Why are recs absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others?
 

Considering some discussion on another thread – I was wondering – why are recommendations absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others (acknowledging that member selection policies vary among chapters)?

Before reading on this site, I assumed that recs were usually submitted prior to recruitment at just about every school (acknowledging that the recruitments at some of our universities would be considered ridiculously over-the-top by the majority of other Greeks nationwide).

I know a mom whose daughter is planning to attend Wash U next year, and mom assumes (as would I) that her daughter will need to have several recs per chapter, and that this would best be completed by summer’s end if possible (rush is deferred there). I just checked Wash U’s site, and didn’t find any info for PNMs regarding recs (or a colorful 50-page pdf on the fundamentals of recruitment and fashion, either ;)). Perhaps recs are not a part of the recruitment culture or expectation there (?) – the only other girl I know of there now isn’t in a sorority.

I guess my actual question is . . . if chapters at schools outside of the must-have-recs list are able to recruit wonderful pledge classes full of accomplished and felony-free young women, are alum-generated and endorsed recs really necessary? Or do we just do this because we have always done things this way?

Just food for thought. Don’t get me wrong, I still see the value of personal recommendations, but a lot has changed in regard to transmission of information, social networking, numbers of legacies, and OOS campus populations in the last three decades or so (at my own school anyway). I can't imagine that alum-endorsed recs will become obsolete anytime in the near future, but I’d be interested in knowing how PNM info is gathered/handled by chapters at schools where recs are not expected (not intended to tread on membership selection info).

*If any PNMs are reading, by all means heed the “ Schools where you absolutely positively need recs” thread:
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...d.php?t=112718

*** And if anyone has any advice on recs (or recruitment in general) at Washington University, please post (I did search the “schools where you must have recs” thread and the forum search, but didn’t see a search result concerning recs at Wash U).

I'll be PMing you...

I personally think they have outlived their usefulness. I like the idea of an alumna submitting a rec for her best friend's daughter who she has known and loved since literally the day she was born. But the recs from an Alumnae Panhellenic or your dentist's sister's hair dresser seem like a hazing before the fact task.

I wish NPC would get together and ban them, but that doesn't just stray but treads heavily on member selection. I'd rather see a day of rush added so the chapters can get to know the girls better and eliminate this archaic process. Or 5 minute interviews similar to the interviews that happen in colonies. The alums would be doing these interviews. And if the chapters don't like this because it's giving too much power to the alums, then they shouldn't be using recs anyway, because that's exactly what they're doing by putting so much importance on them. I picture this round happening between rounds 1 and 2. Just a thought!

In my experience at two schools on the must have recs list, it's just another hoop for the new members to jump through and a check box for the chapter to check off. I think they should be eliminated.

Recs can often cause more problems than they remedy. For girls like me who came from very small towns, it can be trying and frustrating to locate recs in the first place. If I had had to obtain recs in my town of fewer than 5,000 people I would have been able to locate AXO, ADPi and SK for sure. I only knew about the AXO because she was the mother of dear childhood friends and she is the one who mentioned even joining a sorority. If I had asked around I would have found out that there was a group of women from my hometown who were all SKs together at IU in the early 1970s. I found this out later after I was initiated and was wearing my lavaliere at a local restaurant when a friend of the family told me her daughter was a SK and so were her friends. I grew up near a smaller commuter college and many of my teachers went to school there where the was no Greek life until the later 1970s. The ADPi I also found out much later after recruitment. The closest alumnae panhellenic was an hour away, so none of them would have personally known me.

To get to the point, girls from small towns or who are in remote areas are less likely to find recs and will have a more difficult time. This puts them behind the 8 ball to begin with but it's in no way indicative of their ability to be good members. I find the practice somewhat discriminatory.

I can't remember which SEC school it was, but one of the Panhellenic website's addressed recs as something that helps sororities "manage the numbers."

