Someone to tell your chapter about before recruitment
 

Alright, I just found out that this girl I used to babysit for, who lives in my neighborhood and have known for most of my life will be going to Elon. She just emailed me to tell me all about how she wants to be in a sorority and if i can get her in ect....
the thing is is that I can't stand this girl. She is a brat and a snob and always has been. There are also a lot of things that I know that she has done that I, and many other people haven't been to keen on....example: one time she stole this old woman's cat and when the old woman went to her parents about it, she skinned it and then gave it back...she is crazy!
Is it wrong for me to write a "Don't let her into our chapter" reccomendation?

By all means, use your no-rec. It sounds like this girl is disturbed--she is a criminal if she skinned a cat--and would you want this kind of person in your chapter?

I have only used my no-rec twice. This past year, I used it for a PNM whom I worked with this summer and truly believe to be mentally disturbed because she physically attacked other employees. My daughter, who's the kind who never wants to say bad things about acquaintances, sent one to the AOPi chapter at that school as well...she worked with her too. The chapters did a little checking on their own and called to thank us.

I wouldn't use my no-rec casually; however, there are times when you have to actually protect the Greek system.

OMG!!! How long ago was the cat incident? I hope someone reported her to the authorities, because, seriously, she should be prosecuted for animal cruelty -- depending on state law, it may be a FELONY. That is one of the most warped, disgusting things I have ever heard.

I guess I'm reacting so strongly to this because I LOVE animals and I get so angry when I hear about them being abused. You're serious -- she skinned someone's cat? That is a MAJOR problem. How dare she call you and ask you to help her? Did you know that many serial killers start out by abusing animals? Being a snob and a brat are the least of her problems. I think it is your DUTY to warn your sisters (and others!) about her. Would YOU want to live with such a person? I wouldn't, because I'd probably end up skinning her if I ever found out about what she did.

I am totally serious, though, about reporting her to the authorities if nobody has. She should be in jail, not a sorority house.

Sorry for ranting, but I take animal abuse VERY seriously.

The cat abuse happened when she was either in 8th grade or just started high school. The police came and everything, she got a slap on the wrist. Her parents think she is absolutely wonderful, beautiful and can do no wrong, and their excuse for her was "she just didn't want to loose something she loved"....to me, for her parents to even say that makes all of them look insane! the only one in her family who is remotely normal is her sister and she is actually nice.

I have already told a few of my sisters and a few other greeks on elon's campus about her.

I think she should be put in an institution insted of sending her 8 hours away. i can only imagine what havoc she will reak there.

Hey there
Not that I know this girl, bc obviously you do, but don't you think it's possible for people to change from 8th grade? Maybe she had some emotional type problems back then, she could have gotten over them.
Well I don't know maybe she nvere changed, but to hold people to what they did while in 8th grade just seems a little, well I don't know?
i love animals too, and this makes me really upset, but Im just tryong to look at it from the other side.

Uh, it's one thing to say, say something stupid or be bratty or whatever when you're in the 8th grade, but to SKIN A CAT AND GIVE IT BACK TO ITS OWNER? There's a huge difference between youthful stupidity and SKINNING A CAT, and that one is WAY over the line, alllllll the way into psychotic territory.

That isn't the only incident. She also keyed her ex boyfriends car last year. granted, thats maybe not as bad as skinning a defenseless animal, but its still not right. she has also gotten in several fights too...like physical fights at school, in the neighborhood, ect.

Maggie,

Sounds like she has actually committed several crimes: keying (property destruction), fighting (assault) and cruelty to animals, which by the way is cited in several books as a sign of mental illness. Take it from one who has seen it all: No one who's done all that will be changing without professional help.

You'd be doing the Greek system a favor to let your friends in other sororities at Elon know too. You know that psycho I told you about a few posts ago? My daughter and I only let our 2 sororities know and hoped word would get around. Well, it didn't, she pledged another GLO-- and according to a friend in a fourth sorority, she's putting her group through hell.

