Law Degree Losing Its Luster?
 

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As is the case for many degrees and occupations, I know people with Juris Doctorates, including those who have passed Bar(s), who are unfortunately unemployed or working in an occupation other than what they invested so much time and training in. There unfortunately have always been people with Ph.D., J.D., M.D., etc. in unemployment lines (and needing public assistance). That is becoming increasingly the case in recent years.

What do the GC attorneys and law students think? Is this "law degree losing its luster" just drama and hype?

The headline is drama and hype. The story is a reflection of the economy. It's also a bit of hype, in that historically not all lawyers have made "lots" of money. Comparatively I'm not even sure you can say "most" have, depending on how one defines "lots" of money. Most lawyers make a comfortable living. There's a difference. I wonder how many grads come out of law schools expecting the high-paying jobs that most of them will not get.

Then there's the question of whether part of the problem is that there are too many lawyers. Are law schools turning out more lawyers than the population and economy can reasonably support?

I wager that many law students have this image in mind that includes being a well-paid attorney. As you very well know, there are a number of factors that contribute to how law students perceive the field.

Does it not balance itself out when not everyone passes the bar?

Not really in my experience. Most do eventually.

Full disclosure: I am not an attorney, nor a law student, but this is a huge topic of discussion here, as a few law school alumni have banded together to sue some law schools for misrepresentation. I'm also a school snob.

I read somewhere, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of third-tier law schools are popping up because of the "promise" that law school offers and that it's a fairly lucrative endeavor for a university to add a law school. They know that students will pay (i.e., take on ridiculous loans) for a chance to "make the big bucks," and aren't savvy enough to know that all law schools are not created equally.

In some ways, it's similar to getting an MBA from the University of Phoenix. It may BE the same degree in name, but it won't get the mileage that an MBA from Harvard, Michigan, or Columbia might provide you; it will still get you high debt though. Most of the lawyers in my family and circle of friends ARE in those big law firms in big cities--but they also went to first-tier law schools (and undergrads). The ones who aren't did NOT want that big firm lifestyle and chose other paths.

I think it comes down to being realistic about your options. If you want to do work in a specific region, and you're fine with a comfortable salary, then go to a lower-tier school. You just have to be aware of the fact that it may be as far as you're going to go. That seems to be the issue--that a lot of people went to Podunk U's School of Law thinking that they were going to be tapped to join the white shoe firms in the big cities or to be asked to clerk at the Supreme Court.* They weren't, and they feel as if they got a bum deal.


*While I do not enjoy Clarence Thomas, I agree with him that the Supreme Court is getting too myopic in its views, as all sitting Justices attended Harvard or Yale. He has committed to picking clerks from all different law schools. I doubt many of his fellow Justices have done the same, but it's a start.

Munchkin, your whole post is correct.

Law degrees get a ton of attention, but I think this is happening to a LOT of degrees. Now that most entry-level salaried jobs require a bachelors (and have for a while), everyone has a bachelors. So everyone goes for masters degrees, like that is the thing that will make them stand out. In return, lots of schools are adding masters programs, and making them non-research degrees in fields that have typically required a thesis. Thus, the masters has just become an extended bachelors.

On the whole, I think there is a glut of degree holders. Maybe law gets all of the attention because of its former prestige, and the expense of a law degree compared to other programs.

That's right. Law is also more stratified than virtually any other field. Coming out of undergrad, there's not actually that much difference between the average student from, say, Yale and Vanderbilt. They all have to get their foot in the door, start at the bottom, use connections, etc. There's a gigantic difference between coming from Yale Law and Vanderbilt Law. Twenty places in the rankings mean lots of different open and closed doors.

Yep. And don't get me started on for-profit law schools.

It's definitely happening across the board. One of the reasons universities LOVE Master's programs is because, for the most part, they're not expected to provide any, or much, funding. A non-research Master's program also requires little full-time faculty and resources--but the school is getting cold hard cash.

My graduate program was a bit of a cash cow program like that. It was once fantastic but it had fallen by the time I got there and was riding off its previous glory. Nevertheless, a lot of kids were impressed by the University's name and were perfectly content to take out the max in loans and not work or look for internships. Those are the same people who had a hard time finding a job afterwards; some never took off in the field and are doing other things. Those of us who took advantage of what the University, and the city, had to offer and pounded the pavement for jobs are doing very well.

I think the issue with law schools is so apparent because the situation is a little more aggravated than with most other fields. We're talking about a 90 hour professional degree, which means 90 units of whatever the most expensive credit hour that school sells. My law alma mater, which is a 4th tier, charges $1,300/hour now. Almost double what it cost when I started there. These schools, while giving overall good legal educations are not much more than cash cows for their universities. My circumstances were such that a 4th tier made sense. I already had a job in my father's firm lined up after school and wanted to intern there in the day while going to school in the evenings. Also, it was 45 minutes closer to home than Oklahoma U, the second-tier which I could have attended for a lot less money.

