Greek letters / spelling out letters
 

I was recently at a fraternity and sorority life conference (I'm an undergrad) and I noticed many of the other students with me wore philanthropy or formal or date party shirts that had the letters of another organization. For example, I saw a SigEp wearing a shirt that says "ΔΖ turtle bowl." At my school, if delta Zeta sold a shirt, they would have it spelled out "delta zeta."

I asked one of the students about this out of curiosity, if people can wear other letters. He said yeah, and an advisor walked by and joined this conversation. I explained that my school spells it out, and the advisor asked me, what's the difference? And to be honest, I didn't have an answer. She even told me there isn't even a national policy about wearing other letters! (Maybe organization based though)

Is there a difference by using your Greek letters or spelling it out? Do they both not mean the same thing? It seems silly but I've never thought about it that way. This year we changed our philanthropy shirt design by removing our Greek letters on it and spelling it out so we could sell to other students. But did we really have to? Are these just unspoken rules?

I'm curious on other opinions.

I think it's a campus (or possibly organization) culture thing. We wore shirts with other organization's letters at my school. This was generally sorority girls wearing fraternity t-shirts.

For whatever reason, it "feels" better when it's written out, rather than the symbols. It's been like that for years, but the advisor is right: there really is no difference.

In NPHC orgs, we don't typically have event shirts and really try not to appear on all-greek t-shirts unless it makes us look terrible that we haven't included ourselves.

It really comes down to the individual policy of your organization, though. If the org is silent on the matter, then local practice rules. And yes, that varies by campus.

Well, I would disagree with the advisor. Like you say, it depends on the policies and traditions of individual GLOs. For some orgs, there is a difference between the Greek letters and spelling out the letters in English. In my fraternity, only initiated brothers can wear the Greek letters; we don't even allow probationary members (pledges) to wear them. One way to think of it is that the letters spelled out simply indicate the name of the fraternity, while the Greek letters symbolize values or principles brothers have sworn to uphold. So if we're included on a tee shirt that will be worn by anyone other than brothers, the letters should be spelled out.

Then, of course, there's FIJI, which doesn't allow its letters on tee shirts to start with, much less allow non-members to wear its letters.

The advisor's "what's the difference" is just another example of why we should never assume that all GLOs do things the way our GLO does.

http://www.phigam.org/view.image?Id=1006

This policy puzzles me because a brother of FIJI asked the future Bettie Locke to wear a FIJI badge but then said that she wouldn't be a member. This is what led her to the found Kappa Alpha Theta with three friends. I guess they must have changed policies since 1869?

http://www.kappaalphatheta.org/img/p...orth_badge.jpg

But in the case of the person she asked, there was no difference. Had she asked a Sinfonian or a PhiGam, they'd have had an answer, right?

I think that may be the case.

Sort of, but that's my point. In the case of the person she asked, there was no difference (presumably) in her sorority. But her "what's the difference?" suggests there isn't one ever.

If there's one thing I've seen time and time again on GC, it's that there is an understandable tendency, particularly among collegiates or new alumni, to assume that the way things are done in "our" GLO or on "our" campus is the way they're done by everyone everywhere.

I'm not saying the advisor's response wasn't understandable. But a better response would have been "it varies according to policies of specific fraternities and sororities -- to some it matters and to others it doesn't -- and according to campus culture."

I know in my org on my campus, we would always spell out our letters for anything a New Member or nonmember might wear (tshirts for formals, philanthropy, etc). But I know other orgs on my campus did not do this.

My daughter said she wasn't allowed to use the Pi Beta Phi Greek letter tote bag she received from her rec writer until she was initiated. She could only wear items that had Pi Beta Phi spelled out. She also has a FIJI-Chi Omega fundraiser shirt in her now-extensive Greek event shirt collection.

We don't have a letters rule...the only stipulation is that only initiated members can wear anything with our crest on it.

Not allowing your New Members to wear letters until being initiated is (now) called HAZING. It singles out what 1 group of members can do, or cannot do.

Chi Omega (also) can put letters on a shirt which non-members can wear, but no one except members can wear the crest.

Wait...what's the difference in letting a NM wear a shirt with letters but not one with the crest that makes one hazing and one not?

This is one of those cases of "it's hazing!" that muddies the water of what actual hazing is. IMHO.