Telling a sorority the truth about a crazy person isn't slander so it's good to be able to back up your story. In our case, we had some twenty witnesses who would have corroborated the attacks of the PNM.

hey guys
Well yes, that is what I meant. I think it's absolutely terrible what she did, and I thought maybe she could have been helped through counseling or professional help. What I meant what that people who do have some type of diturbances for whatever reaons, i 8th grade or whenever, should not be condemed for life if they seek the help they need.
Do you talk to her family? Maybe you could talk to her parents as a concerned neighbor,
I mean if someone is really medically "crazy" people need to realize it's a sickness just like any other sickness.(Sorry Im just concerned bc I am going into the medical field, so I think I have some sensitivity for people who need help)
I hope this helps, and hopefully she can be helped too:)

YIKES!
 

Whoa!
As a fellow AXiD, I would say to talk to your recruitment advisor first-hand, or your Recruitment chair. If there was anyone going through Recruitment that may in any way de-value or bring your chapter down in any way, it is simply NOT worth it. To be honest, I have told my advisors about one person while going through Rush; she was extremely promiscuous, and even though she was barely a sophomore, she already had a horrible reputation within the fraternities on campus. She wasn't a nice person, either. Trust your instincts, and don't worry, your sisters trust you...if you don't want that person there, chances are neither would your sisters. Hope that helps!!!

I completely agree with deltajas. I am a psychology major, so I have a sensitivity to those with problems as well. Chances are if she was getting in trouble with her behaviors, even if they were a slap on the wrist, her family has noticed and given her help. The fact that she is seeking to identify with a group is a good sign that she has received this help. Most people with emotional/behavior disorders isolate themselves.

But if you still do have some reservations about her, maybe just don't write a recommendation at all. A "no-rec" is your right...that's why nationals make this option available. But maybe you feel that you would be compromising too much to make a positive one. I mean, how would you gather the information to make you feel it's ok too? You can't go up to her family and say, "Hey! Is your daughter still nuts?" If you went to the same high school, maybe speaking to some of the teachers there would be a help in making your decision. Maybe take the middle ground and don't write one at all.......

Okay, guys--

The reason that we have no-recs is to prevent someone who could greatly damage your chapter and/or the Greek system from pledging. I don't take this lightly. I've only used it twice in 30 years--once for the case I described above and once in the case of a girl with whom I spent 3 weeks and knew to be extremely promiscuous with strangers. In cases where I just didn't like the girl, I kept my mouth shut.

I had a zillion psychology courses and worked with disturbed people, including juvenile delinquents, for 13 years and I can tell you that if those parents are in denial that deep when their kid committed a felony, they are most certainly still in it. It never fails: the child continues to commit worse and worse acts until something really horrible happens. In this case, it already has.

So Maggie, do you want the girl wearing the letters of Alpha Xi Delta? Would she make the sorority proud? Would she contribute to the Greek system?

If not, you should write the no-rec because if you keep silent and she pledges your chapter and destroys your good name, you will never forgive yourself.

I am trying to control myself rt. now as I am very biased on this subject. I am in the medical field-I am a veterinarian and what this girl did is SICK. I don't care how long ago it was. IT is SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK. I deal with animal abuse cases on a weekly basis, I get to treat the abused animals. Last week we had a cat brought in by the animal control officer in Austin, There were a group of kids kicking its head in. I know about mentally ill people, my father is bipolar and so was his father and his father etc... But if he ever hurt an animal like this or a human being I would have no sympathy for him at all. It seems like in today's society, mental illness is becoming an excuse to do anything we want, including murder of animals and humans. If I had my way these people would get death row (yes I am from Texas and have NO problems with the death penalty-but that is another subject). So from furst havnd experience this girl needs to be locked up or under serious supervision and maybe some chemical help. Also, to say that mental illness is just like any other sickness is in my opinion an ignorant statement. I feel like you are saying that mental illness is like having the flu or cancer-it is not. I better stop now before I say something that cannot be retracted.

I have always heard that abuse of an animal by a child is one of THE most important signals of serious mental illness. Also, I thought in a study they found that the most violent criminals had been observed or at least admitted committing this act.
I don't mind if someone corrects me on this, I don't have a masters or anything in Psychology-just an interest.

I'm all for giving people a second, third even a fourth chance, but this may pose a safety issue for individuals of the group she joins.
Yes, it could be her "salvation" but it could also end in a more tragic way. THIS IS A TOUGH ONE!

