Not Religious and Interested in Fraternity Recruitment
 

I apologize in advance for bringing up the topic, as I have read some posts that have been related to this topic but have still not received an answer to this question. I will be rushing next fall and am excited about Greek Life. I am attending a school that has a large Greek presence (over 50% rush). I already know that as a humanist/agnostic that I would not be welcomed at Kappa Sig and that Sigma Chi goes beyond asking an initiate to uphold Christian Ideals, but are there any other fraternities that require an oath to God (not just MY GOD (as in science or morality in general)? I have looked at all the national websites that are present on campus and seem to find conflicting information. On one hand I see non-discrimination policies, yet many reference God in mottos or creeds. Please understand that I don't in any way disrespect anothers' beliefs but feel it would be a waste of their time to rush them if there is no way I can, in good conscience be a member. In no way do I want to know initiation secrets, but rather, would I be able to take the oath at FIJI or Beta for example without lying, as I will not compromise on a lifetime commitment. I understand that regional differences may apply to whether or not I actually get a bid. Since we only have three days to rush I would concentrate on those places that would consider me eligible for membership based on my beliefs.

Sorry this post is so long. I apologize in advance if this thread causes religious debate (as the other threads did). though from lurking, it seems there is a lot of debate on here anyway, which makes for informative reading.

Welcome to the site.

I have met many, many people in several organizations who are not hardcore (insert religion), but are still active in their GLOs. It's been my experience that (in many cases) the religious aspects are more historical than applied (ex. "We were founded on Christian ideals" rather than "Raise your right hand to God and repeat these scriptures in order to initiate").

I'll defer to some of the IFC-type posters, as that seems like the route you want to go. Good luck.

K_S is right. A number of fraternities were founded during a time of religious revival. Because of that, rituals and overall imagery may be of a certain religion. While ABC may have things in their official writing that mention God, most chapters are open minded about people from all (or no) faiths into their chapters, provided they meet other requirements.

I will say that while most stress it in their creeds or mottos, It isn't really such a big deal anymore. As for my organization though, I would rather not say. But being that we have remained this way for almost 100 years, it can be pretty hard for others to adjust (which is a reason our chapters have such high % of people in the faith).

You should go and ask the rush chairs of each group, they are the only ones who can truly answer your question.

jazing, the only reason that I don't want to ask all the rush chairs is that I don't want to be "that guy". I am afraid if I make a big thing out of this, they won't want to deal with me. I hope all the groups will have summer rush events, so I can ask informally but in general rush is 3 intense nights then we move into houses and get initiated.

I do thank all of you for responding so far.

Never thought of it that way. When I rushed I joined the organization specifically for their religious affiliation.

"Christian ideals" =/= believing Christ is the Messiah.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is just an old-timey way of saying "Be excellent to each other." You don't have to believe Jesus Christ even existed to know that's a good motto to follow in life.

What is funny is that most of the Christian Ideals are based on Jewish Ideals ...

That is actually a phrase coined to King Hillel.

I think there's a similar issue with sororities, although there are 2 NPC sororities on record as being nonsectarian. I don't know if there are any fraternities who are. But in my case, there is a clearly religious aspect to our ritual that I know for sure some members wouldn't agree with religiously (me for instance, but I wasn't as clear in my agnosticism (?) at 18). I believe the policy for non-Christians is to remain silent during that portion although it was never discussed as far as I know but I don't think the Jewish members of my sorority would be required to recite every bit of our ritual, just as an example.

My suggestion would be to feel out the chapter and not worry about the literal ritual. If they feel a little crispy for you, look elsewhere. Even the fraternities that have a strongly religious background might be a good fit for you based on the actives, the campus, the times, etc. Don't limit your choices based on a 100+ year old ritual. You can take the positive ideals (be a good person, don't be a douche) out of a Christian, Jewish or Hindu prayer without having to vow allegiance to any particular god. But that's just my opinion.

Same here.

But do we really know this for sure?

It's a sticky situation that I don't believe is so easily tossed aside.

I agree 33girl, which is why I don't think I will have a problem with most groups. I have tried to google references to religion and specific fraternities, but have only come up with Kappa Sig as a definite requirement and Sigma Chi as most likely a no. I understand the need to keep ritual sacred, but I would hate to be moved in the house and ready to initiate only to be told that my lack of religious beliefs mean I am ineligible.
I consider myself a very moral person and the golden rule isn't counter to my beliefs. I was also raised to be respectful of others' faith since we all need something to believe in throughout our lives. But I couldn't be a Boy Scout when I was a child because they require a belief in God so I wouldn't want to make a false oath for a much more important part of my life.

