This is the first I've heard about any feud between the NPHC and APO/GSS family. Maybe it's because I don't attend a HBCU, but I am an APO Brother. I can only speak for ECU, though. We have both APO and a GSS chapter here and the "Divine Nine" are represented here (except for Iota Phi Theta) and we seem to co-exist peacefully.

Oh boy Rain Man...hopefully this thread will not get flames all over it!

Before I start I want to say that I am speaking only for myself and for my chapter, not for anyone else. Every chapter has its own experiences.

Having said that, from my experience it is been because Gamma Sigs carry themselves as an African-American based sorority on campus. We Gamma Sigs know that our sorority was not founded by black women alone.

Also, a lot of the things we do aren't looked at as "original" such as our call, "Wee-Oop" (which is grounds alone for raised eyebrows) our handsigns and our colors. In short, we are viewed as a fake sorority who has nothing better to do but copy what other sororities have already. I have heard that numerous times and in a nutshell, that is the problem. On some campuses, if you are a Gamma Sig it isn't even feasible for you to pursue a sorority in the Nine.

Now my response to this is simple. Everything I do as a Sig, everything that Sigs do means something to us. We aren't fake, we're not trying to be like anyone else. We are who we are. We are a sorority whose main focus is service, and it is in our hearts in minds with everything we do. When I wear my letters I wear them with pride. I do the best service that I can do because the people that I serve deserve it. That's my explanation everytime I get asked why Gamma Sigma Sigma is the way it is on my campus. We are supportive of our greeks and in turn, we get invited to many greek events and are asked to participate. Trust, it was not like that in the beginning, but my chapter continues to do their required service and we just be ourselves. We've earned the respect of the greek community even though we're not "greek" by NPC/NPHC standards.

Another thing, it is not the same on every campus. Every GSS chapter doesn't have a line, or stroll, or do things of that sort. Some chapters are all-black, others all-white, others a mix, I can go on and on. The point here is, no matter what, every last one of them is a sister and I will be there for them. I will serve with them and I will support them.

Sorry bout the long rant...but I always welcome questions if I didn't cover everything in this post!

In Service,
gamma_girl52
Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority

RM,

I NEVER knew there was "tension". I mean in college (undergrad and grad, both major HBCUs in the south), APhiO really wasn't an "issue", so there wasn't any "tension".

I don't know what's going on now, cause I am basically "removed" from both universities as far as campus life is concerned. I am only a alumnus who "gives back" and an active member in alumni affairs on the local level...

Um, interesting topic, though...

See, you do learn alot from these boards... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

i think that really sums up the reason why there is tension between the two. i know on my campus there was a great deal of discussion when the organizations surfaced because it seemed like people who had tried to pledge NPHC and didn't went ggs or apo and there was some rivalry there. the apo's did not make any friends with the omegas by calling themselves a-phi-ques. they alson wore camos and boots painted gold, so, of course there was talk about that. and the call was an obvious point of contention with Delta's and AKA'a alike. so, it was alot of bad blood. especially considering when they preached service but took on alot of the trappings of NPHC orgs (stepping, probating, calling, etc.)and the arguement is that NPHC doesn't own any of these things, but, they are traditions that we hold dear.

If you are a predominately Caucasian and coed chapter of APO, chances are you will coexist very well with NPHC. What about if you are a Black APO/GSS chapter that shares the yard with NPHC?

A few questions, if you don't mind dstbrat:

- What school did you attend as an undergrad?

- If all the NPHC orgs proclaim they are service orgs as opposed to social orgs, but they also step, have calls, chants, etc., what would be the problem with 25/52 following suit if they are non-NPHC service orgs?

- Do you feel that only NPHC orgs should or be entitled to step, have calls, chants, etc.? How would you feel if SAEs, Sig Eps, Chi Os, Pi Phis, Lambda Chis, began to take on the NPHC social aspect in their orgs?

- In short, is the historically racial aspect truly the dividing line between NPHC and 25/52?

MG73

Interesting. I, too, had no clue there was animosity among NPHC groups and APO & GSS. I DON'T think it was because of the racial make-up of the organization. Most of the greeks on the yard when I was in school either had no clue APO is a "white" organization or they did & didn't care. There was a little tension on my campus because of the things dstbrat mentioned. In addition, for whatever reason, some members of the APO chapter (we didn't have a GSS chapter) could not or would not understand why they were not allowed in NPHC meetings.