I might be inclined to write a "no rec". I am being honest yet not passing on information that could harm her.

follow your heart
 

it sounds like a no-rec might be in order. but understand that you cannot change her and it might not be in your best interest to get more involved. i write this with a 19-year-old cat sleeping on my sofa, so you know where my head and my heart is.
mmcat
:eek:

Had to laugh at that one mmcat-especially with that little smiley!

justamom you are absolutely correct. At the couseling center where I interned we had to take a complete biopsychosocial history of all of the adolescents that came in. Included in the questions was history of animal abuse....it was really sad :(

Oh, I just can't leave this topic alone...

I completely agree with carnation and aggieAXO. It sounds like this girl has serious mental problems and has gotten no help from her parents. If her parents think she can do no wrong and have made excuses for her outrageous behavior, they have NOT gotten her any help because they don't think she needs it. Therefore, she has not dealt with any of the underlying mental problems that have made her think that it is okay to torture and kill an animal (and get into fights with others).

If the cat abuse happened when she was in eighth grade and I'm assuming that now she is a senior in high school, that was ONLY FOUR YEARS AGO. That is not much time in one's life, especially if she has not gotten help. She needs SERIOUS help, much more than just a therapy session once a week or whatever. If I were her parents, I would've thrown her ass into residential treatment so fast after the cat incident, because I would realize that she is out of control and dangerous to herself and (more importantly, IMHO) others. It seriously bothers me that parents can sit around and make excuses for a child who does something so absolutely terrible.

I'm sorry to go on so, but I do have some background in this area. I worked with kids with behavior disorders at a residential treatment facility several years ago, and some of these kids came to us with such issues that there was no way their parents alone could help them, and actually, their parents were the ones who taught them the dysfunctional behavior in the first place. It was amazing, too, how many parents were either in denial or who thought that the kids needed help but they didn't. Excuse me, but do you think that if you raised a kid to burn down a library or suffocate puppies in a cooler (yes, it happened) that YOU are not in need of counseling also? Oh, it made me so mad.

I have also studied animal cruelty law, and I can tell you that animal abuse is a HUGE problem. The way to get most people to understand that it is a problem is to point out that many serial killers start out torturing animals, or that, for example, many abusive men try to control and terrify their mates by torturing and abusing their pets. However, I think that it is our responsibility as human beings to ensure the fair and kind treatment of animals everywhere -- animals should never be abused because they feel pain and are living creatures, and it is OUR DUTY to stop and prevent the abuse.

AggieAXO, I really admire you for what you are doing. I think that animal abusers should go to jail, and I hope to, at some point in my career, have the ability to lobby for stronger animal cruelty laws and better enforcement of them.

Thank you Valkyrie, I appreciate your comments, BTW I just went up to the clinic I work at and the cat that got her head kicked and arm broken is doing very well she is out of her coma and is no longer seizuring, though she is blind and am not sure if she well recover from this but we will find her a good home-a happy ending to a horrible event. The kitten that got thrown out the window on the highway last week (didn't mention this one but guys this kind of stuff happens every week and it makes me sick to my stomach-these people need to go to HELL) is also doing well.

wow mmcat a 19 year old kitty-that is great:) Hope she has many more birthdays to come.

Karen

Oh, God, stories of animal abuse make me cry...and make me SO ANGRY. I'm seriously thinking of becoming a veterinarian, because I love animals so much and seem to have some sort of trusting connection with them, and when I hear of such screwed up people hurting those helpless creatures, it makes me see red.

Gah.

Let's see....this girl skinned a cat at the age of 13. She did this when she still had a young, developing mind. Obviously, something must've happened to her in her past to cause her to become that violent. And I don't think that someone that sick can all of the sudden just change for the better. It takes YEARS of intensive therapy. And, just as justamom said, children who abuse animals usually grow up to have severe mental illnesses. For instance, Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy! :eek: I am all for you writing a no-rec on this girl. If something were to happen, and she had your letters, I think you'll be kicking yourself.

You are given the power of a no-rec for a reason. In my opinion, you are obliged to write it.

If that girl were trying to rush at my school, I would warn every friend I've got in the greek system. People like that should be committed, not initiated! :mad: No-rec her, and voice your knowledge VERY strongly, so your sisters know exactly what they might be getting themselves into.

Re: Someone to tell your chapter about before recruitment
 

Ok, all of you self appointed arm-chair Sigmeund Freud's in the room, do you mind if we review your various but similar diagnosis of this human being's mental dysfunction? And I hope you all haven't cashed your checks yet . . .

