Sororities and Feminism
 

I've been thinking a lot about sororities, and how they do or do not support gender equality, and there's really not a lot of good writing out there, so I want to open it up to discussion, and maybe eventually I will write an essay on it.

Obviously, sororities are historically feminist, in that they were one way that women supported on another on male-dominated college campuses, as well as a reaction or counterpart to the formation of fraternities. I think networks of women are still very important, and certainly that's something provided by sororities, but I think that a lot of negative stuff has crept in over the years as well.

The most obvious is the emphasis on appearance, especially during recruitment. I know that some will argue that it's like a job interview, putting your best foot forward, etc., but where this is a problem, from an equality perspective, is all the stuff that women are expected to do that men aren't. Both a male and female PNM are expected, for example, to dress appropriately and be clean and well-groomed. But only the female PNM is expected to wear make-up, go tanning, etc.

Now, I think most people around these parts know that a lot of the big SEC rushes depend on who you know before you ever set foot in the door, but to an outsider, doesn't it seem that you are judged on thirty minutes of conversation? And is the perception a problem, whether or not it is reality? Aren't we then turning off the potential PNM's (PPNM's?) who won't rush for fear of being judged thusly.

I'm also unsure if serenades for social events still exist in a lot of places. They've been eliminated by my alma mater, but basically, women would dress in slutty clothing and go sing to the fraternities in hopes of getting on their social calendar. The men would respond by coming over and singing as well, but the obvious objectification only went on direction.

There's also some internal slut-shaming that I find pretty problematic, like women going to standards for sleeping with too many frat boys. Again, I am of two minds here: on one hand, not all sexual behavior is destructive. On the other, such a pattern of behavior in a 19-year-old *may* indicate a problem, and genuinely lending a sisterly hand can be crucial. I'd probably have to think more on ways to address things like this in a positive manner.

Now, I suppose that everything I've written presupposes that women want gender equality, and I know that's not true, either, but I'd like to think that our organizations should support feminism as best they can.

So, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts. I think this is one facet of a larger topic rolling around in my head, that of how greek organizations remain relevant in a changing world, and what is really our mission in the year 2013.

You know, I've actually had this type of discussion with another sorority friend of mine (a Theta Phi Alpha Alumna who is also a doctoral student). She considers herself to be a feminist and I do not consider myself to be one. I think that, while the idea of sororities began to support women in a male-dominated society, they can be viewed by some as the opposite of a feminist movement. How many young women choose to join because they want to meet their future husband or attend parties in the hopes to be the next Stepford wife? Am I saying that is right? No. Do I believe that every woman who joins is like that? Of course not. I know there are many women out there who are strong and incredible leaders. Those are the women who prove that sororities are a great way to hone their skills. I'm a proud sorority woman--whatever that may mean to various people.

Great topic, DBB.

DeltaBetaBaby: "Now, I think most people around these parts know that a lot of the big SEC rushes depend on who you know before you ever set foot in the door, but to an outsider, doesn't it seem that you are judged on thirty minutes of conversation? And is the perception a problem, whether or not it is reality? Aren't we then turning off the potential PNM's (PPNM's?) who won't rush for fear of being judged thusly.

I had similar experiences with job interviews. The difference is that a PNM will stand a chance of changing any preconceived notions that a recommendation might have given, whereas if whomever reads your resume' and job application is not interested enough to extend you an interview, that is it. You don't have the chance for conversation.

I'm also unsure if serenades for social events still exist in a lot of places. They've been eliminated by my alma mater, but basically, women would dress in slutty clothing and go sing to the fraternities in hopes of getting on their social calendar. The men would respond by coming over and singing as well, but the obvious objectification only went on direction."

At FSU the sororities did not dress slutty when they serenaded. I am not sure if serenades still occur.

Sororities, like anything else, are not going to appeal to everyone. Those that are interested in joining a sorority(and are in the know) will do what is necessary to give themselves an advantage (or at least level the playing field), just as one would when seeking a desired job.I think it is about sisters supporting sisters, which extends to Panhellenic and Pan-Hellenic sisters as well.

This is a timely question as all our groups and NPC have been studying relevance for a number of years. What was relevant for our founders certainly has changed in some ways over the last 100 plus years. But are there core values that have remained the same but are just manifested indifferent ways in today's society? I think that's the key. How to we portray truth, honesty,integrity, sympathy, sisterhood today? The world has changed and so must we but while still supporting women in the ways they need today. Our founders were all looking for a support mechanism that wasn't readily available in their circles. I think we are today as well - but maybe in different ways for some.