I could be wrong, but I think recs becoming mandatory at some schools has evolved from RFM requiring chapters to release a certain number of PNMs starting early in the process. Think about a school like Bama where approximately 2000 PNMs rushed last year. First round brings all of them through your house where they spend maybe 30 minutes talking to a couple of sisters. How in the world do you make cuts with those kinds of dynamics? There has to be criteria for making them automatic -- and that criteria seems to be lower GPA or lacking a rec to your chapter.

Just my thoughts, but that's why I think they've become a huge deal at some schools where recruitment is fiercely competitive and there are record numbers of PNMs. "Managing the numbers" as it was said. I do a lot of recs every year and always tell the PNMs that the goal is to keep them in the game past first round. Recs don't even guarantee that, but do seem to up the chances in these massive SEC recruitments.

I, too, would like to see them eliminated and it isn't because I mind doing them. I don't mind at all, but they are often one of -- if not the -- most stressful aspects of recruitment prep for PNMs (and their moms) at these competitive schools. Given the purpose (I think) these recs really serve, I don't know how to make them unnecessary in such environments.

Coming from a school without recs at all, this is what I don't understand:

Why make it so difficult for someone to join? And let's say you did in fact track down recs to 5.. 10.. 15 different chapters (depending on where you attend school) - you struggled to get them. You found anyone you possibly could, maybe sat with them for a cup of coffee, and this stranger is going to write you a rec, defending your character and putting their own a** "on the line," so to speak?

Here's a question from someone who knows very little (and has never actually seen a rec in her life): What do you think would be more valuable to you as an active sorority member? A rec from an alumna of your sorority from another school, whom you've never met, who may have only met her PNM once? Or a "rec" from a teacher, coach, employer, etc. of the PNM who has seen the PNM work and has spent countless hours working with them and getting to know them?

Personally, if it were up to me, I know I'd choose the latter.

Someone should forward this thread to all 26 NPC's!

I totally agree. I also agree with AST's post, what does the recommendation from an alumna who met the girl for an hour really mean in the grand scheme of things? I am very glad my campus is not one of those must have campuses or I might not have been Greek at all.

All great points – I agree (greekdee) that lack of a rec is probably an easy way to sort invites for an upcoming round in some of these massive recruitments.

Which overlaps IndianaSigKap’s point about the difficulty some girls from small communities may have obtaining several recs for every chapter -- a PNM could even become a “rush crush” of an active who takes her through, but if there are no alum contacts in her community who the busy chapter advisors or membership chair can locate quickly (before decisions are made), then she may fall through the cracks.

Just thinking out loud – when my daughter registered for recruitment, part of the registration involved completion of an online form that included some of the information that was also on her resume (likely the most important items). I think that GPAs may have been verified via university admission records. So I was wondering if some system developed in this vein might be as useful, and potentially easier and more equitable to PNMs, than the same info submitted by alums. (I realize this is probably SEC heresy)

And like DubaiSis indicated, if the rec is coming from the dentist’s sister’s hairdresser, then it really isn’t any more meaningful than what the PNMs could just submit themselves.

I guess this really wouldn’t do much to manage the numbers, but it might help reduce and organize the mountain of paper that the membership chairs receive, and render the information easier to compare (every PNM submits info on the same form).

And this would be a lot less stressful for the PNMs (and their moms). A friend who is originally from Boston thought I was kidding, and then crazy, when I explained what her daughter likely needed to gather before rush at LSU.

Without getting too much into membership selection... This is the only input many alumnae get into membership selection. If it's a lifelong sisterhood, our opinions should be heard, too.

I've worked recruitment at two different campuses (small chapters) that did not require recs. I assure you that recs were obtained for the PNMs that the chapter wanted. They were just obtained behind the scenes without input from PNMs. I think PNMs are better off if they obtain their own recs. It allows them to have input into who is giving them a rec.

Yes, if that alumna wants a voice. If the alumna volunteers to write the rec for a girls she knows, then great. We've all done it. That's the best case scenario. But what happens in the instances where the alumna does not know the girl, meets her for an hour or so and then writes the rec? Most of us could carry on a pleasant conversation with a stranger for an hour or so, but do we really know the stranger at the end of the encounter? What does a rec from a stranger really say? I know cases where the alum has written a rec for a girl they barely know because it's a friend's granddaughter. Then they come to find out that the granddaughter is the queen of the red solo cup on her social media. Not all alumnae still know how to search social media for such clues. This rec was taken seriously and another deserving girl was cut because she had no rec. Just playing devils' advocate, here.