I'm pretty sure this varies? I know Theta Phi considers it hazing, but I thought I'd heard of at least one NPC org that had a national rule about only initiated sisters wearing letters. New members don't know what they mean, so why should they wear them? I see both sides of the issue.

Edit to add:

ChioLu said "members", not "initiated sisters". I think she means that you could give your dad a shirt with letters on it, but not one with the crest--that's only for members, be they new or initiated. Correct?

Alpha Delta Pi's policy is the same as Chi Omega's. Our use of the crest is for members only, and should never, ever appear on glassware made for alcoholic beverages. That said, it happens. That said, it upsets me when I see the crest on shot glasses etc!

Ok, that makes a little more sense, I guess?

It's not called "hazing" by my fraternity. It's mandated in our national bylaws. Some orgs may consider it hazing, but many other orgs do not. Distinctions in what one group of members can do as opposed to another group is not the definition of hazing. If anything, it is just a bright line that some groups have adopted to try and make sure no one gets anywhere near hazing.

Serious Question: Do you allow New Members to wear the badge instead of a new member pin prior to initiation? Because if you don't, it seems like that would also be hazing if the criterion is singling out what one group of members can do and another group of members can't.

Absolutely.

It might be considered hazing in your organization, but blanket statements are dangerous to make. And realistically, all organizations makes distinctions between different classes of members.

While a different t-shirt is not like "paddling the pledges". pressuring the pledges to commit a crime or mandatory alcohol shots. It's the broad sense of treating one group of the same fraternity/sorority different than the rest. It's subjective.

I think MC's question here is very valid. By the way you bolded and capitalized your first statement, this is clearly a serious infraction in your mind. At least that's what I'm taking away from that.

There's a whole lot of grey area when it comes to hazing, and I (personally) would rank this as not-a-big-deal-and-don't-want-real-hazing-lumped-into-this-category-type-thing.

Again, that's just my take-away from all of this.

And subjective is a very dangerous thing when you're talking about whether something is forbidden or not . . . or in the case of hazing, criminal or not.

By definition, hazing is not about treating different members differently. Hazing has to do with harassment; real or potential physical, mental or emotional endangerment; demeaning someone or subjecting them to ridicule or embarrassment as part of an initiation.

Like I said, some groups have decided to use simple bright lines like "anything where members are treated differently" as a means of ensuring no one actually crosses the line. (And as I intimated, if those groups don't let NMs wear the badge or participate in all ritual, then I question whether they really are drawing the line at anything that treats members differently.) If that works for those groups, fine. But be aware that other groups may not draw the line there. To say simply "it's hazing" rather than "my group considers it hazing" risks effectively claiming that the national policies of some other GLOs require hazing.

So, I've noticed the attitude toward wearing letters is different depending on the area. From my background, only non-new members can wear the actual Greek letters. But, they're okay to wear by anyone if it's a shirt with a bunch of letters on it. Say, an IFC shirt or a party shirt.

But then I've run into other chapters where only Brothers can wear stitched letters, but anyone can wear them if they're screen printed.

And then there's the "it doesn't matter" POV.

I never get worked up about anyone's attitude towards them, really.

By non-new members,do you mean Phis and above?

Gamma Phi Beta agrees with this position. In the New Member Education Manual, it states, under the heading Practices Considered Hazing:

"Some activities and expectations which are considered to be hazing:

• Preventing new members from wearing Gamma Phi Beta letters"

(yes, it is the first bullet)

I would say that our definition of hazing falls on the strict end of the spectrum, but I think that's a good idea. That said, the Greek letters vs. spelled out words rule might have links to initiation ritual/meaning for some groups, and I respect that.

We had Greek Week shirts with all the fraternities' and sororities' (around 20 groups total) letters on them. No one thought twice about it. Crests would have been another story.

I have never had a problem with our pledges wearing letters before initiation...but our letters correspond to an open motto, readable by anyone who looks at our crest. I would never, ever, ever presume to tell another group they should do the same, as I have no clue what their letters mean or whether it works the same way ours does.

Finally, regardless of what your national HQ says, compelling new members to wear letters may ALSO be hazing, if it sets them apart from the general campus norms, cultures and traditions.

I believe it's Kappa Alpha Theta.. but please, someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Yes!

This is the same for AST on both accounts. And our coat-of-arms is only for initiated sisters to wear (which may be what you meant by "members" in your statement?)

