I am appalled. That's the only decent word I can use to explain how I feel.

Actually the site has been up for a while. The ZTA pin is actually from my 'home' chapter and from the year the chapter was chartered.

Since ownership is difficult to prove, it's just about impossible to 'go after' these collectors.

Barbara

Sorority/Fraternity pins for sale on the 'Net
 

Hey all you GC'ers.... check out the new "pin selling" site that went up this past week....
http://www.VintageFraternityPins.com

What do people think of this?

------------------
Oh, Kappa Kappa Kappa Gamma,
I'm so happy that I am a
Kappa Kappa Kappa Gamma,
Nobody knows . . . how
happy I am!

I hate the fact how collectors make money off something that people like us hold sacred. I've seen a Pi Sigma Epsilon pin from our founding year go on sale on Ebay and if only I had the money I would have bought it to keep it off the hands of non members.
i guess it's just hard for these collectors to understand how we feel about this topic. Theyr'e so selfish! Our national headquarters just told us to put in our will that our survivors not put the pin for sale, and instead either return it to nationals or bury us with it.

This whole thing makes me sick. The nice thing is that when I've bought pins/bidded, members of my sorority were really nice about asking whether I was a member or not. It just shows that so many of us care about our heritage and keeping our pins safe. Just keep in mind, y'all, what comes around, goes around!

It's unfortunate that they are obviously out to make a good profit off of their findings. While I don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, at least they seem to be trying to return the pins to their respective fraternities. Unlike some sellers who don't care who they sell to (ebay, anyone?).

On one hand, it shows how much the non-Greek population admire our pins as things of beauty, which they are. On the other hand, if they wanted to possess a fraternity/sorority pin so badly, then why didn't they go through the process of joining a GLO like the rest of us? I imagine a member of any organization (GLO, Elk, Mason, etc.) would be extremely upset if they saw their objects that are reserved solely for their members or bretheren up for grabs to the general public! As for me, I will ensure that I am buried with my pin.

-pirate00
Alpha Phi Omega www.apo.org
Kappa Upsilon www.geocities.com/apoku_99
East Carolina University www.ecu.edu

"As scouting is worldwide, so should Alpha Phi Omega be worldwide, gradually in the colleges and universities of all nations."
-- Frank Reed Horton, Founder

"To be of service is a solid foundation for contentment in this world."
-- Charles William Eliot

" I believe in sharing Alpha Phi Omega. I tell people about it all the time. And
certainly I know the good feeling that comes from sharing APO with others through
service projects."
-- Jack McKenzie, National President



[This message has been edited by pirate00 (edited May 06, 2001).]

I probably will be buried with an Alpha Phi Omega pin as well, but since in my chapter, the tradition is that you pass down pins to your littles, the pin that I had when I left college was the one that I bought after I gave my pin to my little. SInce then I've put pins through the wash (they don't survive that well) and other similar things. OTOH, I bought on ebay an Alpha Phi Omega pin from the 1950's that is about half the size of what I have now. I'm happy I have that pin and I'm not really sure how I would have gotten it if they didn't sell such things on ebay.

Fortunately with Alpha Phi Omega pins (the standard ones) being brass and non-jeweled, the bids don't get up into the stratosphere, the way the ones for other GLOs do.


------------------
Naraht
Alpha Phi Omega Alumni Volunteer

OTOH, I bought on ebay an Alpha Phi Omega pin from the 1950's that is about half the size of what I have now. I'm happy I have that pin and I'm not really sure how I would have gotten it if they didn't sell such things on ebay.

[/B][/QUOTE]Well, it's a good thing that you received the pin and not a non-Brother, because only Brothers are to possess APO paraphernalia. I wish that along with the APO "store", there was a sort of exchange set up between the brothers where old pins and other things could be traded and sold AMONGST OURSELVES and not with the general public. This would be a place where all used paraphernalia would end up, and other fraternities/soroities could model this system as well. What does everyone think of this idea?

