LSAT's
 

I did do a search and got back nada...so here goes.

Anyone taken the LSAT's and if so suggestions on how to study for it?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmaureen...ull-ever-make/

I really cannot emphasize enough that law school is not a good idea in this economy. I wish you the best if you choose to pursue it.

Thanks sister.

I'm not sure if I would actually go, but attending has been a dream since I was a kid. I would just like to take the LSAT's and actually see how I do. My friend went to law school (in AZ) but it took her forever to get admitted because while her LSAT score wasn't low (in my book), 145 I think, it was too low for the state schools. If that makes sense.

145 is really terrible. My suggestion would be to pay for the Kaplan course.

You still need a few points before even most T4 schools will consider you.

Agree with all of the above...law school is a dicey choice at this time unless you just want to go for the intellectual exercise & have nothing better on which to spend your money. But if you are determined, I also agree w/the advice to invest in the Kaplan course. It was the best $1k I ever spent (I had 2 kids & worked full time when I took the course so I needed the discipline of a course rather than self-study...it helped me increase my score dramatically & I ended up w/a full tuition & books scholarship).

145 is not a great score. It is below average. And keep in mind that a large percentage of people who take the LSAT don't even attend law school (myself included). Therefore, a 145 can look even worse if the only people applying to law school have scores way above that mark.

I can only speak for myself, but I perform better if I study and prep on my own. I'm actually doing that now with the CPCUs. However, some people need the structure of a class. Your best bet is to truly analyze how you work personally, and figure out the best way to study.

My one suggestion would be to give yourself plenty of time to study (at least a few months), and work out a studying schedule. I told myself that I would study for at least 5 hours every week, and I kept a calendar where I recorded my hours. Most weeks I studied more than that.

If you do take a course and they provide you with books, don't be afraid to purchase extra study materials. I bought quite a few books, including 'LSAT for Dummies,' which actually helped me a great deal.

I won't lie to you.. The test is NO FUN. It was the most mentally draining test I've ever taken. You have to be able to switch your brain from one topic to the next very quickly. Practice, practice, practice! Take timed practice tests, and pretend as though it's the real deal.

As I said before, I didn't end up going to law school. After the LSAT and prior to applying, I did some research about law school, the percentage of students who finish, and the percentage of students who finish and actually end up practicing law. The last statistic is surprisingly low. I won't discourage you from attending, but it's a lot of money (just the LSATs and applications alone can cost a fortune) and you should make sure that this is what you really want. I found out that studying law and practicing it are two completely different things.

I ultimately decided to get my Paralegal Certificate from Northeastern, and I worked in law offices for about a year. I hated it. Nothing about it made me want to go to law school.

Again, I don't want to discourage you, and I don't know if you already have some experience in the field, but I urge you to do your research and think everything through entirely! Law school is a huge commitment.

I used to be a Kaplan instructor. I would suggest that you take one of the free practice tests online, or get a book and take a practice test. Time it and score it - no interruptions, and resist the urge to peek at the answers. Then figure out what you're weakest at and work on that. If you can learn from workbooks and are disciplined, there's no real reason to take the course. The Logic Games Bible series is a big help if that's your downfall. (The games are the easiest to improve.) The other sections are a bit harder to pull up your score.

Law schools put a lot of weight on your undergraduate GPA in admissions. If it's not good, it will severely limit your options.

I second the advice to take practice tests and see what you're working with before you decide how to proceed. I am not a lawyer, but my husband is...I can't warn you away from law school strongly enough if you're not a) 100% sure you absolutely want to practice law and/or b) able to get into a very very top school. We have an insurmountable amount of law school debt now, and it's extremely unlikely in this market that he will ever make enough to compensate for it.

Second and third on the "Don't go to law school." I am a lawyer. The market for attorneys is terrible right now. Over half of last year's class did not get a job within 9 months of graduation. Small and mid-size firms are contracting right now. New graduates are competing with experienced attorneys for anything that comes open. Starting wages are too low to make the burden of law school debt worth it. If you ever wanted to do anything else, go do that.

If you can get into a top school and/or graduate at the top of your class at a second tier school, it might be worth it.