What's wrong with having one of the reasons for joining a group be to meet appropriate nice and educated men who might make good husbands? I don't think wanting to be happily married with children makes you less of a woman. Isn't feminism supposed to be about giving women choices to do what they want in life?

OldRow,
I truly agree with you on that one. I never said it was wrong. Personally, I agree that college is a great place to meet your future mate because you both clearly have some things in common like wanting to further your education and (should he be a fraternity man) wanting to be philanthropic. I'm not saying this is bad in any way--so, I hope that's not how my statement came off. What I'm saying is that some people might argue that joining a sorority in order to eventually find a future husband is anything but, being about feminism. I'll admit that when I went to college, I already decided I would not marry a man who did not have a college degree. Does that make me a bad person or someone who wants a man to take care of me? No. That's just my preference.

It's important to look at what sororites are on a national level when it comes to things like this, because I feel like this sort of cultural thing varies greatly between chapters and campuses. Are there any solid numbers for average Panhellenic chapter size or average number of PNMs? A quick google search didn't really get me anything.

My small chapter at a small technical school very much supported and encouraged me to become a better woman. Before finding us, many of my chapter sisters (myself as well) were the "I don't like girls" type and had no interest in sororities before getting to campus. We all came to our senses and realized it wasn't women we disliked, but drama. In this way, my sorority has taught me to love other women and definitely how to understand/emphasize with/get along with them. I know we had some really great talks about problems women have in friendships with each other and were better off for it.

Meanwhile, a gorgeous SEC chapter of 500 girls who have had a gaggle of girlfriends since they were in elementary school probably faces different challenges. I would hope that all chapters aspire to live their values and the perceptions of others are incorrect, but I have no experience in that sort of large scale recruitment/chapter.

Very interesting perspective and something that I've never thought of before.

Isn't this always true, though, not just when Greek Life is involved?

I mean, I probably wouldn't go tanning for a job interview, but most women would probably wear some makeup and spend some time doing their hair. In fact, many women do this every single day. I think this is somewhat natural. For instance, women usually have longer hair than men - which may take more time to groom. Women may have to blow dry and straighten/curl/etc their hair, when men can usually just let their hair dry because it only takes five minutes to do so.

Women, in general, spend much more time grooming themselves than men. I'm sure most men who are attending fraternity rush parties haven't gone out and gotten their nails done or spent much time contemplating their outfits. However, sorority women (especially in the SEC or other competitive schools), are usually advised to spend lots of time planning outfits, possibly getting their nails done, getting their hair cut/colored, etc.

However, this is an everyday occurrence. Women, in general, are going to spend much more time getting ready for a date than men. And I think that it is somewhat of an equality issue. For me, personally, I grew up on a farm. Before I prepared for sorority recruitment, I didn't even know what a "cocktail" dress was when I was looking for something to wear on pref day. I'd love to throw my hair up in a ponytail, have no makeup on, wear jeans and a t shirt and show my true personality. However, I can't do that if I want to be judged on the same level as the girls who are decked out in Lily Pulitzer dresses and spent two hours on their hair. Men don't have to work nearly as hard to be on the same level as other men.

Back in the day - in the south, some schools only begrudgingly gave in to legislators in allowing women in to campus. Sometimes this was done by limiting the classes they could take - but also in limiting their access to campus. In the early 20th century - it would not have been seemly for a young lady to live alone or in a boarding house. Schools avoided having to deal with coeds by not allowing for dormitories for women. A woman who wanted to attend would need to find a family member living nearby. Two groups stepped up to address this - sororities and the Scottish Rite. The origins of the southern manor sorority houses are in providing comparable safe housing.

ETA: I think that some of the origins of the emphasis on rec letters and knowing someone in the house already comes from feeling like new members would be new roommates. In the case of the old sleeping porches - this might be true for the whole chapter.

Slutty Clothing
 

Totally resenting that comment.

Not sure what you school you went to nor where you got notion of "slutty clothing" for serenades, but, I have never heard of any such a thing. We serenaded fraternities. It was fun. And even in the god awful heat and humidity, we NEVER wore "slutty clothing." Never once did I feel objectified. We laughed, they laughed. What we supposed to wear burqas? After pledging in the summer's heat and monsoons, it is hot!