I didn't mind that they wanted to step, but regarding wearing gold boots, calling themselves a-phi-ques, using a hand sign that was very similar to a Sigma hand sign, being a co-ed fraternity (although the chapter was male) that had female sweethearts, among other things that are readily associated with an NPHC group, gave the impression, to me and others that mentioned it to me, that they were confused. Some spoke out, as RM does, about the elitist attitude of the NPHC groups yet they were emulating some of the things that we did. Sadly, they were brushed off as a joke by the non-greeks and most greeks because of it.

[This message has been edited by 12dn94dst (edited April 19, 2001).]

my campus didnt have any alpha phi omega's or gamma sigma sigmas, but i can speak on a time when when some of my sorors had "issues" with gamma sigma sigma about 5 years ago....

i dont think that there is tension between the NPHC and the 25/52 family as a whole. To my understanding (and from what I've noticed), the only chapters that get beef from "us" are those that are predominately black.

Now, (and someone please feel to correct me if i'm just all wrong..) the predominately black chapters are the ones that have adopted such things as a call (wee-oop), a handsign (looks just like sgrho's, except the hand faces outwards instead of inwards), strolls..... these are things that are not official as far at the the (inter)national body is concerned.

and i'm pretty sure that these things have very special meanings to the members, but some of us dont understand (me being one of them) why if particular chapters wanted to take on these (historically NPHC) traditions, would they choose things that would APPEAR to be a combination of all of our stuff (not implying that it is!).

that's the ONLY reason why i think tension exists between the groups (just being honest!).

In an effort to avoid controversy, I will be as diplomatic as possible. My frat has a serious problem with people calling themselves A-Phi-Q. Your org has no right to appropriate the letter Q. Omega is not the greek letter for Q so you have no historical basis for using it. It is blatant biting. Gold Boots? Again, no historical basis and blatant biting. I can assure you that no one other than an Omega would dare walk my campus in Gold Boots. Some APO's have even dared top brand themselves with an Omega. What is that about? Needless to say, that APO had alterations done to his brand. How can a call or hand sign, line dances, probate shows, lines with #'s, crossing jackets, mean something to an org when it is not practiced by 75% of the membership,and has no historical basis? To end whatever beef that you believe exists, return to Your Roots and Your Purpose and stop imitating the NPHC in ways that are not flattering.

NPHC vs. 25/52 Family-Why the animosity?
 

Over the last nine years I have wondered why there seems to be, for lack of a better word, "tension" between the NPHC orgs and the two major service GLOs, Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma. Most of the NPHC orgs proclaim that they are service organizations. So is APO and GSS (collectively referred to as the 25/52 family b/c of the years they were founded). Is the fact that one group is historically black and one isn't the major factor? I ask this because I have heard from numerous Gamma Sigs that they are heavily hated on by NPHCers on their yards for reasons unknown. As far as frat, well AFAIC they hold their own. BTW, I am referring primarily to HBCU schools, or schools with a predominately black 25/52 chapter.

In 1996, our National Membership and Extension Chair went so far as to mail a letter to all nine NPHC organization in an attempt to bridge the gap between APO and the NPHC--only two sororities responded--I have copies of both letters.

It seems to me that the major difference is that the NPHC caters primarily to the black community and the 25/52 family does not. I saw on one NPHC website a subtle condescending reference to 25/52, in that "some GLOs do not have memberships that caters to just women or just men. They just serve the general population." What the... is that supposed to mean? After reading numerous rude and nasty posts from NPHCers in various 25/52 guestbooks, I have to ask you all, What is the real problem?

Match Game '73

Hmm...interesting discussion this is turning out to be!

Sister PrettyPoodle6, I understand what you are saying. That is the problem right there, it's not that the issue is that we step and stroll and everything, I think it's the way we're doing it.

Now I guess I could sit here and talk all day about how those signs and calls are of no disrespect to any of the organizations of the Nine, but I don't think that would help. The issue here is originality. If we used different things that did not look so close then perhaps we would not have problems. Better yet, perhaps if we didn't do it at all, that would solve the problem too.

It's not a secret that neither Alpha Phi Omega or Gamma Sig was founded to be this way, hence DoggyStyle's statement of "return to your roots and purpose instead of copying the NPHC". I ask, so if it's not practiced by the majority of the organization, then it should not be done? I can list other organizations that were not founded by African-Americans that do the same thing we do. True, not every chapter in GSS is the same as my chapter, but that doesn't mean that I can't still do it. The roots and purpose of my sorority is service, friendship and equality and I adhere to those. I feel where you're coming from, but I had to disagree on that.