-pirate00
Alpha Phi Omega www.apo.org
Kappa Upsilon www.geocities.com/apoku_99
East Carolina University www.ecu.edu

"As scouting is worldwide, so should Alpha Phi Omega be worldwide, gradually in the colleges and universities of all nations."
-- Frank Reed Horton, Founder

"To be of service is a solid foundation for contentment in this world."
-- Charles William Eliot



[This message has been edited by pirate00 (edited May 08, 2001).]

Have Pirate or Randy ever purchase a fratenity lavalier from the APQ/GSS website. http://members.tripod.com/~APQGSS/newbindex.html

Check it out.

------------------
JayBEE!

Ay-Phi-Que!
Alpha Alpha Lambda Chapter
Alcorn State Unversity
Fall, October 18th 1980
President, Brothers of the Rising Sun, Atlanta Alumni Chapter of Alpha Phi Omega
JayBEE's State Of Mind
The AyPhiQueGammaSig Family Homepage

Re: Sorority/Fraternity pins for sale on the 'Net
 

Hmmm....

Argh!!!!
 

This makes me so mad!!! I have personally bought six Alpha Phi pins, which were being sold on E-bay, including a 50-year pin, which are not only hard to come by, but an honor to possess that only a lifelong member should get to enjoy.

I have spent a lot of money trying to make sure non-Alpha Phis don't get their slimy hands on our pins. (Sorry, this just makes me so angry!!) I hope all Greeks who are able, will try to outbid these non-Greek "collectors."

Sorry for being so harsh, it is just an issue I feel very strongly about.

Greek Love,
Jen

It bothers me a lot... I didn't see any AEPhi pins on the site imsohappythatiama posted, but I have seen one or two on ebay (and I don't check there all that often).

On the one hand, I don't mind that they're available for sale *to sisters* (or even to new members) who want a badge with some history behind it. If I have a daughter and she joins AEPhi, I will give her my badge - but I may decide I still want a badge of my own, and I don't know how happy I'd be with a shiny new one from national.

On the other hand, non-members are buying up these pins, as well as those of other GLO's, and either turning around and selling them to members for a profit, or disassembling them for the pearls/diamonds/gold/etc they're made from. Ugh. Makes me sick. :mad:

Should we be more upset that members (or their estates) are selling the pins for a quick profit, or that people with no connection are buying them?

BOTH!
 

BOTH! Definitely both. It is sad that these pins aren't kept by the heirs of these women who pass on or sent back to IHQs. The ones I really, really hate are those "collectors" who outbid sorority members on their own pins.

It is like when Michael Jackson outbid Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, George Harrison and the estate of John Lennon for all the publishing rights to the Beatles' songs. IT IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!

Again, sorry, I feel so strongly about this! I hate thinking that some random person out there has the Alpha Phi pin I hold so dear. :mad:

Greek Love,
Jen

I was wondering...for non-members who purchase the pins...do they actually end up wearing them? Or do they just keep them in a box for the collection?
I hate the idea of GLO pins coming into non-members hands, but I would hate it even more, if non-members were WEARING them, as though it was merely a decorative brooch or something, you know?

Another thought: to be honest with you, I think when a GLO member dies, the family might not genuinely know the proper method of "disposal" for a pin for a deceased member....that the sorority/fraternity pin should to be returned to nationals (if it can't be handed down to a son/daughter who is also an initiated member).

In November of last year, my best friend's father passed away. As we were going through his stuff we came across his faternity pins from the 60's. I told her mom to find the address from nationals and mail them back. She did and they received a nice letter from the national office expressing thanks and condolances. If it had not been for this site and me knowing what to do, I'm sure she would have just given them away or sold them off.

B.

So far, there are 5-6 of us who buy our Badges off of the sites.
I have bought 7 and will eventually donate to my Chapter or sell at a good price to Brothers who have lost or given to a member of their family and lost them!

If we have several bidding and i alway check to see if they are Brothers, we will back off of bidding so as to not get to high!

I backed off of one from Rose-Huleman as had checked with him and he was roomate with one of the Brothers that I have talked with. As it turned out since it was one of their Brothers and an Alum, they found him and sold it back to him! He was estatic to have it found as had been stolen!

