The Confederate Flag
 

This is all so cliche`.

I see Ms. Caddell's point. There is a rich history and those who display the flag (including Blacks) are not automatically racist. However, she knows that she now lives in an historically and predominantly Black neighborhood. Respect the environment and the overarching culture of this environment. The fact that she refuses to do so, as far as I'm concerned, is a display of white privilege.

Many Blacks who see the Confederate Flag do a double-take at least to see who is displaying the flag. Most Blacks, who live in areas where people still display the flag, have learned to ignore it. This is not a matter of a misunderstanding. The Confederate Flag does represent the negative despite its rich history and how proud some people are of it.

The neighbor who threw a rock at her porch is a complete dumbass.

It's incredibly common in the south, and usually denotes something more along the lines of "southern pride" than blatant racism. I still think it's absurd. Anyone else seen the truly immense one flying on I-75 just north of the Florida state line? It's freakin HUGE

This line

made me lol. The wording of it, I mean.

Anyway, I cosign all of this:

and would further say that this issue stopped being about her right to fly a flag on her property when she antagonistically elevated it over the fence line. She needs her white privilege bubble burst.

Sure, she has a right to fly it. I wouldn't. It's always nice to be respectful of your neighbors and compromise. They built the fence, leave the flag where it is; no need to raise it higher.

I just knew that this was in SC before I even clicked on the article :rolleyes:

You've said everything that I would have said...only better

Meh. Whenever I see a Confederate flag, my first thought is, "get over it." But then again, I live up North, and people here primarily use them to alert others that they are a huge racist and if a black person steps foot on their property, they are going to put their machine gun on "burst."

I work in a rural area, and the whole racism thing is an undercurrent in life there. I'm white, but I've never had a positive encounter with someone who was, in any way, sporting a Confederate flag. Those site visits usually don't end well, because such people don't usually have enlightened views about anything- the government, women, the list just goes on.

I can understand the whole Southern Pride thing...to a point. I'm proud that I'm a German-American, but I also understand flying a Nazi flag probably wouldn't be the best way to go about expressing this pride. I just think that the Confederate flag is something that offends or bothers so many people (black and white), so find another emblem.

Most people in this part of the country understand the difficult history and choose something else. Others keep it around, perhaps even BECAUSE it offends people- like "screw you, I don't care if you are offended, here is my flag!" Basically sounds like the lady in this article fits this category...That's what I have a problem with, knowing it offends someone based on a very traumatic history, and still blazing on and insiting on sticking it in everyone's faces...

I'd like to see her try that little stunt in a city up North.

^This entire post is pretty much spot on.

If you fly a Confederate flag above the Mason-Dixon, you'd better be able to whip out your great great great grandpa's commendation from the Confederate army - i.e. show me that it really is an honoring history thing - or I'm just going to assume you're a racist dickhead. And I'll usually be assuming right.

Are you saying the outcome would be different?

Yeah, I was just going to say before others did, up here (in the North) it means you are racist. Flying that above the mason-dixon would make you a pariah.

Co-sign this:
But I feel the need to point out -- there is no such thing as the Confederate flag. There were three national flags of the Confederate States of America before the war was over. There was also the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, which became known as the Confederate Battle Flag. This seems to be the one that can be seen in the picture, and it is similar but not identical to the flag typically called "the Confederate flag" (or the Rebel flag) -- which ironically was never a national flag of the CSA, though it did serve as a naval jack for a few years. It was this flag that the KKK and other groups latched onto.

Happy to meet you, winter. Hope you can regard this as a positive encounter.
I am a non-racist bearer of C.S.A. flags - although I favor the 3rd National myself.
One of my many C.S.A. ancestors was Captain David Cartwright Jackson, but I can show you my U.D.C. card if need be, 33girl.
I was a featured speaker at a Sam Davis Camp this summer - my topic was southern linguistics. It's not always just about The War - in many, many cases - including the many learned (as in university professors and PhDs I know through SCV, UDC and LOS) ladies and gentlemen I know in heritage groups - it is also about southern culture.(Not an oxymoron) After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.
Other than that, I don't want to disrupt the southern hate-in developing here, and I am going to resolve to stay away from news and politics. She flew the flag, the neighbors didn't like it, they built the fences, she didn't like it, she made sure she could continue to exercise her free speech rights. I don't get why this is "news". Happy stereotyping.

Co-sign all of this, too.

I agree about the stereotyping of Southerners. My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

Thanks, nerd. ;)

Thank you, SWTXBelle. Very well said. I do not like the use of "all" for such things. There are people (nonracists and racists) who display one of (:p @ MysticCat) the Confederate Flags above the Mason-Dixon line with outcomes that do not differ from what would happen below the Mason-Dixon line.

News stories will only cover the controvery when people are around those who disagree with them. News stories will not cover the day-to-day of people displaying flags across the country with little to no backlash.

With that said, this particular woman was being an asshole and doing it to prove she has the right to do it.

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

That neighbor was being an asshole.

I have much love for the Black Panther Party. I wouldn't display flags and symbols for the BPP in our cul de sac community in which we are the only Black family. Those white neighbors do not want to hear about the history and the relevance of the BPP. Those white neighbors would contact HOA and would stop having cul de sac cookouts. LOL.