The thing that I'm seeing is that it really depends on the campus and the greeks there...because my chapter has not had any altercations with any of the greeks on campus (other than being called out at a probate) and we're generally respected overall. Yes, we still get looks, but you learn to get past that and focus on what you should be doing and that is service to the community.

My question then is this-

For all of the defense to the social behavior of APO and GSS on HBCU campuses taht this thread suggests goes on- what is the point? How did it come to be and if it was not begun out of emulating the nPHC orgs, then out of what? Many of the characteristics sited (probates, stepping, strolling, lines, line number, calls, signs...) while unofficial are social hallmarks of NPHC orgs. and we all know that. They are common throughout chapters throughout the country. They are not chapter specific and for that reason are thought of as distict to the orgs. If what a chapter of APO or GSS is doing in that reagard

1. is only taking place on HBCU campusses or in chapters that are predominantly African-American
2. are mirroring actions of NPHC orgs (whether the sign, call etc. seem to mimic someone else's or not) and
3. Are not something that would be understood or recognized by a chapter of the SAME ORG. on another campus then it would be very easy for an onlooker to feel as though it is an attempt to copy NPHC orgs.

Now that is not to say that another group who has done all those things from the start would not get the cold shoulder from NPHC greeks if it is a greek letter org os African Americans but when it is a more select group of a much larger antional body who participate in it like this has been described it looks even nore like people in places heavily populated with NPHC orgs are trying to emulate what they see.

**Note- this is all news to me and I am just trying to understand how these chapters even came to have a call and sign, etc. in the fisrt place. I went to a PWI where they were of no consequence to the NPHC as they were predominantly white chapters. The school was very racialized and only African Americans who did not generally associate themselves with other African American students on campus joined Fats or Sororities outside of the NPHC at all.***

i suppose my yard is a bit of an enigma because we are a large state majority institution. so i suppose that chapter functions as one would on an hbcu campus. the gss clearly had a chip on their shoulders about being considered as "real" greeks. they would routinely come to nphc forums and create controversy. to respond to rainman, i think in other regions of the country, nphc organizations are having discussions about who is entitled to our traditions. especially with newer ethnic fraternities and sororities who step and stroll and call and all of those other things. so, i don't think this arguement is not unique to apo and gss.

Thank you for your post, DoggyStyle

I will try to address your concerns, point by point.

As far as our org having no right to appropriate the term "Q", That is a VERY moot point. For the record, there is a Black Christian fraternity/sorority called Alpha Nu Omega, founded at Morgan State in 1988, and they address themselves as A-N-Qs. Many Black Americans, Greek or not, refer to the letter Omega as Q. I would venture to say that it is an aid to distinguish Omega from Omicron. If our org was to abolish the term A-Phi-Q as a means to address ourselves as of tommorow morning, chances are the Black community, Greek or not, would still address us as A-Phi-Q. So while I understand your point, your argument IMHO is rather weak.

Gold boots? I honestly cannot comment on that since I have never wore gold boots or seen any bruh in person wear them--I'm not really a boot wearer to begin with. I have, however, twirled a blue and gold cane. My reason, I find it to be a unique talent, it is often a therapeutic stress reliever, and no matter what anyone says, no one has any right to regulate or legislate a TALENT, which is all it boils down to. I have dueled against Kappas in cane twirling, and I hold my own very well--though I gotta work on the 2-cane routine http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif But I digress.

Brands? Again, can't comment since I do not have one, nor do I encourage such a practice for my own personal reasons.

As far as APQ/GSS biting off NPHC, let's be honest. None of our founders did any of the superficial stuff being done today, so as far as going back to our roots, as you say, my attitude is this, Either we all do it, or none of us do it. But the NPHC has no right to legislate or regulate what other orgs are doing, whether NPHC orginated it or not. I have not heard any complaints about this being used against Latino(a) organizations, so what I feel is a heavy dose of double standards, where one non-NPHC org can do it but another can't. Let's play it fair or not at all.

Thanx again

Match Game '73

I think the reason why there is so much tensions is because the 25/52 orgs are the major non-NPHC orgs with a large minority representation, and an old minority representation.