So there is always a way without getting the bid to outrages. You can check and send e-m to bidders on ebay and if they do not get back to you, then they probably are not a Brother or Sister!!

I've seen Chi Omega pins listed on Ebay, and have bid on them in order to get them off of there...always get outbid though....Anyhoo! It makes me angry that people can sell as jewlery, what I worked hard for. My question is, how do they get them in the first place??

Reasons?
 

A few of you have wondered why in the world someone might want to buy GLO pins. I have a feeling that, if not a member trying to buy one back, most ebay purchasers are people who are simply collectors.

Now, please, I'm afraid that you guys are going to tear me up or something, but [in a very simple way] I don't see what the real difference is between collecting these pins and collecting Disney stuff or WWII memorabilia.

Well, let me clarify, *I know* why it is important to GLO members that pins stay in the family. I just have a feeling that these other folks are really unaware of what the pins symbolize to you [all]. You see, *they* honestly don't know; and I don't think I can fault them for that. I guess I'm just a forgiving person that way.

I've read some of the descriptions of the sellers and they've said things like, "Wow, this is the prettiest greek pin I've seen yet!" and things like that. I think the collectors are appreciating them for their beauty, intricacy and rarity. Someone else, pirate00, mentioned this earlier.

Since I think it would be very hard to keep them from changing hands, I'd rather have them go to collecters who will display them nicely in a case instead of someone who will walk around wearing it as if s/he earned it! (the lesser of the two evils?) Obviously, the best choice is to keep them in the family. Do you all see what I mean?

Finally, my psych background wants to think that there may be a small tiny minority of buyers who never went greek and are now trying to live out their dream. But really, I don't think there are many. Good thing too!


......Kelly :)


One last thing! For the record, I am NOT a collector! I hope it doesn't sound that way!

When people, who weren't very active in their organizations or have no legacies, pass away, their survivors often don't know what to do with them, and selling them seems like the "best" option. They often show up in garage sales. When people resign, are forced to leave, or become inactive, the pin means nothing, so selling it or giving it away seems like another good option.

I have attempted to bid on AXO pins, but they're so expensive. What drives me bonkers is when 50th or 75th anniversary pins are being sold. :mad:

I am a GLO member who cherishes the emblem of my fraternity deeply, and I am also a fairly serious collector of fraternity and sorority badges. I think many of the people here are making some uninformed assumptions about the people buying and selling these pins, and the reasons they’re doing it.

I think it’s naïve and childish to expect others to share your values, and to cherish something as you do. To a dealer making a living by selling estate jewelry, a fraternity or sorority pin is no different than an engagement ring or a wedding band or a pocket watch. What gives you the right to send hate mail to someone for auctioning off the badge of your group?

I commend everyone involved in returning badges to national headquarters, in trying to ensure badges go only to members, and in recovering stolen badges. That is indeed a worthy effort. But the kind of hostility many GLO members display toward buyers and sellers of pins is contrary to the ideals that your badge is supposed to stand for in my opinion.

A badge is a hunk of gold and jewels. What is truly valuable are the ideals for which the emblem stands. That is intangible and cannot be sold on Ebay.

wptw

I respectfully disagree...
 

wptw,

I am confused by some of the things you say in your post.

If you "cherish the emblem of your fraternity deeply", how can it NOT bother you to see that emblem up for sale anywhere - be it on the 'Net, or in an estate sale, etc.??

I don't agree wtih your belief that a GLO pin is "no different than an engagement ring" etc...if only because in many cases, the GLO pin actually belongs to the organization , rather than the individual member, and should be returned to the GLO upon the member's death or resignation. I do not know the policy of all GLOs, so I may be wrong on a few counts here!

I do agree that it does absolutely no good, however, to send hate mail to non-members who buy these badges.

I don't really know what the solution is to end this problem of GLO pins being sold inappropriately!

I personally prefer to give my hard-earned cash to the AXO Foundation, or another worthy organization of my choice! But I, like you, applaud others efforts to recover their own GLO's badges.