I received a good paycheck while in school and had a job lined up. Also, in Oklahoma, employers don't really care whether you come from OU, OCU or Tulsa or out of state. They're more interested in your experience, clerkships, internships, etc. After that, unless you went to a Tier 1 school, which is pretty much unheard of in this market as Tier 1 associates typically don't send resumes to places like OKC, it's your experience and qualifications, not your school which are going to land you a job.

I graduated from a Tier 4 in '09. Very few of my classmates are not working in jobs which require a J.D. Quite a few have successful solo practices running. Others work in state jobs and there are even a few in the local ivory tower firms.

I'll admit though, our job market, at least right now is kind of an aberration. We only have 4.5% unemployment and unless Icahn dismantles Chesapeake Energy, we should be improving on that.

So I paid a lot for my degree. That's fine. I'm still getting the ROI I expected. Was I overcharged? I guess. That's why I'll never donate a dime to the school. I see them as a for-profit operation meant to subsidize an undergraduate school. I will and do donate regularly to my undergrad where I graduated from (because of scholarships), debt free.

It worked out for me because I was lucky enough to have been born on third base as far as the legal field is concerned. For students going through right now, my advice is to get as much out-of-school legal experience as possible. If that means taking unpaid internships, DO IT.

I've heard that there are still a fair number of markets where you can make a decent living with a law degree, they just aren't the cities that are really popular with young professionals, so it's a mismatch.

Also, when I see people attending the lower-tier schools in Chicago, they are paying not just tuition, but the cost of living in Chicago. So, you go to John Marshall and need 15-20K just to live in the city, instead of, say, Northern Illinois where you can live on about half that. I don't know if the former really gives you more useful connections, but it seems like a lot of people make that choice just to be in a cool place during law school.

It's like you said above, you're getting the return on your investment. The problem now is that a lot of people are not getting their expected return on their investment even though they shouldn't have expected that much of a return.

The people who are suing their law schools thought the Tier 4 regional school would still allow them to play ball with the Tier 1 kids on the national field. That's not true, and it's never been true.

Of course.

Well of course not.

I think the lawsuits may have some merit in that Tier 4 schools, including mine, publish quite a bit of misinformation about their employment statistics in that to the school, you are considered employed after law school whether you are an associate in a top firm or whether you are a barrista at the Starbuck's on the first floor of the building where that other graduate works.

I still don't think the suits have much merit. The information about law school being a gamble if you don't have a plan is definitely out there. Law students tend to be pretty sophisticated people. Expecting to make $150K upon graduation from a Tier 4 school (unless nepotism is involved or you're some kind of prodigy) is just not realistic.

There aren't too many. Kaplan operates one. I'm pretty sure they send out promotional literature to everyone who does poorly on the LSAT. Some states will even license you if you graduate from a non-ABA approved school.

My remarks about my school weren't that it is for-profit per se, but it is being run as a cash cow to subsidize other aspects of the university.

The same issue is happening in veterinary medicine. We are pumping out too many vets. More schools are opening up and many schools have increased their class sizes. There are many undergrad students that don't get into a state side school so now they are going overseas to vet school where their debt can easily reach 250,000 to 300,000 (for example Ross university which is a for profit school). Try paying 250,000$ off with a 60,000$ a year salary-and this is if you can get a job. I have tried to educate some of these pre vet students on the student doctor network message board-but they don't want to hear it. Many think they won't have any problems getting a job or that it is all rainbows and unicorns once they graduate. They are in for a big surprise. I was talking to a 4th year vet student this May and she said 60% of the 2012class did not have a job yet. My class (1997) had at least 3 job offers each by early spring. We could pick and chose where we wanted to go.

I have trried to warn them and have gotten nothing but rude responses. At this point I don't give a rat's ass if they drown in debt.

Does anyone have any opinions on the income based repayment that the government is now offering? Many of these students are saying they are just going to depend onthis when they graduate but I have a feeling this program will not last.

Not to come to your school's defense, but external forces put that system in place. The ABA, USNews, and NALP have rules about how employment stats are reported; schools must publish them that way.

Schools that really care about transparency will ALSO publish more detailed stats about who's working outside of the legal field, part-time, etc. So I'm not saying the schools are blameless. They just didn't come up with the idea of including the Starbucks baristas as "employed" -- they were asked to do that.

Even when schools are up front about the bad job odds, students ignore the ugly stats or think they'll be in the lucky group. It's just what aggieAXO is saying about the new vets. You can tell them that 90% of the grads are starving...a whole lot of people think, "But I'll be in the 10%."

Remember that cool thread about online degrees that turned into a thread about for-profit schools? :) Deja vu.

Interesting 2007 article that lists a few for-profit "schools of law":
http://stayviolation.typepad.com/chu...or-profit.html

(I do not necessarily agree with him but I am amused by his word usage errors that any amount of proofreading could have caught.)

Warning the world about all for-profit schools, one thread at a time. This is a list of the majority of for-profit schools and does not include every for-profit "school of law":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_and_colleges

IBR is a good thing considering the limited alternatives that most people have.