It might also be worth it, if you have an in (ie. your mom or dad owns a firm) or a business plan (ie. you are ready to start your own firm and have a plan for getting clients).

Region might make a difference, too. Finding a job is harder in some parts of the country than in others.

And one great thing about being a lawyer is you can always go solo. Some of my classmates who have done this have done quite well for themselves.

What would be a good score on a practice one?

Good to know. I couldn't find any indicators on what was good on line.

Just to give you some idea as to what you should be looking at in terms of scores by school:

http://www.gettingtogradschool.com/L...ol_Top_150.htm

http://www.lsatprepcourse.com/law.htm

Pay attention to the percentage employed at graduation, as well. You want that number to be as high as possible.

You also want to ask around your target legal community to see which schools have an edge in your market. Employers have strong preferences for certain schools in certain markets. You want to look around to make sure that your target market hires from your school in substantial numbers.

Go pay a visit to Top Law Schools and their forums...you can really learn a lot from those. I'd also recommend the 'bibles' (logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comp)

I have now decided the waiting for the results is the worst part of the LSATs.

Actually, the worst part about the LSAT is that it is your gateway to spending six figures on a law school education and not ever being able to pay it off because the market for lawyers is terrible for grads from all tiers of all law schools. I hope you've got a full ride wherever you're going. Or you've just decided to be willfully blind to the facts and statistics out there that law school is the worst possible graduate/professional program out there right now.

Yes, I sound like a Debbie Downer, but I really hope you'll reconsider for your own sake.

You're being realistic. It's that bad out there. Only 55% of the Class of 2011 has long term, legal employment. Do anything other than law school.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com...than-expected/

And don't be fooled into thinking that you won't have debt even if you do have a full tuition scholarship. Bills don't pay themselves, and I'm not a fan of being homeless. So although I didn't have to pay for tuition, I've still had to take loans to make up for the fact that I didn't have a full time job anymore.

I'm graduating a semester late because I had a baby, but only a couple of my friends who graduated in May have jobs at this point. Most people I know who do have jobs are not working as attorneys.

Your position is completely wrong when it comes to the T14 assertion since the recession and its subsequent fallout, but I'll agree with if all of these factors are present. ;) Law school is not a safe bet for anyone unless you're going for free, have a hefty trust fund, and have no intent of practicing law for a salary when you graduate. And if you have that kind of money, go play around Europe for three years rather than sitting in a classroom learning how to read cases.

ETA: If these warnings save even ONE person from a lifetime of being saddled with an impossible six figure student debt, I'll keep posting the very true doom and gloom associated with a law school education today. Law school is fun, and practicing can be great, no doubt about it. But it is the worst investment you can make with your life these days because the cost is astronomical and payoff is very unlikely-- and if I can talk just ONE of you out of making that mistake, I think I will have done a very good deed.

There have been a lot of threads on GC, maybe not specifically about the LSATs, but about the state of the legal profession and how maybe it's not such a good idea to go and rack up a ton of debt. It seems that, unless you have an ace in the hole like a family firm to work for or a low-cost school, it's not the golden ticket to wealth it may have seemed when you were growing up.

The Top 14 may be a safer bet (everyone I know from college who went to a Top 14 is employed at a top firm but most of them graduated law school in 2006 so they were not as affected by the recession as younger folks might be), but all but a handful of those schools are in the most expensive areas in the country. If you ended up at one of those places, which isn't likely, you could have $15-20K of living expenses a year (a conservative estimate, really). Also, I believe the ABA prevents you from working more than 20 hours a week during your 1L year.

In other words, even if you get a "full ride," you could still end up 75-80K in debt and that's assuming you don't have any undergrad debt. That's on top of uprooting your life (unless there's a great law school close enough to avoid moving). Do you love the law that much, or is this more about making more than you do as a teacher?

ETA: I wish GeekyPenguin was around more. I think she posted about her LSAT/law school experience a lot and doing a search of her posts might be helpful for you.

That is how I sometimes feel about my Bachelors and even Masters degree. I just got a note with my balance and I will be paying the same amount in interest as the loan itself! Sometimes school isn't worth it, but there are jobs that you can't even have without it.