The women that I serenaded with are now members of prestigious neonatal clinics, lawyers, mothers, world travelers, decorated district teachers, professionals and more.

Slut Slamming
 

Your choice of words is less than eloquent and perpetuates the stereotypes that we work so hard to eliminate here. From my experience, what you mention above is rare. Just my experience. We always let a woman lead her own personal life in the chapter that I belonged to.

LOL - I have had several seniors not in the sororities tell me that they wish they had a big sister who supported them - or who had told them they were doing something stupid when they were a freshman.

I know!!! I love looking good and spend a lot of time on my appearance every day. I was that way before I ever joined and would be that way even if I were not in a sorority. It makes me feel good to look good.

Haha. I think a lot of girls can benefit from having someone tell them to watch out for things. There are so many new experiences and men who will prey on vulnerable freshmen and a girl can get really messed up before she knows it if she doesn't have good friends to help her out. I think it's more like having some guardian angels who have common interests and goals and want to watch out for you and your feelings so you don't get hurt.

Don't even kid yourself. LOTS of my guy friends are just as scrupulous with their tanning and workouts as any girl is with makeup. There is much, much, MUCH more pressure on men these days to maintain their appearances than there used to be.

DBB is not talking about a super naive freshman who just fell off the turnip truck and hasn't done anything below the waist who believes the guy when he says he just wants to go back to his room "to talk." We're talking about women who like sex, who find it physically and mentally pleasurable, and who don't feel they need to be pinned or someone's "girlfriend" to enjoy it. Some women can sleep with 100 guys and be the most mentally happy and stable girl out there. Some women can sleep with one guy and be completely f'ed up. Different strokes for different folks.

Some chapters are open minded about this, but some are not, and some are selective about it. In other words, if you sleep with a bunch of fraternity guys that's OK, but if you sleep with townies you're a whore and get your pin pulled.

Ah well, besides the fact that feminism is not equal to promiscuous, just like many women are surprised that we recommend they clean up their Facebook pages before recruitment - that kind of behavior would be frowned on in many circles and may hamper a woman's future choice of careers (in law, medicine, or education or if they need a security clearance, for example). It begs the question about their decision making process. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find it frowned upon on my campus.

In my experience, "slut-shaming" has little to no effect on that type, but the behavior in the extreme can be a sign of other problems, and it is good to have someone to talk to about it or even counseling. (Especially if we are talking about someone just starting college as a freshman?)

I thought by feminism - the discussion was to be about advances and leadership in the workplace or education?

I am a feminist. I've thought about this a lot. I don't think you can say the sorority movement is all one or the other. On the whole, though, I think the sorority movement is more feminist than not. In this case, I'm defining feminism as a movement which seeks equal opportunity for women, control over their lives and bodies equal to the control that men have, and freedom to define themselves outside of gender stereotypes.

The roots of the sorority movement are clearly feminist. The founders were doing something unusual by pursuing advanced education and they banded together to support each other.

Modern sororities are involved in lots of feminist work. They develop female leaders. They develop female friendships and female professional networks. They engage in philanthropy work that helps women. (Girl Scouts, Breast Cancer prevention, camping for girls) along with lots of philanthropies that help families and children. They also demand good grades and push their members on excelling academically, which furthers their professional careers. Programming in my chapter also furthered health awareness and professional development for sisters.

I totally agree, KDCat.

Yes -this. I also consider myself a feminist and am in a profession with very low participation of women. I have shocked a couple colleagues that didn't realize I was a "sorority chick." Many of the perception problems with sororities are a PR problem. We have often discussed that if all we promote are the beauty queens - that is all anyone is going to see. We do not advertise all the things we do.

Chapters do a lot now with leadership training and public relations, both for the chapter and the university. There is definitely networking both socially and career networking. In a chapter with good alumnae relationships, this extends into mentoring.

I'm actually pretty surprised by this, because you are ex-military, no? I'm not really sure why, but in my head, it seems like women in the military would be more likely to believe in equality of the sexes. Maybe I'm way off, though, this is just a gut reaction I haven't really thought through.

Oh, agreed. I just think that most non-Greek perceptions of sororities come from big schools.

This is true, but if you take a look at the sorority rush forum, I'd bet that better than 75% of threads are about what to wear, with about 15% on recs, and 10% on conversation, etc. (yes, I'm making these numbers up based on my perception, if anyone wants to check the math, it would be interesting). I don't think that a comparable forum on interviewing would look like that. In fact, the blog I read most often about interviewing (AAM) hardly ever touches on fashion/appearance.