Hey, I was with you, reading along and going "rah rah" imprison her or burn her at the stake. But then I thought about it . . .

One of the responsibilities of personal or organizational leadership (and maybe human maturity) is to be able to check our emotional gut or intuitive reaction againt a good thinking criteria to allow for better decision making.


So this is what I reread in light of having to make a decision:

1. Maggieaxid used to baby sit a kid that thought was very brattty, and acted obnoxious and spoiled. (I recall running away from my baby sitter once because I couldn't get my way but was enticed back for dinner, luckily she didn't tell my Father). And has held that opinion of her since that time. She has also heard bad rumours second hand about her (I assume second hand because of the age difference.)

Bad rumours: She may have skinned a stolen cat. She got into fights in school and around the neighberhood. She may have keyed her ex-boyfriends car.

Authors note: For those of you who think keying a car is less serious, you are wrong. ITs psychotic behavior that should be punished by death. Keying a man's paint job is evil. But I guess we all have different buttons to push.

Everyone here is pretty credulous.

A 13 year old girl stole a cat and then had the strength to hold a cat in place and forcibly remove all its skin and fur with some less than razor sharp blade without being scratched to pieces? I am not sure I could do that now. But I guess a future psychotic might have access to such incredible brute strength. Or be intellegent enough to engage in ritualistic butchery by sedating and then restraining the animal first. Of course if the little monster were smart enough to do that she would be smart enough not to get caught. Remember, no one catches those budding psychopaths till much later. I might believe she partially shaved it, and I might definitely believe she might have tried to keep her neighbors cat.

Note: There are three indicators of sociopathic behavior and all must be present: torturing animals, wetting the bed, and pyromania. Not all people that did these things become criminals, many stay on this side of the law by seeking jobs of authority and control such as law enforcement.

Many people have a combination of those traits. Bed wetting, playing with matches, or playing with the parents lighter etc. But there are degrees that are important.

As far as fights go, what are we talkiing about, knife fights yesterday? Or the kind if fist fights a tom girl might get into like a boy? The kind that boys get into all the way through college and beyond?

Most of the rest of the posts are meaningless because they are based on the horror of mentally seeing a cat skinning and predicated on the belief that this girl cruises through the woods looking for small furry animals to ritualy abuse in the finest tradition of Dr. Evil! Or as some have you compared her: the Jeffrey Dahmer's and Ted Bundy's of the world.

Again she must have been superhuman because giving my cat a bath used to spark major feline rebellion.

It sounds like the girl isn't very popular and is certainly not well liked in some circles, although she thought well enough of you, maggieaxid to send you an email asking for your adivce and help.
It also sounds like people have enjoyed spreading some rumours behind her back, engage in a little character assassination. We should all know by now how bad that can be and how even little things can grow and become viscious and cruel.

OBviously you are closer to the situation than we are but if I can think of some of these arguments in a couple seconds, they are pretty obvious. So its up to you how you would vote and maybe more importantly what rational reason you use to come to a decision.

One of the questions I'll ask myself if I don't like someone but have to judge them is, "what would be my approach if they were my best friend? Or if I barely knew them?" I take the opposite with my good friends in business settings.

So if you are interested in being fair I would say this: If you have honest first hand recent and compelling information that makes you belief that this girl is a direct physical danger to other human beings then you should proactively right a no-rec.

If not, you have a dilemna, especially because you have admitted to us you don't like the girl regardless of your justification. Under this condition I would say that you should just tell her honestly that you don't feel comfortable writing a rec for someone that you don't have a current personal relationship with that lets you judge them on today versus yesterday.

As for many of the rest of you, I would hate to be tried in the Court of Public Opinion if you were my judges and my prosecutor wanted to paint me badly. Many of you don't ask many questions, look deeper, seek clarification, or even qualify your comments based on the possibility that the person relating a story to you might be partly or totally wrong. All someone would have to do is come on here and say that James kicked a cockerspaniel to death, it was the talk of the town, and I would become the evil one.

Thank you for your time.

James

I almost agree with you, except for one thing. When considering women we do or do not want in our organization, reputation is very important. Granted, sometimes a woman gets a rep she does not deserve. However, we consider it anyway.