I can understand that -- for the PNMs who alums know very well. On the other hand, this can also lead to some conflict and hard feelings when an alum's favorite PNM or legacy is released.

I've written recs on girls whose parents I knew better than the girl herself, and on girls I haven't known all their lives. I also disclosed how well/long I knew the PNM -- and was content to leave the rest to the chapter (without feeling offended over my input one way or another). Most of the girls I know very, very well are daughters of close friends and family, and/or those who were clustered around my own daughter's age.

Maybe alums could still write personal letters of support if they wished, on their own (unsolicited), for the few girls they know well and are really passionate about.

Like I said, just thinking out loud (meandering mostly I guess).

I have wondered if the "do you know the rushee personally" box on our profile forms (I don't know what other sorority forms say but I've heard here that there is a similar question on other forms) isn't telling them whether to keep or round file the form. But if that's the case, I wish they would say "we will no longer accept recommendations for members you do not personally know." And then we could stop telling girls they absolutely positively have to have recs.

Back in my day (boy do I sound like my grandmother or what), a rec was a rare and precious jewel. Believe me, when the rush chair said "we got a rec on her," the response was "ooooh wow" and that rushee got a closer look. Today, in the SEC and schools like it, I think the conversation is more like "Rec? Check."

I just don't know how to eliminate the current rec situation in these huge recruitments because recs do factor into who survives early release under RFM. Eventually, though, everyone at these schools will have recs because the word is out. What then? Release the girls who have less than 12 recs? :) If GPA becomes the sole factor in automatic early cuts, it will get to the point where a 3.8 is considered on the low end of the scale. That's ridiculous. Hey, maybe total can be raised to 700! Seriously, there has to be a better way to manage the numbers.

I just wish I knew what it was, but feel like it needs to be built into the recruitment process, allowing more opportunity to meet PNMs...yet these SEC recruitments are already made up of long, jam-packed days. If you start having a lot of early pre-recruitment events, well, that will put a lot of OSS girls at a disadvantage. Given the dynamics they are working with, I don't see the current rec situation changing in the near future.

Man, can you imagine what the mail load looks like? Imagine if every one one of Bama's 2000 PMNs had two recs to every chapter? Would not want to sort through that!

I do wonder how deferred recruitment might work at these schools with massive, uber-competitive recruitments. It would give sorority members a whole semester to meet PNMs and see them out and about. I don't see it happening, at least not in the SEC where tradition rules...but you do sometimes need to change with the times and adapt to your environment! Just a thought, good or bad.

Rush needs to take longer at the huge schools. That it takes virtually the same number of days for IU and for a school with 4 chapters is just insane. Round one should take 3 days so that the parties can last longer and allow more time to talk. And round 2 should be 2 days. If the chapters were relying more on actual conversation they could rely less on paperwork from strangers.

This. Yes.

The rec issue in the SEC predates RFM, greekdee. I have many friends that rushed at LSU and I nearly did. I had two recs lined up for each chapter at LSU way before RFM was ever even a glimmer in the NPC's eye. Friends of mine without recs were cut across the board day 1 when they showed up without recs. It's been a tradition in the SEC for a long time...maybe because of number of PNMs, maybe just because of tradition. Smaller Southern schools don't do this so I don't know what the exact answer is, but it may be a combination of many things.

I do think its an easy way to manage numbers.

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment" - Francis Urqhart/House of Cards :D

I totally disagree. I think recs have a very appropriate place in the recruitment process. Think of it this way; I would rather hire someone that comes to me with a personal recommendation then someone I find in a standard interview process. A recommendation from an alum that personally knows a young women should hold a lot of weight. No one should recommend a PNM for membership that they don't think would make a great member. Some people interview (recruit) very well. You hire (pledge) them and they are psycho. Hopefully you can avoid those mistakes by having a recommendation.

