Trusting the system when there is bad situation
 

I would like to seek some advice for my daughter who will be a PNM this fall at a mid sized school with a small but growing Greek presence on campus. She will not be a legacy at this school- at another she would have been. There are 5 NPH sororities on campus, 4 of which are strong in community service, GPA, etc. Their numbers and retention is growing steadily. Then there is a sorority which is either on warning (or possibly probation) for grades. Their GPA is quite low and plummeted in the past two semesters. The chapter is at this time half the size of the others. They did little to no philanthropy last year, do not participate in Greek events, there have been altercations (physical brawls) with these girls and others while out on the town and other behavior that may be deemed a bit over the top. We live in this college town, and these situations are commonly known.

Of course I would love to say that all they need is some strong leadership and a few good years and strong PCs to improve and get back on track. I could actually see this as a given in a bigger school; but here, I am not sure that it will or even could happen, there has already been talk of the chapter being closed. Their downward trend started several years ago and has progressed. They have never been the strongest chapter.

My daughter has committed to being 100% open minded about the process and not picking favorites, honestly she believes she could fit in with any of the other 4- yet she still has some concerns about this house. Her concerns are NOT based on the "I don't want to be in this sorority because... " mindset, they are more along the lines of, "what happens if they fold in the next year? Where would I be then?" I think this is a valid concern on her part. So the advice I seek is a hypothetical situation- what to do if this chapter shows up on my daughters pref list. Take the risk, and put them down as a choice or suicide (yikes).

As I said, this is completely hypothetical, rush is weeks away for her, and there is no telling who will be on her pref card (maybe she won't even get to the pref rounds- who knows!) Yet I would like to get some insight from some knowledgeable ladies who may have heard of this type of situation before, and maybe it will be a good discussion.

Thank you in advance.

***Please note**** I am on NO WAY saying that this chapter is closing, or implying that I think it is.

If you trust that you've raised your daughter with good judgement about people, she will be able to see that either 1) these girls are really the Hot Mess Express that everyone thinks they are or 2) the situation has been completely blown out of proportion (the fact that grades are the first thing you mention and that the alleged "altercations" are the last tells me something) and they're simply the less popular chapter. If that's who your daughter feels at home with, then that's who she feels at home with. It may be she would rather have 2 semesters as an active with women she truly loves and who will be lifelong friends, rather than the chapter that she picked just because they seemed "sturdy."

If at the end of rush week her situation is the hypothetical you've set out, and she would rather not be Greek than be in this (or any) sorority, she should NOT write their name on her bid card.

This is very hypothetical, but if she would not feel comfortable being a member of that group, then I don't think she should list it on her MRABA card. However, she should be polite, open-minded and see what happens. Your information may be more valid than the typical "tent talk" and gossip, but I'd still keep an open mind.

That being said, if the group really is on the brink of closing, that's as risky as "suiciding" on your card. It would be awful to join a group, have them close right after you initiated, and then there goes your collegiate sorority experience.

[QUOTE=33girl;2226178]If you trust that you've raised your daughter with good judgement about people, she will be able to see that either 1) these girls are really the Hot Mess Express that everyone thinks they are or 2) the situation has been completely blown out of proportion (the fact that grades are the first thing you mention and that the alleged "altercations" are the last tells me something) and they're simply the less popular chapter. If that's who your daughter feels at home with, then that's who she feels at home with. It may be she would rather have 2 semesters as an active with women she truly loves and who will be lifelong friends, rather than the chapter that she picked just because they seemed "sturdy."

If at the end of rush week her situation is the hypothetical you've set out, and she would rather not be Greek than be in this (or any) sorority, she should NOT write their name on her bid card./QUOTE]

She can list only the bids that she would take and if she doesn't get a bid, move on to other activities, or try to get a bid through COB.

She won't be guaranteed a bid at the end of recruitment, but she also won't be bound for one year to a group that she has no intention of pledging.

Here's where I'm coming from: I transferred to a chapter that had low numbers and was really struggling. We were always informally recruiting. It took a lot of time and energy...energy that really should have been spent on our studies. When I was a 5th year senior, our International President came and told the chapter that IC had voted to reorganize and all the members would be given alumnae status. That was absolutely awful. It didn't affect me "personally" -- I still had my initiating chapter and I was graduating. But, I felt so guilty about the younger women we'd just initiated and who now had no chapter...and would instead see new women wearing our letters the next fall. Many of them transferred to other schools before the fall. At Convention last year, I told the then President that I was sitting in front of her when she came and made that announcement, and we both cried. I loved my affiliate chapter and I love my sisters, but I honestly wouldn't want my daughter to have to go through this.