The first Alpha Phi Omega chapter at an HBCU was at Johnson C. Smith University (Delta Phi) on April 17, 1947, while the first Gamma Sigma Sigma Chapter was at Southern University (Alpha Delta) in 1963. While both organizations picked up numerous chapters at HBCUs in the 70s, I would venture to say that similar arguments such as ours were going on two generations ago. So this is not a new problem, this is an old one that has never been resolved, but revisited over and over again. I think the NPHC, while I understand their concern for wanting to hold on to something near and dear, it is a moot point.
As far as to the sororities complaining that GSS is biting off their colors, calls, etc., I think the root issue is that GSS does this period, and they are not NPHC. Because even if the sign did not resemble SGRho, the sororites would invariably nitpick and find something else that remotely resembled something of the sororities. I had a Delta approach me and complain that GSS was using their colors (Maroon/White vs. Crimson/Cream)? Okay. It is an uphill battle to that end.

The bottom line, it seems is that 25/52 is not NPHC and NPHC wants a monopoly on their traditions. Between the Latino(a) Greek community and the growing # of Black non-NPHC orgs appearing, It is not going to happen. I think the progress will begin when NPHC works in service with 25/52 and stop fighting against them over finger formations, colors of the rainbow, whether we use the letter O as opposed to Q, and gold boots. That's childish and counterproductive to our collective contributions to the Black communtiy. (Say that 3 times real fast) http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Let it go, all of us, and let's get to work!

Match Game '73

gamma girl,

you pretty much summed up what i was feeling. it all boils down to originality.

nowadays everyone steps (from high school teams, to church groups, to whoever..) so I dont think that's an issue. but the fact that some of the chapters from the 2 organizations use "symbols" and traditions that are KNOWN to have originated from (or have been made synonomous-sp? with) NPHC organizations is disturbing to some!

the Gamma Phi Deltas here on the west coast do steps/strolls, have a hand sign, and a call and no one trips off of them cause NONE of their traditions are things that can be SEEN or HEARD from any other organization (NIC, NPHC, or other).

(here i am taking it back to me just not understanding...) but if your national body doesnt recognize what ya'll have adopted why would (or why was) it put into place in the first place? I mean really, if all the SGRhos in Cali just up and decided we liked elephants better than poodles so we're gonna use that as our mascot , would that make sense?

I guess my biggest things are:
1. Why would you want to represent yourself in a manner that you national body doesnt even support?

and

2. even if you decided to do so anyway (which you have), there are many ways you can position your hands and fingers, and tons of sounds that can be made by the human voice... why these?

**i'm not trying to jump on anyone or anything, i honestly just dont get it**

prettypoodle6, I'm a brother of APO and I don't get it either.

Many organizations do things that are "chapter specific" but they are usually events or a certain philanthropy - not the whole way you present yourself on campus and socialize.

As was said before, a Delta could go to any campus and the call would be the same. If I walked onto a campus wearing APO letters and heard someone do a call that is supposed to represent my organization, I would have no idea what is going on. I'm not saying every chapter should be identical, and I'm not questioning the service getting done - I KNOW it's getting done, or your chapter wouldn't exist - but to me, this is the same concept as if, say, an NPHC sorority would go through the NPC rush process. APO is UNIQUE - all students are welcomed, and I believe if anything is put in the way that prevents anyone from joining that is contrary to what the purpose of the fraternity is.

I hope I got across what I was trying to say, and didn't step on any toes.

Pretty poodle, before I answer your questions, I would like to address a few items:

As far as your comments in the first paragraph, I can see where you are coming from to some extent. The Sigma Rhomeos, a male auxillary group of your sorority, uses the same call as Alpha Phi Omega (Skeet Skeet!), with the occasional twist of -MEO! at the end of it. Personally I don't find that disturbing, albeit confusing, given we share the same colors. Again, as far as usage of traditions that originated with NPHC groups, Latino and Black non-NPHC groups have followed suit but I have heard no flak from NPHC directed to them to that effect.

Answer to Question #1 - This may have more to do with the general culture of the 25/52 orgs, and possible NIC/NPC orgs as well vs. the general culture of NPHC orgs--Historically mainstream orgs tend to allow traditions to vary by chapter, whereas NPHC orgs tend to keep the same basic traditions throughout the org as a whole. As far as 25/52, the National bodies does not endorse or recognize any one chapter's traditions or culture over another. I know that with our org, some chapters even have their own colors, a concept I have never understood. I do know that with GSS, they do not have one National mascot, but one that varies by chapter. Some adopt the penguin, some the bullfrog, some Raggedy Ann, some the panda bear, etc. That is because the basis of both orgs recognizes the need for diversity.

Question #2 - Can't answer that, as the origins for the call and signs were started at least one generation (about 22 years) back, maybe two. This is nothing new.