Amen

I agree that spending more time in each house would be better – but all rounds except pref are already scheduled to be 2 days long (at Bama anyway). This can be really grueling for the actives, since the chapters often have more parties than the maximum PNMs can attend (due to accommodating numbers in the physical space of the houses). In the bad ol’ days, for instance, on four-party day (now skit day – round 3), the PNMs could attend up to four parties, and each chapter conducted only four parties.

I'm not sure how many more days of recruitment would be needed in order to provide more opportunity for conversation, considering the numbers at some of these schools, but I don't think the actives would survive it!

I don’t know of a solution – just thinking out loud.

Whatever. Easy may not have been an appropriate word choice, but if you sort into rec/no rec and no rec = cut, it does simplify things a bit.

While there's no way to get these numbers, I think it would be interesting to know what percentage of recs are actually written by women who know the PNM, and aren't family friends or even friends of friends (see coffee scenario noted above). I have known women over the years who are total wrecks in real life but who are able to hold it together in the kinds of social situations that a family friend would be privy to. The family friend and friend of friends scenarios are less valuable in my opinion.

Anecdotally, I know when I went through, there were 15 chapters on my campus. Of my recs, about half were teachers and friends parents who had spent a significant amount of time with me in every day life. The remainder, not so much. I think it's this remainder category that kind of cheapens the value of a rec.

This rec thing is stressing me out currently. As a high school teacher in Massachusetts, I have a student who has been seeking my help for the last 6 months or so in trying to learn all she can to prepare for recruitment at University of Alabama in the fall. She knows she needs recommendations, but they're very hard to come by. Not all groups are well represented in the Northeast, and it's been hard going trying to find a representative for each group.
This student fears she will be at a major disadvantage being from so far away in an area where she is struggling to meet women to recommend her. Even if she does meet them, it will still not be these "I personally know the PNM" kind of recommendation, yet much time and research has gone into even finding women to do these.
I am struggling to find connections for her as well. This isn't a kid who isn't willing to put in the work, time, effort, etc. It saddens me that a kid who is willing to do all the leg work will still end up with recs that mean less than other pnms who will have more meaningful ones simply because of where the grew up.

End rant.

Maybe the Greater Boston Alumnae Panhellenic could assist?

Thanks, yeah, I should have added in that I've sent out emails to them and so has student. I am hoping that the contact info on their site is current. I'm also hoping that we can connect with them as my alumnae chapter can't seem to find a contact with the boston area alumnae Panhellenic, and maybe this will help with that as well so SK could get involved. Hopefully this will be a win win situation. :)

Please excuse my dry sense of humor, it is wry and sometimes very sarcastic.

Recs/refs help give the lesser known PNMs a chance in a huge PNM class. So many PNMs, up to 50% coming from out of state, recs/refs can only help them. Perhaps the hard requirement for a rec/ref needs to be removed?

I'm on this page....but I will also admit that I am old line southern and Cajun. Both cultures are strong on the "who's your Daddy" element - in fact, it's always stated as one of 3 questions a Cajun boy asks a girl he meets. And I truly do call around on anyone who asks me for a rec if I don't already know her. Granted, not everyone puts the research in but I was "raised" that way and I still do it. I just can't see putting my name on a form approving someone for membership if I didn't really know about her.

In the Mississippi Delta, the question is "And what is your mother's maiden name?" The question, "Where are you from?" deals more with: 1) where you were born; 2) where are "your people" from, and where do you bury "your people." My answers: The Delta, The Delta and Wyoming :cool:; and Sumner.

In Cajun culture, the questions are 1) can you make a roux - because that's the basis of a lot of their cooking, 2) can you speak French - because many older relatives don't speak English, and 3) who's your daddy - because the Cajun area is so small and there are so few Cajun surnames that this gives the questioner a sense of where you are from, where your people are and where they are buried because the Cajuns didn't stray far from home once they settled an area. They would have been too discriminated against and probaly didn't speak enough English to get by in another culture.

