutie Pi, did I here that right? A fund raiser is now hazing?
KSig RC, I think we have been down this road before. Any chapter that puts its fear of being acused of hazing ahead of its duty to train/mold the new Brothers is, in my view, doing a disservice to itself and the entire Greek community. My "Brotherhood" can only survive if the Brothers are loyal to a fault and have proven to be so. I have been an Alumni for over ten years now (Why does it seem that college freshmen are getting younger? Do they graduate high school in 9th grade now?). When I do go back, I know walking in the door who these brothers are, even though I may have never met some of them. You cannot re-create or duplicate that kind of "Brotherhood" by any other means.
MoxieGrrl, you don't want to have sleepless nights and be humiliated? Sleepless nights have a purpose. Have you ever been up for 2 days at a time simply for someone else's benefit. Would you? Humiliated? There is nothing you could do to me or that I could do in front of my Brothers that would humiliate me. Now, you may ask how did it get that way? I can assure you that it was not because I was not hazed. It is a byproduct of it. Nudity and "sex acts" are a great equalizer to bringing down the walls of humility. (I am not going into details here and my statement does not imply anything homosexual, so don't ask.)
shadokat, you are kidding right? Pledges equal in a house? See above. How can or could you possibly create anything special like that?
DeltAlum, sodomy is illegal in many states. Do you abide by that law also? So is a speed limit. And Stop signs require a "Full Stop"............................................. ..
33girl, If our pledges do not want to do anything, the door is always open. One way, of course.

My point is that there are chapters out there that do not bend over to the politically correct. You must be very careful and deliberate with decisions. The payoff for me is the absolute best Brotherhood on earth. That does not come easy. It does not come without a price and a risk. However, the reward is well worth it.

Be careful out there. Many politically correct do gooders would love to see the remaining old school houses come down.

Semper Fi.

Not requiring your pledges to do "nudity" or "sexual acts" is not "being politically correct"! Give me a break!

The point is, MOST of us (apparently not all) know hazing from not-hazing. On my campus there was one sorority that hazed their new members, and we all knew which one it was. And they had the lowest retention rate for new members of any sorority on campus. Gee, you can see how hazing really benefitted them - and in fact they have recently stopped.

I think the term "pledge" was replaced with "new member" not because there is something intrinsically wrong with the term but because the general public had such a bad image of "pledging." Paddling, forcing people to get drunk, line-ups ... no matter whether it was fair or not, it was a term to put behind us if we wanted to rehabilitate our image. Of course, the image won't go away if we haze our "new members," either. That's why more and more chapters DON'T. The general public is slow to pick up on this, and that's why we have to watch out - some of them are looking for anything, even yellow scrunchies, and if they think it's hazing, they'll use it as an excuse to trash us.

And, no, pledges aren't equal in the sense that they can't vote on many chapter issues, and they don't know the ritual, but they are our equal human beings who we have accepted as brothers or sisters. Personally, I wouldn't join an organization that didn't treat me with dignity. If I had been hazed, I would have turned around and walked out that door, and I wouldn't have wanted to walk back in.

Be warned, if your chapter is still hazing, it doesn't matter how "OK" you think it is, someday a pledge will complain or Nationals will discover it. And then you won't have any chance to haze anymore - and the other chapters on campus probably won't miss having you around and ruining the Greek reputation.

FuzzieAlum - you GO girl ... !! :cool:

As for N2... well .... Semper Fi this ...!

Fuzzi Alum,

Thanks. You're last comment is one that I've made over and over.

It just doesn't matter what we think is or isn't OK. It's the law. It's the rules of our Nationals that count here.

If your chapter is going to haze, it must be prepared to suffer the consequences -- which may include losing its' charter.

I personally think that there is nothing to discuss. Hazing is illegal. It is against the law, and against every policy I can think of for every GLO. (if not, why not). If you are hazing, you are not only hurting other people and yourself, you are breaking the law. You are a criminal.

Tell me again why you think it's ok to break the law? To be a criminal? Hazers, are you comfertable knowing the stigma attached to common criminals is now attached to you? I hope not.

Love you GLO for the individuality each member brings to it, not the ability to conform to what someone thinks is right. Prove your love by not hurting, not hazing, not breaking the law.