Hope this helps

Match Game '73

Folx,

I ran into a link that involved a discussion between an NPHCer and an APhiQ that touched on many of the issues and concerns that I am hearing now.

members.tripod.com/~JBSkeet/IndexFrame.html

Click on page two, then click on "APO on Page Three". You will notice topics of commentary and discussion from the webmaster on his experiences with Alpha Phi Omega. The discussion with the NPHCer is under the heading "Who Are We...Clearing the Air"
Hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Rain Man (edited April 21, 2001).]

Aww man, look at the flames, look at the flames...

dstbrat, my chapter is also located a large, majority institution (Georgia State University) and like I said before, our chapter is respected and looked at as a "real" greek organization. We don't go where we're not invited and start drama with anyone. We're not trying to be down that badly :C)

The first thing I tell people is, "We're not affiliated with ANY greek council" right off the bat. When asked "Are you greek?" my answer is, "Yes!". That's how we feel. We know that we're a service organization first and foremost, but we are greek at heart and people see that.

PrettyPoodle, the call I use means something to me. It has a meaning to all that use it. It doesn't mean that I woke up this morning and said, "Hmm...how about I go and disrespect the Deltas and AKA's today?" As for the sign...GSS has several signs that are region-specific. The one that you are talking about, everyone doesn't use; as a matter of fact, the one sign that EVERY chapter uses looks nothing like that. And no, our Nationals will probably never endorse any of this. Why? They view it as something "local" not national. Trust, many of us have already approached Nationals about recognizing it, but I doubt it.

This can go on and on because 1) not every GSS and APO chapter is experiencing this, so they wouldn't know what the problem is and 2)everyone has their own opinion about it. So can we move on please! RM, see what you started? :C)

In Service,
gamma_girl

I had never heard of Gamma Sigma Sigma , until one of my Sorors told me about them. Alpha Phi Omega was just becoming active
(or reactivating) at Howard when I was graduating. They operated more under the tenet of an scholarly and service fraternity. There was NO issue with them at Howard University. I believe often times said "animosity" is isolated.

I will say this, I think the issue raised by the member who stated she would not recognize someone if they did a call, is valid. Who decided it was okay that some members will emulate NPHC orgs and some will not? Is n't that exclusionary to your own members to act in such a matter?

Dare chapters create rituals and processes unrecognized by its membership...where is the unification of process? Please, do NOT answer this question...Its just one of those outsider things that make you go ...hmm.

I would be disturbed if my Sorors or Frat for that matter did not immediately recognize me if I were visiting a campus.

We have to be careful not to perpetuate the "problem" when many times no problem exists.

For the record, I ditto all who say imitation is the highest form of flattery...step on, call on, greet on, make that hand sign, and all of that good stuff. Fellow Greeks...try not to get too much in a huff over it all. We have SERVICE to do :-)

------------------
Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Incorporated...Every Finer Woman's Dream!

[This message has been edited by Finer Woman10-A-91 (edited April 23, 2001).]

Gammagirl, in 25/52 love the only thing I can say to what I started can be summed up in one word:

GOOD!

I feel a discussion to this end (for me anyways) is LONG overdue. Whereas you may encounter this frequently, but here on the Gilligan's Island of 25/52 (read: Ohio), I don't encounter this much, but I know it exists. I just wanted some feedback.

Match Game '73

Dstbrat, I addressed your first issue in response to prettypoodle's post several posts back, as this seems to be forming a consensus among NPHCers.

Your second paragraph, I can say that the things that make us Alpha Phi Omega should and are all the same: Leadership, Friendship, and Service, without regard to traditions or practices which may deviate from what Nationals may try to promote. This is part of that DIVERSITY that they stress on the fraternity as a whole. Ain't America great?

Match Game '73

I agree with my Soror and see Dstbrat's point also. My earlier posts were deleted for some reason. I have nothing against any group. I end by saying, had there not been a need for any of us, none of us would exist.

------------------
Sweet Deliverance's PHI-losophy:
"What you do or do not do today determines what you can or cannot do tomorrow."

rain man -

i wont even touch the Rhomeo thing cause i dont really know too much about them (as a separate entity) since they havent been apart of my organization for over 5 years before i even joined (i'm sp. 96)!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif (and besides, if i start talking about some of the things i've seen them do in regards to sgrho, i'd be opening up a WHOLE 'nutha can of worms!)

but thank you for the insight! its well appreciated and noted

gamma girl, there's not hate here just tryna understand that's all!