Yes, you can go to med school in the Carribean and do a residency here. The AMA keeps a pretty strict cap on the number of seats in medical schools, to the point where some would argue there are not enough doctors being trained.

I have no idea why the ABA doesn't do the same.

My mom went back to work in 1999 after more than a decade out, and they needed SPED teachers so she taught SPED. There was such a shortage that they were totally cool with that as long as she enrolled in night school within a few months. Teaching SPED and getting another degree at her age was not easy, but that's what was available.

BUT...once you teach SPED for a few years, if you really want, you have the seniority move to non-SPED. My mom never did (and she retires today from the Chicago Public Schools!), but a 22-year-old who wants to get a job should really consider putting in the grunt work.

Money.

--that and the fact that for-profits which aren't licensed by the ABA are popping up and some states are allowing their graduates to take the Bar. This could render the ABA impotent.

Caribbean medical schools do serve an important niche. Here in NYC, there's an Urban Doctors Program that will provide scholarships to students to study at Caribbean medical schools with the understanding that they'll work at one of the underserved public hospitals in the city for a number of years after their residencies (which they'll also do here). Some people pick those schools specifically because they want to do public health and don't necessarily want/need to take on the debt of a major medical school. The vast majority of the people in Caribbean medical schools WANT to be in places like Rwanda or the South Bronx.

It's kind of like Kevin's situation--he knew he'd have a job right out, so he needed the JD--not the name on the JD. The problem lies in the people who think they'll have all of same opportunities as those who went to a more prestigious school.

I think the problem of too many lawyers actually stems from the economy as well. Being from MI and just happening to graduate college the year the state's economy took a major dump I know way too many people who furthered their education (Mostly Masters programs but a few going to law school) simply because they couldn't find work with their 4 year degree and had assumed that the economy would've recovered by the time they graduated. I assume that this phenomena is pretty much going on nation wide now.

I'm not sure there are any folks attending T3/T4 schools and expecting to get jobs at Top 100 firms. They'd have to be pretty delusional.

I was content to stay in OKC. Here, the top firms recruit from the three state schools equally. They care more about class rank and internships and clerk ships than they do your school tier.

Students should treat their education as an investment. It's not a ticket to greatness, it's just a ticket to ride.

There are TONS of these folks. They are totally delusional. They don't even do enough research to know about "top 100" firms or anything like that...they just know that lawyers make lots of money, so they go for it.

A lot of law students are 20-something year olds whose mindsets are still at the level of undergraduate students. In a similar fashion as undergraduate students, they are looking for quick answers to the questions "where will this degree take me" and "how much will I be making."

And some law schools are marketing themselves as answers to those questions.

These students are also getting a skewed perception from friends, family, and some of their social networks (nonInternet).

It would totally depend on the state. Not in most states. In Illinois and most other states, you have to have a JD from an ABA accredited school to take the bar.

In California, you don't need a JD at all. Kaplan is registered with the California bar and its students can go through the unaccredited process for taking the bar. They take the First Year Exam ("Baby Bar") at the end of their 1L year and then sit for the regular bar at the end of their 3L year.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/le...cal_order.html

This list includes a few for-profit law schools. Kaplan is not among them.

I think this is one of the biggest issues with the people who get frustrated when their low-level school fails to get them "that big money." Many have heard their whole lives that education is this great equalizer and that once you have a degree--any degree--you're set and all your financial problems are gone forever and ever.

What people fail to realize, however, is that education is only one piece of the puzzle. Where you went, how you did, and who you meet along your way to said degree makes a lot of difference as well. These are often the same people who get sucked in by online schools and get the idea that if you go to law school--any law school, you'll be living large like Claire Huxtable.

How do we explain the appeal of a place like Cooley?

I agree but this is not about school tiers. There are just enough accomplished professionals who graduated from "low-level" schools and that unfortunately includes for-profit online schools. All it takes is a couple of well-established and esteemed alumnae/i to be featured in the school's Career Center or Alumnae/i Magazine and prospective students and current students believe that they too can be among the accomplished. Afterall, there are people who attend "lower-level" schools who attained the skills and networks to excel. They often had to work harder to get people to take them seriously but they tend not to tell that part of the story--unless they grow a disdain for their degree program.

There are things that people with a law degree can do outside of practicing as a lawyer too. We've been hiring primarily people with law backgrounds in the HIPAA Privacy area and most Privacy Officers I've met during my audits of our vendors have law degrees. The last one was even from Columbia.

Before my ex was laid off, he noted that a lot of jobs that used to go to MBAs were going to people with law degrees instead.

Hypo is considering a law degree eventually but her end goal would have more to do with working in environmental law or politics in some way because she's such a little activist! One of the young women she met at Barnard's Young Women's Leadership Institute was the daughter of a woman who is an ACLU attorney. She was very excited about that!

I know people with a J.D. who never intended to practice law and they have stood firmly behind that.

Oh, and our Governance and Compliance folks usually come from a law background. One of my professors had a law degree and a Master's in IT Security.