I agree. Hazing is very wrong- I'm glad that I never had an experience with it. When I was initiated in 1988, there was not a hint of it. I don't know that any of the other sororities at my school hazed except one.
My husband was also in a frat-I don't think they did horrible hazing but they did haze- sleepless nights, psychological hazing-I'm not sure. Although he was loyal in school , he doesn't want our children to be Greek. Maybe I will get the 2 girls in a sorority; but unless he sees a real change hazing & alcohol-wise, it will be no for my 2 boys. :( Of course, since he's not involved , he can't really see the changes.
I also remember not being able to get a lavaliere because my hubby didn't want to be tied to the flag pole naked & have nasty stuff poured on him. I really wanted one but didn't want to do that to him. I couldn't wear my engagement ring for a few months either, although it was usually just the lavaliere that got you the "flagpole treatment". :rolleyes:

this is the worst. i hate when greeks discriminate agianst themselves. i can't understand how a man can swear an oath and be "loyal" to his fraternity and then turn around and say its not the kind of life and experiences he wants for his sons? i am proud of the person i have become b/c of what my fraternity has taught me, and i've seen some of the most amazing and well-respected people that i know enter its bond. but i suppose hypocracy is nothing new in this world:(

I fail to see how wanting something better for your children than you yourself had is hypocrisy.

why are assuming that being independent is better than being greek?

it was ok for dad to do, but not junior. i always assumed that was the definition of hypocrisy.

I had a great Greek experience, so I would want my kids to be Greek as well. But this man didn't like his Greek experience - so HE will think being non-Greek is better.

In one breath you defend hazing - the next moment you're shown an example of how unhappy and (as you call it) disloyal hazing makes members, and you don't see the disconnect? Hazing = unhappy Greeks! The most anti-Greek people I know are not those who were GDIs but those who were hazed in college. They swear they will never let their children go Greek, and they follow up to make sure their kids don't.

Some people who were hazed end up fanatically devoted like you (and I don't mean fanatic in a bad way) and some end up miserable. Some people who aren't hazed end up dropping out or whatever, but they are almost never anti-Greek. That's one big argument against hazing right there.

And, of course, the best arguments are that it's illegal, that every IFC and NPC group has a policy against it, that every university has a policy against it, and that it gives the media something to slam us with.

Thanks Fuzzie Alum
 

Thanks Fuzzy Alum, you've eloquently said what I feel. I also had a great Greek experience with absolutely no hazing. It's not just my husband. I also would not want my boys to experience hazing of any kind and until some fraternities understand & change that, they are going to lose membership. However, some fraternities have changed & his may be one of them. But the scary thing is that some nationals have changed things, but some groups have gone "underground" and are still hazing.

Why would any idiot parent subject their children to hazing?

I don't think that a parent with a dead or damaged 18 year old is going to be saying," I'm glad my son joined XYZ fraternity". Get real.

And, you know what else? I bet I'm a far more loyal alumna and I wasn't hazed. I think that the statistics would bear that out: Hazing = unhappy greeks who fall away & aren't involved anymore. I can't believe I'm even arguing about this in 2002!!!

I totally agree. These are the same parents who smoked pot and wallowed naked at Woodstock and then have a fit when they catch their kids having a sip of wine.

If you got anything positive out of your fraternity experience, you owe it to yourself and to your fraternity to change the things that are negative. And you owe it to your children to raise them to have enough self respect not to put up with hazing or any other crap. Keep your hand in and know the deal about which chapters do what (it really isn't that hard) but don't degrade the whole system. THIS is why we have so many great possible members deciding not to join. If that's the kind of chemistry that happens in your brain when you become a parent, I think I'll stay child-free. :rolleyes:

fuzzy,

ok, lets not make assumptions. i never said i was hazed. i was merely commenting that this father was loyal to his fraternity in his undergrad, which means it couldn't have been all bad. in fact, the original post i'm referring didn't state he was hazed but that they did a lot of crazy things as brothers. i don't care what group you are in, therea re always gonna be guys who are a little crazy and guys who live by the rules, and guys who are somewhere in between. i don't understand why when people graduate and become responsible in the "real world", they throw their hands up and say, "what silliness." this dad insists on being bieased against the entire greek world, because of the life he CHOSE to lead while he was greek.

I agree fully - I think most would as well. How can you concentrate on pledge education - whether you haze like hellcats, or not at all - if every event is surrounded by a shroud of "OH MY GOD WILL WE GET IN TROUBLE?!?"