You don't know what school I went to, but you resent a comment I made about what was SOP at my alma mater in the 1990's? :confused:

I'd consider feminism to be about lots of things, and I think that your point here maybe gets to the core of what I've been batting around in my head. On one hand, I think sororities do a lot for the things you mention: advances and leadership in the workplace or education.

However, I also think an important part of feminism is the elimination of violence against women and rape culture, and that's a harder assessment. So, let me see if I can sort this out:

I think there is a perception from non-Greeks that sororities contribute to rape culture. I think this is occasionally true in a very direct way, e.g. my serenades example, certain mixer themes, etc. HOWEVER, the obvious counterargument is that these types of things are probably very prevalent among non-greeks as well, on the campuses where they are most a problem. So, if your school has a "hookup culture", it has that whether you are Greek or not.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

It's also interesting that most of the stuff out there on sororities and rape culture mentions that sororities encourage promiscuity, which can be true, but in my experience, there's just as much of the opposite, as I mentioned above.

Again, I know none of this is unique to fraternities and sororities, but I am struggling with the ways in which this occurs.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

Rape culture is a problem across most college campuses. The Greek system, like many other aspects of college culture and institutions, has been formed by that culture and contributed to forming that culture. However, the Greek system also has the institutional structure in place to push back against rape culture. Our collegiate members are young, but as alumnae and alumni we can encourage our members to be aware of the culture. We can demand higher standards of behavior from our men and zero tolerance for bad behavior. We can educate our members on what rape culture is and why it needs to go.

I agree. Are we doing that?

I think we need to define what rape culture is, and what responsibility is.

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

My experience about this is from the view of a fraternity guy during the era when feminism was young: the '70s, but I think that it may be of interest to some. We need to know where we were to know where we are.

When I was a Pledge, our school still made all of the women sign in and out of the dorms in the evening (much like Emily Dickenson College in Animal House), and the sororities were not housed because they needed to be 'kept safe'. There were other restrictions and assumptions implied by the In Loco Parentis attitude as well.

But within a few years, this had all been swept aside and everyone was treated equally. I'm not saying that all was perfect, only that there was general equality between the genders on the part of the school.

This change was largely caused by the women themselves. The female campus leadership, the most active and visible women, and the women who were willing to help out whenever the school asked for a favor, were almost always sorority women, so they had influence. These 17 through 21 years olds changed a lot of ossified attitudes of self-important men.

Many of the sorority women that I knew, would not have considered themselves Feminists while others would, but in matters of equality like these, they were all together.

They would never put what happened back then as "They all stood together to ....". They would think that that would be making too much of it. They just knew what was right. They choose their sisterhood. They chose to live their lives according to their own principles. They choose to be treated as equals, so they were.

I don't think that feminism means that I need to go out and burn my bra on the quad or that I can't enjoy a nice manicure.

I like to think of it like the Nike insoles in my ColeHaan pumps?

If you look at how far things have come in the last hundred years, it's pretty surprising. Most of my girls don't realize.

Some Examples:

100 years ago at Cal - they were very progressive in that they let women take chemistry - but they had to sit behind a screen so they would not distract the men.

In the 20s(?) Texas agreed to allow women as students - but didn't build any dorms, so sororities and the Scottish Rite built housing.

At about that same time, southern schools started allowing women to take classes, but there were limitations since the only really acceptable professions were nursing or teaching or maybe accounting in your father's business. The chemistry building built at Texas at that time had no ladies rooms (except a small one by the office for the secretaries) - because they didn't expect to need them.

Chemistry buildings built at UGA and Cal in the 1960s would also be built without facilities for women in the research sections.

I have a friend who - in the 60s - received a scholarship offer that actually includes in the letter that she should not Accept it so that a deserving young man could make better use of it? She would go on to be one of the first women to get a degree in chemistry on another campus instead.

At that same time, women on my campus had to wear heavy raincoats over sweatsuits in 90 degree heat to walk to PE classes on the other side of campus so as not to be disruptive? (Note: no changing facilty for women by the PE center?) They also had to sign out of the dorm or get a letter of permission from their parents to go to the lake with a friend on the weekend.

And last summer - Iran fired many tenured professors in fields they decided were "unsuitable" for women.

So Yes, I still think that we have an obligation to give a step up to the little sisters behind us.

ETA: even if all you can do is provide a good example...