Alright RM,

Some of us have told you reasons why there is tension among NPHC groups and APO/GSS. From what I've seen, you don't have any real answers to our concerns because you haven't seen or heard about most of the things to which we're referring. Nothing has been said to back up your claim/concern that the tension is racially motivated. In addition, there have been members of the 25/52 family that have said, essentially, "this is a new one on me." So, my question to you is what is your point & what do you plan to do with the information gathered here?

Just wondering.

Kel

finer woman, you raise an important point that is not unique to gamma sig or apo. what about chapters that create traditions that have nothing to do with the national org or the ritual? how do you all feel about that? whether it's remixing a song or any deviation from the program?

i feel like Delta ought to be the same wherever i go. i know different personlities make up the chapter, but the things that make us Deltas should all be the same.

PrettyPoodle, it's all love. Sorry if I came off a little hostile. I'm happy that you're tryna understand-I don't think it's really that serious, only if we make it that way.

RM, much love to you too brother. I know you've raised this question because you're trying to get some understanding, but in 25/52 love, it's hard to get those answers if everyone isn't familiar with the situation at hand. When you have people post and they're like, "Huh?" then it's hard to get the answers you need.

I think that everyone knows it's about serving and uplifment here, not about colors and calls and signs and all that. That is superficial. Those things don't define me as a Gamma Sig, the service that I do and the quality of the service defines me. I think that every greek can agree with that, right?

In Service,
gamma_girl

I have friends from High School that went APO/GSS and they tend to hate on BGLO's all the time. My friends that are in NPHC orgs only reciprocate the hate. IMO, some APO/GSS members feel that the only way to pull themselves up is by pushing others down.

I cannot speak for the 1 million individuals who are members of NPHC organizations, I can only speak from my experiences for me, RM. As far as I'm concerned, there is no tension and I've always treated the APOs I've met with the same love & respect I have for members of NPHC organizations. When I meet a member of GSS, I'll treat her the same way.

Not only can APO/GSS not vote or hold NPHC office, you can't even sit on the council. That's in the NPHC by-laws. It's not something that the individual members are making up, those are the rules. If you'd like that rule to change, follow in Iota Phi THeta's footsteps.

Yes, APO and GSS are entitled to the same respect that any other greek is entitled to, but I'm not going to sit here and say that it's going to happen. BUT, by the same token, members of APO (I really don't see the issue with GSS) should have respect for the things that have been readily associated with an NPHC organization like wearing gold boots. Handsigns & calls really don't bother me because if you pay attention, you can tell the difference.

I have another question. If this is REALLY an APO/GSS versus the NPHC issue, why are there people who hold membership in both?

Again, just wondering.

KnowledgeEternal, I'm sorry to hear that about some of my brothers and sisters doing that sort of thing...how bout turning some of that energy over to service...but I digress.

I think that Kelli brought up a good point. Is there really that kind of concept-25/52 VERSUS NPHC when there are members that are in both? I don't think that's feasible. If there were, dual membership wouldn't be going on.

I think that concept just comes from the frustration that both APO's and Gamma Sigs feel when they have to hear all the negative comments from others. I know that sometimes it gets to me, but if anybody has questions about GSS then I answer them. No reason to keep assuming anything when I'm right there to ask!

Rain Man,

What do you mean exactly by "brindge the gap" between 25/52 and NPHC orgs.? All I have seem discussed here is the issue of tension based on a feeling of proprietorship over calls, strolls, signs, etc. Whay kind of response do you expect from anyone's national HQ's? For many NPHC organization these social markers are not official, I am not sure what direction their National Administrations could give you. They are long standing traditions held dear by many in the organizations but they are not official proscribed tenets. That, however, does not mean they are any less important to the membership.

But again, I am not clear on what the gap is. Are you looking for some assurance that NPHCers will not mind seeing other organizations stroll, call etc. I sincerely doubt it is ever going to happen. 1. The National body is really not likely to take an interest in this type of petty side stuff (nor shoud they in my opinion) and 2. each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. If it makes my skin crawl to her someone with a call that sounds like some mix of a Delta call and an AKA call- it is my skin and it can crawl all it wants.