Caroline

I respectfully disagree also
 

wptw,

As a GLO member, I would assume you know that most National GLOs have policies which state that their badges do not belong to any individual, but to the organization itself. The sorority/fraternity is the rightful owner of the badge and it, according to written regulations, is to be returned to Headquarters if the wearer is deceased or is no longer a member of the organization.

For that reason, I strongly disagree with a GLO member who collects badges because I consider it to be extremely disrespectful (to the organizations that the badges belong to as well as the entire Greek system) to knowingly ignore a policy that is followed by so many groups. I can, to a point, understand a non-Greek collector who doesn't understand why a badge is so symbolic and keeps it only for its outward beauty or monetary value, but I simply cannot comprehend how a Greek, with his/her inside knowledge, can collect badges of other organizations for his/her personal gratification. (Please know that I am not trying to insult you, wptw. I am only trying to give my point of view on this issue.)

As a GLO member myself, I would immediately return a badge to Headquarters if I happened across one in a pawn shop, on E-Bay, at an estate sale, etc., EVEN IF it was not a badge that belonged to my organization. If I didn't have the money to purchase the badge outright, I would make it a point to contact the organization's National Headquarters so that a member has the opportunity to rescue the badge.

I have over the years sent several e-mails to various groups about badges for sale, and have always gotten heartfelt thanks from each one. I think it's a great way to keep positive relations flowing in the Greek system and is a wonderful courtesy to extend to our fellow Greek sisters and brothers. :)

In the Greek Bond,
Carrie :)

Hello Caroline and Carrie,

The legality of badge ownership after a member’s death has been discussed at length, and in my opinion the GLO’s case is pretty weak. Some (not most) groups specify that ownership reverts back to the HQ after death, or that the badge is only leased from them to begin with. But again, that’s fairly weak in strict contractual terms. That’s why you don’t see it effectively enforced by our national HQs. And even if it was an enforceable contract, how is a dealer supposed to know that? That is the basis for me saying a sorority pin is the same as an engagement ring – strong sentimental and symbolic value, but ultimately just gold and jewels – a commodity.

Sure, it bothers me a little bit to see my badge for sale on Ebay. But I know that the vast majority of the time that badge will be bought by either a member, someone trying to return it to the organization, or a collector who will treat it with the proper respect and admiration. I can live with that. Contrary to paranoid belief, these pins are generally not being bought so that non-members can parade around in them.

I know a lot of dealers who look around trying to find GLO pins to sell. Every last one of them tells me how only a couple of years ago they sent these pins to be melted down because there was no demand for them whatsoever. I know you all want to believe in a rosy world where these pins are picked out of the junk heap, polished up and returned to members or sent back to the national HQ, or where HQs have unlimited resources to scour the Earth for badges to rescue. But that just isn’t the case.

Like it or not, the attention that Ebay has given these pins has saved the vast majority of them from melt. Prior to Ebay it was largely collectors, not individual members like you or even HQs who preserved them. So take, for example, a beautiful founders-era AXO pin. Where would you rather that badge end up? In a nice velvet-lined glass case in my library, or having its pearls pried out and then melted down?

I’m not a saint on a crusade to preserve badges. I think they’re beautiful and I admire what they represent, so I spend my hard-earned money on them. And if in the meantime my participation saves them from being destroyed, so much the better. If you are in a financial position which allows you to purchase badges at market price and return them to their respective HQs, then good for you.

Do whatever you think is right, but get some perspective and be reasonable people. Enough of the insults and the threats and the hostile rhetoric that some people have written here and elsewhere.

wptw

Okay. I seriously debated whether to respond to wptw's post. I don't want to get into a big argument/debate about this, because I doubt it would result in either of us changing our minds on this issue.

WPTW, you have a right to your opinion, and I have a right to mine: namely, that I don't like to see my group's (Alpha Phi) pins for sale online, in jewellry stores, or anywhere.