For example, if a known slut rushes your chapter, you do not pledge her. You don't investigate whether she has actually slept around. Even if she had a close friend in the house that could dispute all the rumors, you still wouldn't pledge her if it made the organization look bad.

Wow. That is all I can really say.

I agree with reputation being a big part of how we recruit. As a NPC sorority on campus, we stake our recruitment and future recruitment for that matter on our reputation.

I would give her a moral objection. Which in the terms my chapter uses, means any girl that if made a member of your sorority, would make you not want to be a member anymore. Enough said.

{ HUGS }

It will all work out.

Greek Love,

Lil Snakey K

Re: Re: Someone to tell your chapter about before recruitment
 

If you DID kick a cocker spaniel to death, you would be The Evil One.

I am (and I think everyone else is also) taking maggieaxid at her word and offering our suggestions and ideas based upon the information she provided. I assume that she is telling the truth, and I what I try to do here on greekchat is offer my input based upon the information provided to me. It is not my job to be the "trier of fact" and get both sides of the story here; it is my job to respond as I see fit to what people have posted. So, if this person did what maggieaxid said she did, I would not want to be her sister, and I would want someone who knew these things to warn me ahead of time. That is the answer to the question that was asked.

As for my ranting about animal abuse -- this is a VERY important issue in our world, and I will take any chance I get to say something about it.

I do agree with much of what you said James. But, back to DeltaBaby's post. Reputation is one of the biggest factors when considering someone for a sorority. If a sister stands up and says, "I personally know this girl and she's a slut" we will most likely go with what she said and cut the girl. We meet these girls for only a couple of days and for only 15 minutes. There is no way to determine in that time if the girl is a slut or if she's mentally stable. So, we base our opinions on people we know and trust...our sisters. This is why chapters have survived so many years...because we have trusted our sisters and cut girls that could be potentially threatning to the chapter. Now, whether this girl really did skin a cat...I don't know. But, should I take the risk of letting her into my sorority? No way. What happens if maggieaxid was right and this girl has another incident? Not only will it make maggie look awful but the axid chapter as well. It only takes one girl to create a reputation for the chapter....good or bad.

In my opinion this doesn't have a bloody damned bit to do with the precious "reputations" of a chapter...if this little Ms. Dahmer to be came through rush, I would be afraid for my sisters' SAFETY. I mean would you want to live with someone who could commit a crime like that? "Reputation" would be the LAST thing on my mind.

Let's think about what really is important here people...taking care of each other and protecting each other, not something as shallow as what other people think.

James,

according to Maggie's statement -she said "she knew" that this girl did this, not I heard that she did this or I think she did this-she said she knew. I suggest you read her statement more carefully before replying next time-she did not say she "heard this". Unfortunately, it does not sound like this girl was arrested and given a trial which should have been done-but rather received "a slap on the wrist" by the police-also in her statement.
There was no trail, no jury. I f you HAD kicked a cocker spaniel then you would be arrested and put on trail and if you had done this believe me I would be the star witness to help prosecute your a$$. Maggie is asking for our opionion and we gave it to her. If you don't like it that is your rt. Maybe you should come and spend some time at my clinic to see the abused animals. I guarantee that it is much worse than keying a guys car or pissing in the bed. We have a cat killer currently in Austin-they skin the cats and dismember them (oh by the way James people don't hold them down usually -they either kill them and then skin them or render them unconscious with blunt trauma or chemical restraint).

I completely agree with both ZTAngel and 33girl. The bottom line with what everyone is saying is that, maggieaxid, your sisters are going to trust your reasons for not wanting this girl, for reputation AND safety reasons. Go with your instincts, maggie. Your sisters will thank you for it. If you don't think she should be a part of your chapter, no matter what the reason, then give her a no-rec. Simple as that. Good luck and Xi Love.;)

I used to burn ants with a magnifying glass but that was a scientific experiment.