I personally do suspect race plays an issue based on the description I have been given here (per my original post, this was not an issue on my undergrad campus.) Not the race of the founders of the orgs. but the race of the members of APO/GSS for whom this seems to be an issue. It stands out that the memebers for whom this seems most relevant are those who 1. are African American 2. at HBCU's 3. who are being perceived as imitating outward social signs of NPHC orgs. You say this is not a matter of non NPHC greeks wanting to do what they see NPHC greeks do, but, I think you would probably have to provide me with a whole lot of facts that show

1. they did not get the idea from NPHC orgs in the first place; and
2. that it is not an attempt to emulate BGLOs since these things are not characteristic of GSS/APO on their own or WGLOs.
People are free to pledge whatever type of GLO they want but the reality is if you are an African American who pledges a GLO other than a BGLO and attempt to introduce (or continue as the case may be since I am sure this started back a ways at some schools) things that you know are routinely equated with BGLO's some eyebrows are going to raise and some are going to say you are seeking to imitate what you see else where. The question may be asked "if you are happy with your org,why don;t you do what they do?"

You asked my Soror
Million dollar question to you, Kelli: If you say that no tension exists, does that mean that 25/52 will be treated equally as NPHC orgs in all aspects, except we can't vote or hold office at NPHC function?

What do you mean by "in all aspects?" The NPHC has specific guidelines as far as membeship of organizations are concerned. It is attinable for those who meet the guidelines and seek it (Iota Phi Theta, for example) To participate a choice would have to be made by APO/GSS. If you mean acceptance in some other way- what?

And one last question- why care whether or not you are accepted at all? I don't mean treated civilly (ie not threatened with violence, etc.- that is rediculou behavior) No one could stop you from strolling, stepping, calling, etc. without doing somthing illegal. If you are saying you want them to be directed to be welcoming, that is another story. You can't please all the people all the time and as long as your org is living by its principles and handling its business then you are doing what you should.

(FYI- I don't have a problem with most of the behavior cited in this thread at all. I believe in and love my organization and thw work that we do and no one else's stroll, call, etc. could affect that. As long as they are not being mistaken for DST, I coiuld care less.)

Kelli,
I will respond by paragraph:

First paragraph: Thank you. If the other 999,999 other NPHCers felt the same way you did, I wouldn't have to post this thread http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

Second paragraph: We are not asking to sit on your council. Our bylaws (Article IX, Section ???)specifically prohibit membership on councils consisting solely of social fraternities/sororities, except when university adminsitration requires such.

Third paragraph: How do you feel about us twirling canes? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Seriously, if you feel disrespected because another org is wearing gold boots, there is a major self-esteem and selfishness issue. I went to a party with this one woman who saw another woman wearing the same dress. My date told me "Take me home, that b**** got on my clothes. I said, "Chill out and relax, dontcha know other folx shop at Sears too? Doggone! If anything it means you both have good taste."

Answer to your question: Don't know, you would have to ask someone who holds duel membership. I admit I tried, but I came to my senses just in time.

Rain Man

Kimmie, I would address your concerns by paragraph, but most of the issues overlap. So I am going to try to get to as many of your underlying points as I can.

What do I mean by bridge the gap? Put it to you this way:

When our National M&E Chair mailed the letter to each NPHC org, it was a rather generic letter, loosely stating that there seems to be some sort of problem(s) between the NPHC and APO. Whether or not the problem was real or perceived he did not know. However, he wanted to see if through some open forums, conferences, or other means of communication, APO and NPHC could sit down, address the issues, and get to some possible solutions.

As far as your issue of me supposedly saying that this is not a matter of Non-NPHC Greeks wanting to follow suit with NPHC traditions, and you needing facts that prove A,B,& C, you lost me there. I will not respond to that since I am not sure I am on the same page as you.

As far as you not knowing what the gap is, I can only defer to the 1 million NPHCers and 25/52 Family members who do know. I cannot make you understand what you have not experienced, nor can I or will I fault you for that.

As far as National not wanting to take in interest in "the petty stuff", I am not sure if the root of the issue is "the petty stuff". I am trying to determine what is the root, and responding to the feedback from everyone as it comes in. That is why our M&E chair wrote the letter to NPHC in the first place--to see what, and according to everyone on Greekchat, IF, there is a problem.

What I mean by "in all aspects", is this:

DON'T HATE, APPRECIATE, PARTICIPATE, COOPERATE, CONTEMPLATE, CELEBRATE! Drop all the trivial bulljive, and let's roll up our sleeves and get down to BUSINESS of serving the community.

I think this has been a good thread, but those respondents (thank you all) does not accurately represent those who have seen, witnessed, or just had issue with those who "hated on" 25/52. I know I am no dummy, but based on the responses, it just appears that I am the only one who is aware of this.

As far as "If I am happy with my org, why don't I do what they do?" Because Alpha Phi Omega is not a cookie-cutter fraternity. 'Nuff said.