I think if the chapter is very upfront about their religious ideals, it makes a difference (as most of our chapters are). But if they aren't, then you shouldn't be worried.

From knowing my ritual, there really isn't much someone who isn't Jewish would not understand. Just a lot of the meaning comes from Jewish symbols and beliefs.

I don't think you would find yourself in any situation in which you are "ineligible" but you very well may find yourself being "uncomfortable".

Uncomfortable I can deal with, but getting kicked out I can't. I have remained silent for the Pledge of Allegience most of my life, so I have no problem being silent with other parts as well.

Thank you again for your responses. I will check in tomorrow after school.

I think she meant in general, which is true. I don't have to be a devout Catholic to understand/appreciate the golden rule.

Yes, I understand that. My comment was in response to the part of her quote I highlighted in red, about not having to vow allegiance to any particular god. I don't think we can make a generalization about that.

No, you don't have to be a devout follower of Confuciounism(sp) to appreciate the golden rule..;)

OP-

You are making this much more of an issue than it really is. At their core, NIC fraternities are social groups, not religious cults. We really dont put as much emphasis on religion as you think we do..really. You may run into an occasional reference to God in certain rituals and creeds but that doesn't mean you're pledging yourself to God because you read or repeat such rituals or creeds anymore than it would if using money with "in God we trust" printed on it would. Make sense? Personally, I'm areligious and I never had an issues with participating in any rituals, neither did my Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu brothers.

The golden rule is from the Jewish tradition. :D

I like the "in God we trust" mentality brought up by Pike2001. Ritual is meant to describe the ideals of the organization in which you belong. Most were written at a time in which religion was the driving force in the lives of the educated. Times have changed, but we are able to still find value in the thoughts of our Founder's with out being dogmatic about the source.

Wow...I wonder how that happened. What a coincidence! :p

Which he probably learned while living in Babylon, where he was born, as it dates back to at least 1500 years before him to the Code of Hammurabi. The reality is almost every religion (if not every religion and indeed every society) has some form of the Golden Rule.

Lilgiant2016, check these threads:

Atheists as members

Christianity in ritual

Religion and GLOs

As you will see from these threads, there are (a few?) fraternities that will expect members to affirm belief in a Supreme Being (the main one I can think of being one that you have mentioned), and there are fraternities where the religious aspects will be more pronounced than others. (Again, a handful come to mind.) There are also many fraternities that will be pretty much non-sectarian.

Go to rush events, get to know the guys and I bet you'll get a good feel for where you'd fit in.

^^ I'm going to kick all of y'all in the shins lol

I don't have to be a devout ANYTHING to appreciate the GR :)

Actually, there are three (Alpha Omicron Pi, Delta Phi Epsilon and Phi Sigma Sigma). AOII may not have explicitly stated it, but the fact that the founders were both Jewish and Christian pretty much says it for me.

As far as fraternities, Pi Lambda Phi comes up as the first non-sectarian fraternity through a quick googling. However, part of their creed is that they "pledge allegiance to my country, and to its national symbol."

Lilgiant2016, have you sat out the PoA because of the under God part, or because of the concept of the thing?

I failed to catch this earlier, but with most fraternities (there are a few exceptions), you will not be initiated immediately. You'll pledge, which also involves a ceremony. Initiation will happen a number of weeks or months after that, and the time in-between will be spent learning about the fraternity and building bonds with other pledges and with the chapter.


There is at least one fraternity whose members have said on GC that inability to affirm faith in a Supreme Being would indeed render a man ineligible for membership. How strictly a particular chapter might enforce that rule is, of course, a different matter.

Honestly, I think you are limiting yourself unnecessarily if you won't even consider a fraternity because of what might happen to be in its ritual. Some of us choose to view ritual as a historical connection to our founders, that reflects the time in which it was written, and not modern-day realities. Putting my hand on a bible means nothing, because the bible means nothing to me. Believe me, nobody in my initiating chapter cared.

When you go through rush, I think it will be obvious if a fraternity's brothers are especially Christian (or Jewish, I suppose), and you would truly be a bad fit. But for the most part, lot of people (everyone?) question their faith in their college years, and you are not betraying your brothers to go through the motions of ritual without meaning some parts.

I can think of at least 2, and possibly three fraternities that require a belief in a Supreme Being.

This.

Honestly, when I saw the title for this thread, my first thought was "and so?"