Ok,
Let me just make a few more comments in relation to what people are saying and then I am done with this topic. First let me say my sensitivity to this issue I think is with the fact that I be graduating with my BS RN soon, and then Hopefully:) starting medical school. So this is where I draw my opinions are experience.
First of all Im sorry for people who disagree, but mental illness is an illness, JUST LIKE CANCER OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF ABNORMALITY, INSTEAD OF BEING AN ABNORMALITY in let's say the breast, one may have one in the brain. Of course besides the typical front lobal abnormalities, lack of serotonin or what have you, which people Im sure if they had their way would not be born with but they have no choice, there is the child abuse, physical and mental that can lead to such behaviors. Let us say the girl in question here suffers from a chemical imbalance, or let's say she was abused, let's say she has had complications in her mind and life that none of, well a fraction of you may never even encounter.
Now let's say she terribly did this to this animal, which I love LOVE animals too, I too once desired to be a vet before deciding on family medicine.
She obviously is disturbed, Im not disputing with anyone there. But I think a certain amount of compassion and devils advocate roles should be looked at from some.
If she has done these things she needs help, I find it really quite offensive that people are so freely thrashing someone with such problems. Too sit here and say how crazy, or psychotic she is, and how she could never and should never be integrated into society, well that reminds me of a time when lobotomies were routine and people in psych wards were chained up. Terrible terrible times.
I think you are right, she needs help, but I think a more appropriate way to handle this type of issue in a way that will help all parties concerned is maybe sit down with your advisor, or the greek advisor one on one, and talk to her/him about this issue and how you feel this girl would be a threat, maybe you could suggest treatment if none has been sought and it can be communicated that way. but I think to act like someone's mental illness is like running around to let everyone know who had a one night stand last night is very very wrong. I just think the way it can be handled could be a lot more professional.
Ok Im not going to argue on this anymore, bc I dont see it as an arguement. I know what I know is true, and I can only hope the best for your chapter, and hopefully for this handicapped girl.

Deltajas,

These parents are in profoundly deep denial. I guarantee that if maggie were to go to them and suggest that their precious darling might need treatment, they'll be screaming, "We'll sue you for suggesting such a thing!" I would stake my life on it. If they'd gotten her into treatment, she wouldn't have done the more recent things that she did.

This is exactly why in hundreds of school districts around the country, teachers aren't even allowed to hint to a parent that his/her child might benefit from Ritalin, much less anything more serious.

I want you to note that the women who are saying that they would go for the no-rec have been alums for some time. We aren't catty students who love to cut. We've been around for awhile and seen the havoc that one person can wreak on a chapter and its members and I think that none of us would be willing to sacrifice our chapters' reps so that a girl with a bad rep can have a second chance. Or in this case, twentieth chance.

I know you are not going to argue any more or debate, but I just had to say that I again disagree with you, mental illness is not like cancer. Abusing animals is not a sign of cancer and cancer patients genarally do not abuse animals or kill humans.. I am not saying all mentally ill people do these kind of things, as I said in my previous post I have delt with mental illness all my life with my dad and other family members and luckily they have never hurt anyone or anything physically I should say, emotionally is a different story. I also know from experience that mentally ill people sometimes chose not to take their medication which does not help them and again can put society at risk. If cancer patients don't take their medication they will likely die. To bad no one caught on to how psychotic Jeffrey Dahmer was when he was younger could have saved many lives.

Hmmm...
 

If someone with "mental illness" skins a cat, stabs a woman or beats a man to death, is the cat, the woman or the man any less dead than if the killer was "normal"?

Is the physical pain during the commission of these acts any less because the person has a "mental illness"?

Is the terror that the cat, woman and man feel while they're being tortured any less because the person responsible has a "mental illness"?

Do the owners of the cat and the loved ones of the man and woman hurt or grieve any less because the person that did these things has a "mental illness"?

I'm sorry, maybe I'm not a cool liberal chick, but my compassion lies with the victims. I don't want to hear how Janey was abused as a child or is bi-polar and therefore she should be granted free reign to terrorize society at will.

PS I'd personally send that no-rec as fast as humanly possible so as not to take the chance of exposing my sisters to that creature.

I completely agree with you Tracy:)

I share James' curiosity into how she could be physichally capable of killing the cat. No pun intended.

Are you kidding?? Overnight the no-rec!!

An 8th grader is around 13 years old. Even if 4 years have passed, unless she is in therapy, she most likely hasn't changed. And if her parents truly believe she can do no wrong, chances are she *hasn't* been in therapy. People can change, but from what I've read here, that probably isn't the case.

And James, it doesn't take a lot of physical strength to hold down a small cat, particularly if it's been declawed - sad as I am to say it. :(