Hope I touched on all your questions and points.

Rain Man

[This message has been edited by Rain Man (edited April 24, 2001).]

This brings up an interesting topic. Is what we precive real? Or do we just preceive the world in such that a way that we preceive it as real, or is it realatity really real?

I don't understand why this topic was started in the first place. Why create more contraversy?

Rain Man, I believe that you already knew what the issues NPHC orgs have with APO(a co-ed service fraternity) and GSS(a service sorority) on HBCU campuses...

There are many of our NPHC brethren who are part of these organiZations and perhaps their sisters and brothers in those organiZations chose to imitate them...but hey I don't know and really don't care...

This conversation did little to enlighten me on anything.

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

Never mind the contraversy, is what we precieve as reality real, or are we imaging things.

Let's be solidly realistic here. Alpha Phi Owega was on a black campus before most of us was born. And there is no documented history on when something as simple as a call or step or a handsign began. So arn't we assumming too much here. Yes that's right even Alpha Phi Omega on a black campus has had some idea's copied. Fansy That. I look on this board and I see that some people don't get it and really rather not. To them, you can refuse education, it is your right to remain the way you are. When you speak of tradition we have several years of tradition. I personally been in Alpha Phi Omega for over 20 years. And all those years we have been stepping. And before those years we have been stepping, chanting, handsigns. We very
well may have the oldest handsign in the nation.

But is this issue real? You bet. Is it a national issue? Not really. Some NHCP members know of us and have stepped in "our" step shows. It's the brand new ones that never heard of us that cause us to begin immediate training all over again. I remember going to Ohio State and our sisters of Gamma Sigma Sigma just crossed a line of 17 and they came out in there colors and was approached by a Delta who demanded to know how they choose the Maroon and White they were wearing, like they had a corner or all the spectrums of red. But that Delta was in college in a part of the country unfamiliar with who we are. So she was brand new to this. People react differently and I'm now use to the immediate training required.

I don't ever expect total respect from the NHCP organizations because they have the same need we have and they have a hold on many of the college campuses. They have them thinking that unless they are apart of the council, they are not real. That's cool. We in the 25/52 family just have to welcome the educational role. And let them all know.

Peace!

PS. Much Love Rainman, Gamma Girl, Pirate00 and any other 25/52 fam passing by.

JayBEE!

Answer to Question #1: My point is (assuming your previous statements are true), that I should not, nor any 25/52 folx should be approached by any NPHCer to hear complaints about colors, signs, boots, canes, brands, or any other superficial stuff. If you feel those things make up your true identity as a GLO, you are IMHO a sad example of what a fraternity/sorority member is like. What makes your identity should be the fruits you bear (read: what you contribute to the community).

I am not saying the tension is racially motivated, I am saying that the tension is due to a dividing line between who is in NPHC and who isn't. Several posts on this thread made that very clear.

Answer to Question #2: I want to see based on this small bit of feedback if our current National Membership & Extension Chair will resubmit a letter to the 7 NPHC orgs who did not respond initially--see initial post for details (The administrations for those orgs has probably changed and we could get better feedback this time around), and the remaining two orgs we can use their responses to bring them up to speed with what's going on.

Million dollar question to you, Kelli: If you say that no tension exists, does that mean that 25/52 will be treated equally as NPHC orgs in all aspects, except we can't vote or hold office at NPHC function?

The response(s) to this question will be where the rubber meets the road.

RM

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Get ready to match the stars, Edward Asner, Brett Somers, Charles Nelson Reilly, from "Angie", Debralee Scott, Richard Dawson, and Patti Deutsch, as we play the star studded, big money Match Game '77.

Brother RM,

I am very aware of the various "issues" that arise between NPHC and my sorority. But it's like what JAYBEE said, you have to let them know what you're about. You can't blame others for not knowing. When you don't know something about a group of people, you make assumptions about them. Those assumptions will not pass until someone takes the opportunity to learn about the other group and you can go from there.

Can you change the opinions of others? No. I think that is very obvious on this thread. Can you make this into a big issue? No. It's not that I'm oblivious to anything that you've been talking about. Perhaps it is because I've got other things to do and worry about within my organization that I devote my time to that.

As long as my call and handsign are the same I will always get a raised eyebrow wherever I go, but being in this sorority as definitely toughened me up. I can't and don't worry about what others think of my sorority-I care about the service I'm doing and I know I'm a good person. But because I'm taking this attitude, please don't think I'm not aware of what's going on. I just do not make it an issue.