BTW, I haven't been through the recruitment process at WUSTL. Next January will be my first time working a WUSTL recruitment. The official position of Panhel, though, is that recs aren't required. My impression is that recruitment at WUSTL is more Midwestern and Northeastern than SEC. Mizzou is very SEC. WUSTL not so much. Recs can't hurt, but I wouldn't stress about not having two per group and I wouldn't stress if I missed one group entirely. If you are looking for help getting recs, you might also contact the St. Louis Alumnae Panhellenic Association or one of the alumnae groups for the sororities on campus. I'm sure that someone local would be happy to meet with her in the fall and look over her resume and probably give her a rec.

Info here: http://glo.wustl.edu/Pages/Joining.aspx

You can also contact the Greek Life office and double-check with them. They're really helpful people. I really like the GLO staff at WUSTL.
http://glo.wustl.edu/Pages/Contact-Us.aspx

The Delta starts in the lobby of the Peabody Hotel in Memphis, and extends southward to Greenville (some people say Vicksburg) and thence to the edge of the hills on East from Greenwood bordered by the hills and back up to the Peabody. It is a lengthy, wide, sparsely settled agricultural flood plain, where you might have to travel far from home to find what you need. That's how my Mimi met my Grandaddy. She had a flat tire out of town and needed a rec (from her cousin) to a reputable repair shop. Grandaddy had a Chrysler dealership. It was love at first sight (XΩ+KA)

Realistically, it's not worse than collegiate members voting on PNMS who they have talked to for 20 -30 minutes. It helps with the vetting process.

Yes it seems that most rec forms include a similar question – and honestly, it seems as if the rec forms themselves may be somewhat outdated.

These generally seem to ask the same questions requiring objective responses (like GPA, SAT/ACT, class rank, Greek affiliations, etc) and have (too small) spaces to include activities, honors, community service, etc.

Some have boxes to check on subjective items like poise and moral character – but it seems to me, considering the times, it should probably ask “Does the PNM’s Facebook or Twitter contain objectionable material? ” instead. (kidding, but not really)

After spending some (aggravating) time trying to log in to download rec forms (and calling to straighten out the site glitch), I discovered that these are online (in legitimate places) just for the googling. I checked about four other GLOs – same thing. Irksome, but just another sign of the times I guess.

Maybe I am just a GenX technogeek but I adore submitting the forms online electronically. For my GLO, if you have access to your GLO's member side of the GLO web site, then you have access to submit the forms electronically including uploaded jpg photos. And I have heard that the Ole Miss Theta recruitment team also appreciates the electronic forms.

That really isn't much time to base decisions upon, for sure -- a difficult issue to address in these huge recruitments.

And thanks for the info on Wash U -- best wishes for a very successful recruitment there!

MaryPoppins - you'll love this story. Last fall I was in Tuscaloosa with a sorority sister who went to MS State. Typical MS gal. I made a wrong turn and ended up on a one way street going in the wrong direction! Just as I pulled over to determine if I could make a u turn, here comes a police car. As my friend and I were gabbing away at the polite young man in the car about how sorry we were and I about how the town had changed so much from when I was in school and this road didn't used to be one way, etc, etc, he pipes up and says that it sure had changed. He was "from around these parts" and things sure had changed as the campus grew (as he chewed his wad of tobacco!). He happened to mention his family name at which point I said, in the most southern belle voice I could muster, "then you must know my uncle, Dr.......!" To which he replied " Doc ........ is your uncle?!?! Well, gosh, that makes ...... your cousin!" Well, blessed be, I jumped on that with " You know, she was named after my mama. My mama's name was ..." So then he was kind enough to direct me to the end of the block where I could make a correct turn and get back to Birmingham "all in good order" while he stood watch. Mr friend from MS said - "that sounded just like you were from MS!" We laughed all the way back to Birmingham.

Most do appreciate that as it makes it easier to import to a power point for the chapter. At least the groups I'm around like that aspect.

Titchou, that is too cute! You may have heard that the most valuable export of Mississippi is brains, and so everywhere I have ever lived, I have always been able to find someone who knew someone from back home: D.C., San Francisco, Mobile, New Orleans, and of course Memphis.