Thankfully, RFM means this doesn't happen so much anymore. I don't care about tiers...find your home. But I honestly have to say that I'd be equally concerned about my daughter joining a group that faced significant struggles that go beyond "tent talk" -- my first priority would be to my daughter, not the long term status of a chapter to which I had no connection. If she did join a seriously struggling chapter, I'd do everything I could to help.

I was in a WRC, and we had to constantly COB, and so on, but I still think it's hard to say what "small" is or how it affects an experience from the outside. My chapter was "small" because we had about 110 women, when total was about 145, and the biggest chapters were hitting 200.

Do I feel my experience was all that different from the big guys on my campus? Not at all. More stressful during recruitment season, probably, but still large enough that we functioned just like any other chapter. We had a two-year live-in requirement when some chapters only had one, but I liked living in the house, and it was way cheap to do so.

So, while I respect the desire not to join an "about-to-close" chapter, I think that rumors and bad GPA are a far cry from "about-to-close".

While I can appreciate your concern, there's nothing you can do about it now. She's gonna have to go through rush and see the chips fall where they may. But I would counsel her to be very panhellenic and while other girls are speaking ill of this chapter to either not participate or try to nip the negative talk. Even if she decides to SIP instead of taking the chapter she doesn't want, she should be ladylike enough to not make those who do choose to bite the bullet feel worse.

There's no good way to have this conversation because we all want the girls to be brave and take the risky chapter, but you're right. Sometimes they're better off not doing so. Without knowing what school and what chapter (and for dog's sake, don't tell us), nobody can clarify, correct or corroborate what you think to be true. Just tell her to put her best foot forward, make up her own mind (reputations can change remarkably quickly, by the way), and deal with the circumstances she's given, all while being polite and friendly with and about everyone she encounters. During rush even more than in everyday life. And you too. Good luck to both of you!

The answer to your question My daughter is concerned about what would happen to new members if something like this did happen. Would there be other options for her in this situation? is covered in the NPC Manual of Information, aka The Green Book. According to NPC rules (and I assume you mean NPC, not NPHC) none of the new members would be eligible to pledge another group until the next formal recruitment period for that campus. And the initiated members, of course, would not ever be eligible to join another NPC group.

This is a tough decision so I'll tell you what I'd tell my own daughter if she was going through recruitment right now.

1. Don't worry about it until you actually go through recruitment. You may not even end up with that chapter at Pref. Or, you may fall in love with that chapter after meeting the girls--who knows?

2. You may get to Pref and have only that chapter. In that case, I say accept the bid because I still think the benefits of being Greek outweigh the disadvantages of being in a smaller chapter. Your sorority is for a lifetime.

3. If you get to Pref and have two possibilities--the WRC and one other, rank them how you like them. If you "suicide", you have a chance of not receiving a bid at all. If you "maximize your options," you at least have your new member period to give the chapter a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong other GCers but from what I've seen, recruitements are rarely more successful the 2nd time around unless there's a grade issue.

I would want my daughter to at least try Greek life during a new member period.

A lot of great answers here! Thanks.

As I said- this is a pretty hypothetical situation. :)My daughter has assured me that she is going in with an open mind, she is not the type to let the reputation (true or not) influence her actions toward anyone so there is as much chance as she will pref that house as any other. (Statistically maybe more? Since they will have less cuts in the beginning rounds?) Hers was just the "what if... would happen-- what would happen in that situation" fear. She isn't the kind of kid who would go into a house and be rude to people just so she would be invited back- she just isn't wired that way. She also is not a "let me join the gossip"-- no time for that. She has a great "uh huh...that's great" smile and nod... and uses it often. :) This is the best tool a young woman can have.

This board is really full of wonderful information, the different views expressed are beneficial to PNMs and their parents. I appreciate that members here do not have to agree with each other, because there are always different ways look at things. Thank you all again! And I'll let you know how it works out for her!

Are all campuses using RFM now?

I do not think I stated that very well- I meant the group I was mentioning early may have to release less people than others in the beginning. Cuts are not a concern, I mean no one likes to get cut- but it is just a given in the process--not everyone will like you, want you, have room for you. :) Thanks again for your input.