I don't think you can. Thus, I'll agree with the OP - hazing oversensitivity, whether from external or even from internal sources, can cause serious problems for us greeks.

Well, I almost didn't post becauseI'm amazed people have these opinions still. Also I was just posting an opinion of my husband's- the after posts were very uncool. It disappoints me and others- others who probably just read & don't post. Worst of all, it also disappoints non-Greek parents who are checking out fraternities. Who knows what assumptions are made by the parents about various fraternities based on what members obviously still think, not the horror stories. Incidently, I am impressed by Delt Alum and his fraternity. He represents them well. Some good values being taught there , obviously.
I disagree with Teke4life, also please don't assume my husband wasn't hazed, because he was. And a friend had his nose broken. And I guess if NOT wanting to have his own sons hazed as he was makes him " bad" or "disloyal", then whatever!! ....That is some messed-up thinking. With comments like that you actually are changing my mind as I read your posts. Maybe my husband is right-nothing has changed fraternity-wise. And if there are some bad guys in the fraternity, GET THEM OUT!!!! But my husband had a bad experience, obviously. Basically, he joins a frat at age 18. Out of 80 guys, there are maybe 20 evil guys. There were 60 great guys that he didn't want to walk away from & that we still are friends with. We are not friends with the bad ones and never were. So he stuck with it. Also, don't assume my husband was a drinker-and a hypocrite to boot. Why am I even explaining this?
Actually, "the Flag Pole Treatment" is hazing. On our campus, the guys involved could have been arrested. For instance, as a DG alumna adviser, we would never allow the collegians to do that. Nor would they want to. I was never hazed in any way. It was a wonderful experience. And, of course, that's why I'm very over-involved today!
I also disagree that most feel hazing oversensitivity is killing Greeks. If that is so, then why have many, many sororities & fraternities made rulings already? A lot of people had to decide on that. I am liable for my girls in DG-I don't want to have to explain anything bad to their parents. They feel peace of mind because they know all 13 of us( yes! 13 advisers for 52 collegians!) are watching over their babies. I would have no problem entrusting my 2 daughters to them. You wouldn't believe the red tape we go through for parties for these girls: at least 2 alumnae present, 3rd party vendor, lists of the 21 year olds with driver's licence attached,etc. But it's worth it especially if I don't get sued & some poor collegian dies. I want that for my sons, too.

Right after my daughter pledged, she was in a car wreck (they ended up in the lake for those familiar with LSU). That night, the next day, throughout the week, the actives showered her with attention, her big took off WORK to check on her. That show of love and support from girls who barely knew her was the experiece that cemented her love for her future sisters. Initiation is imminent, and she is going into their ritual with the ultimate understanding of what sisterhood means because she experienced it and on her campus, DG lives it!

JAM
 

I tried to PM you but your box is full. What happened? I have seen a lot of people, sober and in daylight, missing the curve by Theta.

After a DRY (hmmm) mixer a fraternity boy drove her and a pledge sister home in a CONVERTABLE! He just took the curve too fast on a slightly wet turn. Car flipped everyone walked away OK and he sent her a HUGE bouquet of roses. (Probably wanted to avoid
a lawsuit. Or was it pure charm...)

We are Fraternity Men . . . caps included:) lol

James,

Speak for yourself! Those of us with my "seniority" don't mind being called a boy every once in a while.

Just kidding.

Convertables are more dangerous. Why can't the kid just be a gentleman. Maybe he liked her and thought he should take a chance. Roses are not get well soon flowers. They imply romance. Unless they were white roses. Those imply death. Ooo. That would be creepy. Were the roses red or white?

Billy, I forgot to ask! All she said was they were beautiful and the fragrance filled her room. She has been very lucky since it was the third wreck within a half a year she was in. All three cars were totaled. In two she ended up in water (Bayou and lake) the third, she was in a culvert. She does NOT have a car at school since two of them were OURS! (One, a friend backed our car off a bridge without rails and flipped it. The other she was coming home from a Key Club meeting in Baton Rouge, slipped on a curve and flipped.)

As a side note, she had seen a fortune teller at Dickins on the strand in Galveston. She was told she would be in 3 really bad wrecks within a narrow time frame, but would survive. She was told this when she was 14.

Edited to say sorry this is off topic. My apologies to all.