I am closely involved with many, many graduates of T20 and T10 schools who have graduated in the past 3 years. A lot of them graduated with great grades, law review, and are doing doc review for a living because following the 2L summer clerkships, the economy tanked, their offers were revoked or they were no-offered entirely due to economic factors. Or they never got that summer clerkship because hiring dried up completely after the massacre of the summer classes in 2009. There are a lot of very smart, very capable grads of top schools out there who can't find work.

I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you over who knows more graduates of top law schools. LOL. You're welcome to your assertions, as I am to mine, but I urge all would-be lawyers to actually review and research the stats (which are widely available via a google search) out there. The numbers speak for themselves. Law school is no longer a good investment. Tuition is inflated, jobs are scarce, and the schools are overstating their job placement stats.

I have to jump in to mention that even if you are the lucky one out of 500+ super qualified applicants to land that clerkship, the future isn't very bright. Many end up working somewhere for free with the hope of eventually getting a paying job.

*sigh* You know, I am intelligent enough to weight the risks myself without 8 million people telling me it is a bad idea. Also I am getting really tired of the "in this economy" and "now" things. Yes I would be entering next year God willing, but it takes three years to get your degree, possibly 4 if I get into a joint degree program I'm looking at. I'm not going to base long term decisions on what the current finical clusterfuck is.

That doesn't sound intelligent at all, but hey, if you have six figures to blow on an education that will never pay off, go for it. Dream big.

Isn't the whole dream big thing what we tell a whole bunch of high schools students who could never afford college in the first place so that they will do what they need to make sure they can go? And what exactly is "paying off"? I'm not one of those people who want to go to law school because I think I'm going to be racking in a six figure salary the second I pass the bar. I want to do it because it is good work that needs to be done, and I'll do what I have to to make sure I can do that work. The whole six figures for an education that will never pay off applies to a undergrad degree as well, but we still encourage people to go to college. Yes it is a big ass risk, and yes, I am scared shitless about figuring out how I iwll pay for it. But I'm not going to let something I have no power over stop me from doing something if I feel it is the right thing for me to do.

If this is something you want to do, then go for it! People discouraging you to this extent is quite ridiculous, in my opinion. It's one thing to warn you and to tell you to truly think about it before you go to school... it's another to say that you virtually have no chance of making it, and imply that you're a sucker for even applying.

The thing about a law degree is that you don't have to practice law. Crazy concept, I know. But there are other professions that don't necessarily require a law degree, but having one can definitely help. I see that every day working in the insurance industry.

So again, if you've weighed the pros and cons, and you understand the risks, and you still know that this is REALLY what you want to do, then do it.

And sorry I'm double-posting, but this was taking it a bit too far, I think.

Wow, you are starting to sound like a Bitter Betty. Did someone pee in your coffee?

If Psi U MC Vito has done his research, which it appears he has, and understands the risks, then why can't he apply to a top law school? If he can get into a Stanford, Columbia, Yale, or Harvard--why not? He's not applying to Cooley with a 145 and a 2.5 from Jarvis Christian College and thinking he's going to roll up at Sullivan Cromwell, after all. Like I said before, the attorneys I know who went to those schools are all employed in their fields. To them, the debt's been worth it.

My skepticism in my earlier post was geared towards the OP, who seems really unprepared for the law school process in general, and might be looking to law solely due to its perceived status as a lucrative career. If you didn't go to a top undergrad and are prepared--GPA and LSAT wise--for a top tier law school, or if you don't have a guaranteed job waiting for you then, yes, your point may be valid.

The jobs aren't coming back. The industry has undergone a structural shift and it's not going back to where it was when the recession ended. My current firm is outsourcing simple discovery work that was previously done by new associates. (review of electronic documents, medical records, etc.) to India. Corporations have found way to reduce legal costs and will maintain those cost-cutting measures. Insurance companies have instituted strict bill review policies and severely cut the amount of cases that are going to outside counsel or being litigated. Many small and mid-size firms are closing or struggling to survive. Governments are cutting hiring because of low tax revenues.

Legal hiring will pick up somewhat, but it will not go back to pre-recession levels. The schools are currently producing 2 graduates for every full time job. When this is all over there will still be around 1.5 new graduates for every new job.

That doesn't even begin to address the lifestyle issues with the practice of law. Burnout is high.