I don't believe that I (or anyone else) ever stated that I expected non-Greeks to, "share [my] values, and to cherish something as [I] do."

I am not naive, nor childish. I simply value Alpha Phi, its pins and all that I know them to stand for. I have never sent hate mail to a person or company that "makes its living" selling estate jewellry (including fraternity and sorority pins). Nor would I ever do so.

In my posts I was simply stating my opinion: that I hate to see these pins being sold, and I think it is wrong. I am old enough, and, I believe, mature enough to know that others will disagree with me. So be it.

Just as you have chosen to collect these pins and see nothing wrong in it--I, and others, have chosen to vehemently oppose such sales, though, admittedly, there is little we can do about it.

The best we Greeks can do, I think, is to purchase any pins we see being sold--whether online, in a vintage jewllery store, or in a pawn shop. Do what you can to buy back these pins and send them back to your IHQs. If you cannot afford it, notify your IHQs of where you saw it and, perhaps, they will be able to obtain the pin.

WPTW: I sincerely hope it was not my posts that you considered to be "hateful," "insulting," or "hostile." In my posts I simply meant to convey my most ardent opposition to the sale of these pins. Perhaps, my posts were a bit on the harsh side and if I offended you, I apologize. I fired off those posts "in the heat of the moment."

I'd be happy to chat with you privately, if you so desire.

Peace...and Greek Love,
Jen

Hi Jen,

No, your posts weren't offensive. Look, we work hard for our badges, they mean a lot to us and we hope that everyone values them as we do and treats them with the same respect that we do. That is certainly not naive or childish.

But to DEMAND such treatment because those are your beliefs is indeed naïve. And to talk and act the way some people have is outrageous. You have people in this forum using language like "crummy hands" or "slimy hands" when referring to a collector. You have people in this forum – Moderators! – who name the names of collectors and other people bidding on these pins, and then stalk them to find out what else they’re bidding on! You have people sending hate mail filled with expletives and threats of violence to these people, such that they start worrying about their personal safety and the safety of their families.

Sorry, but that is absolute crap. Someone is angry because another person doesn’t respect the high ideals their badge stands for, so in a spectacular violation of those ideals they send a vulgar threat letter? The irony is staggering.

Disagree with me if you like, but at least get all the facts straight. Collectors are almost exclusively buyers – not sellers. We are not profiteering from constantly buying and reselling pins. The people selling the pins are dealers, pawn shop owners, estate jewelers, etc. From their perspective, they’ve purchased these items legally and they sell them for profit because that’s what they do for a living. Collectors are almost exclusively GLO members, and the ones I know are exceptionally dedicated to their groups and to the Greek community in general, more so than the “average” GLO member I would say. Collectors often return badges to national HQs, especially in the case of unique or historically significant badges. The collecting community publishes alerts about lost or stolen badges, and is often successful in getting them removed from Ebay and returned to their rightful owner. Despite what you may think, we really do care about these items and what they represent.

Thanks for your reply, Jen. I would be happy to talk privately as well if you like.

wptw

wptw... as a fellow collector I applaud your efforts to speak your opinions on this sensitive (apparently) subject. As one who mostly just lurks around these pages, I have to tell you it is great to hear a voice of reason.

TechAPhi, I have respect for you for not becoming as emotionally involved as many of the people who have posted on this subject before. Thank you for your mature discussion.

A point both of you would agree on I think is that our GLOs are very meaningful to us, and we don't want to see them, or their symbols, disrespected. As has been noted on this thread (and others), the collectors of these badges do respect their meaning and symbolism, whether or not they fully understand the same. The simple fact is they are respectfully displayed, and nobody to my knowledge has ever tried to misrepresent themselves as a member of an organizatoin to which they do not belong.

This will always be a sensitive subject because of our feelings for our groups. I would feel worse I think if nobody cared. Unfortunately, I have learned that the less tolerant out there will always try to intimidate those who don't share their point of view.

As I said, I am mostly just a passive participant in this forum, but I wanted to add my two cents worth in support of wptw. This is the first reasonable discussion on this topic I have seen yet.

B