I think that in some parts of the country (like the Deep South) it truly would be an issue. I give the OP major credit for not wanting to promise anything he doesn't believe in. We're always getting told to "live our ritual," well, he is doing that before he even gets a bid. Which is awesome. It doesn't sound like this is a "questioning" thing, rather, this is something he's studied and thought about a lot and truly committed to.

As a lifelong southerner, I think that what DeltaBetaBaby said makes sense. Meet the men, and he'll get a sense for how important it is for that group. Some may care; others certainly won't.

While Pi Lambda Phi says non-sectarian, all three of their founders were of Jewish ideals. They can even be considered the first Jewish fraternity, except they didn't limit their admittance like ZBT would a few years later. A lot of their chapters back in the day (one of our chapters brothers is a legacy) pushed the Jewish aspect.

By whom?

And to give an example from Phi Mu's open creed, it says I should "reverence God as our Maker, striving to serve Him in all things." What does is even mean to "live my ritual" in that sense?

Contrast with "To be to others what we would they would be to us." That one's pretty clear. Live the golden rule. Okay!

I think, at their core, fraternity and sorority values are more alike than different, regardless of how they were expressed in words 150+ years ago. I also think that their expression in individual chapters does not correspond to the rituals themselves, i.e. the most religious chapter on campus does not necessarily have the most references to god in its ritual. In the example Jazing posted just above me, a guy could join thinking "non-religious, cool" and then find himself feeling out of place when everyone goes home for Rosh Hashanah (see also: Theta at U of M).

The thing is we're all speculating about how religious (or non-religious) the rituals of other orgs may or may not be. All we have to go on are our own rituals and the public statements that some GLOs make (such as making clear that belief in a Supreme Being, however one understands that, is required, or a notice to PNMs that "our rituals will in no way cause you discomfort with regard to your own beliefs"). While I do not doubt that for members of many orgs, the religious expressions in a ritual are easily seen in a historical context rather than a religious one, I would not assume that holds true for all orgs. I think it is possible that some orgs do still consider them as having real religious context. What I have read in public statements from one or two fraternities suggests that they do, at least nationally. What the view is at the chapter level, again, may be a different story.

That's why I think that all the OP can do is read up to know what specific fraternities say publicly on the subject and meet and talk to the members of chapters on his campus to gauge their attitudes.

Right, I agree with everything you've said, I'm just saying that he is not going to be able to gather enough information via google search to really know what he is getting into.

Agree completely.

Thank you all for yor replies. I will try to answer some of the specifics. Regarding the Pledge of Allegiance, I just say it the way it was written without the words Under God. I just don't feel it is necessary, and I can always say that it is the way my grandparents recited it and I am a traditionalist.

Thank you for the links. I had read a couple of those, which is why I was nervous about bringing up the subject. My mom, who is Greek told me that for those that want me, it won't generally matter, but she is also the one that encouraged me to get a feel for the values of the organizations while keeping an open mind. She suggested I post here, with the warining that I need to be respectful or I would get schooled.
She also said I should thank you all with a recruitment story next fall, but I think I would be way too easy to identify. The school is very small and very greek.

I have decided to ask a senior at one fraternity about his experiences and to maybe ask some of the guys I have met from a few of the schools about if they would see a problem with pledging. I just need to make it sound casual and not pushy or needy. I have a few favorites already at the school, but it has been drilled into my head to keep an open mind.

Thanks again. I will keep checking in.

You might want to check out the webpage for the national organization of the chapters you are interested in. I know that KD's webpage has a very clear nondiscrimination statement.

If you can't find it on the web page, a polite email to the national organization might give you the information you need.

I would think that if a statement of faith is required, it would be required in order to PLEDGE, not to initiate. I mean, it would be something they would tell you is required before even putting you into their system. Getting you half way through the initiation process, only to have you say whoah, back up, would be a HUGE problem. At least in my experience, there's a whole bunch of stuff in my sorority's initiation that we wouldn't want anyone to know before we get to the actual ritual. I mean, the hover crafts happen WAY before the ritual.

:confused:

OK, so my grammar was messed up there, but am I wrong? I read a few articles about requiring potential pledges to affirm in writing belief in an ever-living God.

I didn't mean any lack of respect for Sigma Chi.

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sent you a pm

I don't think he's worried about a group not bidding him because of his views, rather, he doesn't want to receive a bid and then go to a pledging ceremony where he has to profess his belief in Christ. There might be other brothers who took the oath without really weighing what it means, but he doesn't roll that way.

DBB - that's a favorite phrase of many of our big bugs (har) and I've heard other groups say it too.