I think it's true of both Theta and Pi Phi. Maybe others as well.

Yes, only initiated members may wear the letters.

However, on my campus, we were a little more lax with party shirts, philanthropy shirts, etc. For example, Derby Day shirts come to mind. Three** of the ten groups on our campus required initiation to wear letters, however, on the Derby Day shirts every year all 10 groups were listed by their letters and no one got worked up about it. Date party shirts could be either way- shortened nicknames, or small letters, particularly on the front pocket.

This distinction was partly because those shirts were worn by the masses, whereas stitched letters were solely worn by members (new and initiated) of a specific group. Somehow we never considered the teeny letters on the front pocket or in the long list of sororities as truly "wearing the letters."

As said above- campus culture variations and lots of people interpreting things the way they see fit.

**At the time, on my campus, the other two were Pi Phi and ChiO. I guess either Chi-O's policy has changed or our campus applied their own rules? As far as I know, Pi Phi still holds out until initiation.

Add Sigma Chi, and I believe Alpha Epsilon Phi as well, to the list of GLOs where only initiated members may wear Greek letters. I would also add that I’ve seen many a Sigma Chi Derby Day shirt that includes (Sigma Chi) letters on them and I don’t think it is a concern by IHQ.

Per Kappa Alpha Theta bylaws (paraphrased):

Only initiated members AND colony members may wear the Greek Letters Kappa Alpha Theta. There are exceptions: Theta's Greek letters may be worn by others IF they appear in a promotional sense WITH other fraternal organizations (e.g. philanthropy activities - banners, clothing, etc.). New members can wear the letters (e.g. on t-shirts) for the purpose of promoting the Greek system or philanthropic activities. So seeing our letters on a Derby Day tshirt (just for example) along with other GLOs is fine; and new members can wear those shirts.

You are correct - only initiated sisters of Alpha Epsilon Phi may wear the Greek letters. New members and non-members can wear items with "AEPhi" or "Alpha Epsilon Phi" fully spelled out, but not with the Greek letter phi.

I was just coming here to post this, I remember you and I talking about it once. When I was an active, we insisted party shirts and greek week shirt with all letters on them only say "Theta" and not "KAO."

Pi Phi new members cannot wear our Greek letters until after initiation. It is in our national bylaws. The letters do have a secret meaning. And personally, I felt a greater connection to wearing the letters after learning their meaning / waiting for the privilege. It is (was) a tradition on my campus for big sisters to give their newly initiated little a lavaliere with our letters on the front, and initials & date of initiation on the back as our first letters. It was a fun tradition. (although I had kind of a deadbeat big--she deactivated at the end of her sophomore year and I never got a lavaliere. At my graduation, my fabulous little got me one.)

How precious of her!

For formal shirts and philanthropy events, we spell out everything on my campus. However, for Greek Week and Recruitment, all of the Greek letter symbols are put on the shirts. It makes me feel uncomfortable because people who don't know our traditions, rituals, and values are wearing my letters and vice versa. While I respect the other organizations on campus and have good friends in all of them, I don't feel comfortable wearing their letters either. Even if they are only 1/2 and inch tall.

While there is no rule against doing this, I think it should be a common courtesy not to include Greek letters on universally worn shirts. I worked hard to learn my organization's history and I continue to live our ideals daily. If someone does not embody those ideals, I do not want them wearing my letters. One should only wear letters of the organization they join themselves or are deemed fit by another organization to wear (becoming sweetheart, being pinned, or lettered).

Weird...I know of several schools (Bama comes to mind immediately) that give out jerseys with the Pi Phi greek letters on them on Bid Day?

It's probably one of the cases where some chapters are more cognizant/respectful of rules/traditions than others. I think the practice varies across the board but, technically, letters are not worn by new members.

This is not a slam on the chapters that do this--sometimes things get lost over the years. For instance, my chapter always rigorously abided by our membership rules regarding legacies and included Nieces as legacies. Apparently, this isn't correct!

A lot of chapters operate more on word-of-mouth and nebulous oral traditions than actual fraternity bylaws, for better or for worse.

Gotcha!

I have to ask generallygreek if she got a lavaliere...she mentioned something about a necklace, but she hasn't said anything about this tradition. Her rec writer did get her a lettered tote bag from Pi Phi Express.