No, you stated it fine. She was just reiterating the process for the benefit of lurkers and others who might be reading in.

That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.

Sidetracking, but this is actually not true. I wanted to correct this for anyone else reading.

From the most recent MOI (Green Book) ---

Women who have been pledged but not yet initiated into a chapter whose charter has been rescinded or relinquished or of a colony that has been dissolved shall be eligible to pledge another NPC fraternity immediately following the official release by the NPC fraternity. {Page 31 under Unanimous Agreements}

In other words, if you're a new member (as in, you have NOT been initiated) and your chapter closes, you are eligible to pledge another group IMMEDIATELY.

You don't have to wait a year. If XYZ closes on Monday and you're one of their NMs, you are free to attend ABCs recruitment event Tuesday night if you so choose.

Not trying to be nitpicky but I'm all about people having correct info.

There are still a decent number of campuses that have one or two NPC chapters only. In those situations, RFM just doesn't make a lot of sense.

As an example, there are 12 chapters (roughly 9%) in Gamma Phi Beta that do not use RFM, and only one of those is on a campus with more than two NPC chapters.

^^^ Is it Indiana?

No, Indiana actually does use RFM. The school I was referring to, that to the best of my knowledge does not use RFM yet has 4 NPC chapters, is Alma College. :)

I had to laugh. People always assume it's Indiana when recruitment dysfunction comes up. But no, in this case, we are not the special snowflake. :p

From the MOI that I have:

If through the primary recruitment process a potential member accepts a bid and then has her pledge broken by an NPC fraternity or breaks her pledge, then she is ineligible to be pledged to another NPC fraternity on the same campus until the beginning of the next year’s primary membership recruitment period.

That's probably a different section. It doesn't particularly mention a chapter closure. This paragraph just describes what happens if a woman de pledges or is depledged.

That's not the most current version. The 2013 MOI has two additional sections added to the Panhellenic Compact. KSUViolet quoted #12, which did not exist prior to the 2013 version.

Page 132 of the edition you quote has the same verbiage I posted.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Yes, the section you quoted is in the 2013 edition. It's on page 132, and it's on page 31. But it doesn't nullify or otherwise trump the section that KSUViolet quoted, which is, in fact, the correct and applicable section to the hypothetical question that was posed.

You quoted the MOI just fine. But you quoted the wrong section.

I think it's conflicting because one is in the UA section and the other refers to the UA section (out to the side). They need to clean it up is the point I'm trying to make - thank you so very much!

It does not appear to be conflicting -- you can view the current (2013) MOI here (see page 31, #12):

greeks.appstate.edu/filecabinet/277

(copy/paste into address bar, then open)

I have that version. That section says they are released to pledge other groups. The section I quoted says they aren't. I think that can be confusing. It should be clarified.

This is what lawyers refer to as "the exception eats the rule."

My interpretation is that #12 is the clarification. Like KSUViolet and pbear explained.

True! And I would imagine the campus PH could enforce either rule as they might want. And then let whomever feels the opposite get wiith the NPC area adviser and their own national to try to force a different outcome.

I don't see any CPC refusing to let a group of NMs repledge should their chapter close. It is a special circumstance. The UA about depledging is to prevent poaching of NMs. That has nothing to do with a closed chapter which hurts the NMs at no fault of theirs.

^^^ I think this sums it up pretty well.

I don't either - but one never knows.

Just want to say that you are special to me, Miss ISK. :D

And FWIW I think the MOI language is messy and SOMEONE needs to fix it. I volunteer. I'm good at cleaning up messes.

Exactly. As I stated in the other thread where we were talking about this (where I pretty much came to the same conclusion as Titchou did) this "primary recruitment period" stuff that seems to be relatively new in the MOI can bite me hard.

You also have to consider the possibility of a mixed locals/NPCs campus where the locals rush at the same time as NPCs. Imagine if an NPC chapter closes and the local groups dig that particular rule up. They would say (and rightly so) "well, the way this reads, we can take these girls whenever we want, but the NPCs can't." Then NPC screwed itself out of members.

For as long as I can remember, the rule has been that if a woman 1) transfers or 2) the chapter she's pledging closes before she's initiated, she's eligible to pledge elsewhere IMMEDIATELY. Even if it's in the middle of the semester, even if it's over holidays. This is really the fairest thing to do since neither of these things are the woman's fault. I really would like to know why it was changed.