If you want to go to law school in that environment, I wish you the best. It is not a choice that I would make. I really enjoyed law school and I enjoyed practice when I started. I don't enjoy it now.

The ABA has a database with the reported employment rate for every law school. It's sortable by percentage of graduates employed.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/

:rolleyes:

Vito seems to be a smart guy, capable of assessing his resources, forecasting what he would want to do with a law degree, identifying the opportunities there might be for doing what he wants to do and making informed choices as to the risks and benefits.

The rest of us, on the other hand, are not in a position to assess any of those things. At all. So what doesn't sound very intelligent to me is passing judgment on the intelligence of his decisions.

Believe it or not, it is possible to go to a law school that is not in the T14 or T20 (or even T50), not incur crushing amounts of debt and find a good job after law school. I know enough people who have done it lately to know that it can be done.

Yes, the job market has been much tighter in recent years. But not everyone wants the job with the big firm in the big city (with the big expectation of big billable hours). And the degree to which the market has been tighter varies from region to region of the country.

Could it be challenging? Of course. But it can and does work out for lots of people.

Since I posted above, I will clarify that I personally am not saying that people should not go to law school. I do agree with trying to be realistic about it, though.

I've enjoyed my time in school, and am not sure that I would change the decision I made before I enrolled if I could go back in time. But I honestly did not expect that I would have as much debt as I do, given that I am on a full tuition scholarship. I have really good grades, great job experience from my previous career, but I didn't get the lucrative summer jobs that I thought would take the edge off. Those summer jobs are, for the most part, no longer reality. For personal reasons I didn't foresee when I applied to law school, I wasn't able to work part time during the year as I planned on, except for one semester. So I have debt that I didn't plan on. And, I honestly thought the economy would be different by the time I graduated. It's not. :( That being said, there are still jobs. They simply are not as plentiful. I worry most about the person who is in the bottom 50% and doesn't have the social aptitude to network.

Plan to do well on the LSAT. Plan to work your ass off in school to be sure you are ranked well. Plan to scrimp and save on day-to-day stuff. Plan to network and get to know the attorneys in the area you plan to practice. Know the market you are getting into, which may mean going to a lower-ranked school if it is more respected and has better connections in the town you want to live in. Plan to be unemployed until after the bar exam results are published, which means a few months without a paycheck after graduation. If you are realistic, and understand that the jobs that there once were will never be around again, that's all that one can ask.

I would, however, strongly recommend anyone who tests poorly to forego law school. If you cannot handle the stress of an exam, and you don't have a parent's law firm to work in after you graduate, you are going to be in trouble.

Nothing to add to this conversation except that when I was researching the Michigan Supreme candidates for the upcoming election, I noted that one of them attended Cooley. Should I not vote for him?

He's probably not a great legal scholar. He may be a great judge, though. Some people are really good at cutting through technicalities to the heart of a problem. He may also have political biases that you like. Ie. He is more or less pro-business, pro-worker, anti-abortion, pro-GLBT rights, whatever.

Wow. You know all of that without knowing anything but where he went to school? You're kind of coming off like a school snob.

Here in Oklahoma, one of the brightest justices we've ever had, Justice Opala, went to a then marginally accredited (and now still T4) school and did just fine. There's nothing magic in the water at higher ranked schools which makes people brilliant scholars. They just accept based on LSATs and GPAs--neither of which are 100% accurate methods to pinpoint the best legal minds.

I went to an evening program at a T4 school and every one of my classmates in my social circle had no problem finding jobs or doing what they always wanted to do anyhow--hang up a shingle.

Not all of us are even slightly interested in big law.

If he was straight out of school, maybe you'd have something--and I'm not even sold on that. The difference between the actual instruction going on at various law schools of different tiers is not all that different.

This is someone who likely has a very lengthy resume though. To simply assume that because he graduated from Cooley, he's not a great legal scholar is assuming an awful lot without really any evidence to back it up.

And which I agree with Kevin is bunk. I know morons who went to Harvard. I know very good legal scholars who went to schools that don't make the top 100 list.

I work with one of those lawyers who thinks that all the "legal scholars" went to T20 schools. His reliance on this snobbish theory (and it is snobbery with him) has proven unfortunate more than once.