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

Unfortunately, like many people in her age group, she probably equates feminism with man-hating and overentitlement (gender feminism) instead of what it really is, equal opportunities to prove yourself (equity feminism).

I've known women of every generation who are without a doubt feminists in terms of their support for the rights and equality of women, but who have not wanted to be called "feminist" because of the connotations and baggage that they perceive go with the term.

Yes, feminism still recognizes the strengths and differences of each gender (or trans or bi - for that matter.) As a feminist though, I don't think that she should have to put up with sexual harassment or hazing because her chosen profession is historically male dominated.

You sure have a knack for finding fault with everything I say. Why is that?

I don't think I have had many conversations with you at all, so I'm not sure why you perceive that? You sound a little defensive. I really just wonder what you think feminism is since you are so sure you aren't a feminist.

Hey, hey, ladies. No spats. THis is an interesting thread and I don't think we want to have it shut down.

The term "feminism" has a bad connotation for some people. I don't think of it negatively but some people see bra burners, Gloria Steinam, etc when they hear the word. But then I thought Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was a little conservative back in the day. So some people don't want that term used to describe them - though if they knew the definition, they would support it.

My point exactly. Feminism isn't a bad thing. People have tried to turn into something ugly when it isn't. Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine.

Webster's defines feminism as either
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Obviously, the confusion comes when one confuses the feminist ideal with a particular political movement. Much the same as one could be a Republican but not agree with the entire party platform.

Someone asked upthread:

WHAT IS RAPE CULTURE?
In a rape culture, people are surrounded with images, language, laws, and other everyday phenomena that validate and perpetuate, rape. Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.”

And, there are those who truly believe the sexes are not equal. I know my SIL probably would fall into this group as a believer in patriarchy. There aren't that many women that fall into that group, though.

Not at all the experiences I had in a more-than-20-year military career. I was the first woman in my career field, and to this day I don't think there have been more than about two dozen women in the field. I found mostly respect, and the men apparently knew that I didn't get where I was by being the "weaker sex." I earned my place, and managed to put those who didn't believe me in their proper places.

I'm not sure I'm a feminist, but I've never allowed some perception of male- or female-dominated activities to interfere with where I wanted to be. Today, I don't join organizations that restrict membership. I even debated with myself whether I was being untrue by retaining my DG membership, but DG is a part of who I am.

So, too, is the school. I would not have been a DG at some SEC school, or a big state school with huge chapters ... but neither are those the schools I would have chosen to attend. I attended a small, intensive school that had only recently eliminated its women's college, but because I never questioned my right to be there, neither did anyone else.

When I started to identify as a feminist* after beginning my Women's Studies courses, I did take a long hard look at my Greek organization and what it was doing to create strong, moral, outstanding women for my community. I found myself surrounded by dozens of them and so I learned that even with the culture that being "engaged" with fraternity men's causes, we were still leaving much better than the average woman on campus.

My chapter also took women that leaned toward being headstrong and I feel that we benefited from that more than many other chapters on campus because we were not so quick to "buy in" on the stereotypical concepts thrown at us.

My first sets of littles are some of the strongest feminists I know, along with a great deal of my pledge sisters. I'm very happy to have "grown up" within the chapter. But I do wonder about other institutions' chapters when I see the frenzies that are created on these boards from time to time. I'm not sure how universal my experience is.

*Although sometimes I lean more toward womanist due to the lack of inclusion of women of color.

That sounds like the definitions of hazing that are stretchier than Grandma's underwear.

EXACTLY my point. You shouldn't have to feel that way. Many of the kind of feminists that I don't like go on and on about smash the patriarchy, but are so sheltered from the real world that they would run screaming the other way if they actually had to talk to (OMG) a person of color.

Actually, you have had conversations with me and they have always ended in you being rude or finding fault with whatever I say. This is a great example. Later on you stated, "Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine." Why must I define anything for you? How do you know that I do not know the definition? When I earned my second master's degree, I also earned a certificate of advanced study in women's studies with a great deal of my courses being in feminism (to include black feminist theories). I think I have a pretty good idea of what feminism is about. Did I say it was bad? No. I said that I do not identify with being a feminist. Now, does that answer suffice or are you going to assume I am uneducated on the topic and have no clue what I am talking about?

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I am aware of what feminism is about. I know about rape culture (unfortunately, I actually took an entire class on rape--depressing course). The question was about feminism and sororities. I gave my opinion as to how some people, not saying me, could attempt to answer the question.