Power to the People.
http://web.mac.com/christiandavenpor...es/bpplogo.jpg

Also co-signing, along with MysticCat's questioning why one would purposely do something that would cause hate among the neighbors.

These discussions are always interesting to me, growing up north of the Mason-Dixon line with a mother named Dixie Lee. I couldn't begin to count how many people have asked me what her real name was, or why was she named Dixie Lee - especially since I have biracial foster cousins. To my knowledge, no ancestors of mine ever owned any slaves. I have never flown a Confederate Flag, except while doing a historical retrospective of vexillology in America.

When my mother & I were invited to our first event with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, we had mixed emotions. We finally decided that, unless we saw the "why". This answers the question:


"I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American, and I feel that I was greatly favored by inheriting a birthright for both."

Written by Mary Nowlin Moon (Mrs. John)

That said, while I'm proud of all of my ancestors, Northern, Southern or whatever, I wouldn't fly the flag if I knew it caused grief. I have some little ones, souvenirs of the above-mentioned project, but they stay inside (next to a funny photo of Tyra!). Isn't there a biblical verse about not causing your neighbor to sin?

Yup.

Oh don't even get me started on HOAs! I detest them. :p

And yes, I'm a nerd --please see my location. (And when I feel the need to fly something "Southern," I use the old state flag. Hardly anybody has a clue what it is.)

Meanwhile, major props to honeychile for using the word "vexillology."

Last year one of my students wrote an column in our school paper about the same time that Terry Jones was calling for the quoran burning writing that even though one may have the right to do something, does that mean that it's morally or ethically correct? He was writing about the "just because you can do something, does it mean you should" principle. He is very well read and writes eloquently, and comes from an interesting background: Dad is a presbyterian pastor, Mom is a social worker and step mom is a PhD who is a retired professor at a theological seminary. His column definitely started some good dialog at school. This story reminded me of his column and some of the discussions the kids had surrounding the Jones incident.

I hate HOA's too! But my mother loves it. I think its an encroachment on your personal property rights, but you do choose to live in a HOA community. Blech.

I like good HOAs. I hate bad HOAs. Some neighborhoods would go straight to hell if they didn't have HOAs because you would have to trust that the residents share a consensus on a lot of things. Personal property rights can infringe upon community property and the rights of others.

Ten thumbs up to this. Anyone who wants to respect Confederate history without invoking segregationist terror has an array of flags to choose from. The KKK never lynched anyone while flying Bonnie Blue. So if you decide to fly the one they did use...as far as I'm concerned, the racist message is loud and clear.

I really don't get it. I have gratitude to all my ancestors, but if I find out that any of them fought on behalf of the Leninists back in Russia, I won't be flying their hammer-and-sickle flag. I won't call myself a Daughter of the October Revolution, even though I technically won't be able to help it. Even if they made selfless sacrifices on behalf of their ideals, even if the Tsar was an autocrat who starved his people, even if I love Russian culture, I couldn't be proud that my family fought in the army to establish the Soviet system. Interesting historical fact, sure...but proud of that? No.

What exactly do HOAs do? Just maintain the neighborhood? I guess what I'm asking is what you get out of it, other than a nice looking neighborhood and maybe a pool or kids' park or something.

Yes, but something about people telling me what i can do with my property bothers me. But I understand it is important that there be rules since bad neighbors can decrease your home's value, people want them so things are regulated, etc.

Pretty much. They try to make sure "rogue homeowners" don't lower the property values in neighborhoods.

A lot of them tend to go a bit too far, though, particularly in Texas. I remember reading about someone getting fined because he had a pickup truck in a "luxury car neighborhood." He was told to park in the garage, but because the truck was so large, it wouldn't fit. He was charged fines monthly.

I myself have never had any strong opinions about this topic but comparing the Nazi Flag to the Confederate flag is just out there. Germany has a beautiful flag...fly that to show your ethnic pride. Only a neo-nazi skinhead would fly the swastika.

I know I'm wired differently than most of you here, but I'd rather see people sporting their nazi, gang, bpp, racist, anti-government, greek, etc, para than try to hide who they really are. It's all about the situational awareness. I had a couple move into the apt above mine recently and the guy has a symbol on his truck that is commonly used by a local gang. Doesn't bother me because now I know to watch my back around this guy. I understand how people can be offended if they see an offensive (to them) symbol everytime they look out their window but if some guy has confederate flag or gang symbol on his bumper....who cares? The guy just did you a favor by broadcasting to you that he's trouble.

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...QgQVKaKcmgTbRg

Not this form of the swastika

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...astika.svg.png


/turning into MysticCat



You do not know how we are wired. :)

Someone who sports the Confederate Flag is not automatically "trouble." Such labeling of people is problematic because it is above and beyond the labeling of the items themselves. It is different than a gang symbol and a Nazi symbol.

And only an idiot would sport a gang symbol on his bumper, if that's true. The police better be watching him.

I was thinking that flying the Nazi flag is not how I would show my Germanic pride. Perhaps more along the lines of the German Confederation flag as that what was probably flying when my forebears departed those shores

Really? Even though both were used in living memory during the 20th century to display the bearer's support for a nationwide campaign of race-based intimidation, expulsion, and murder? You don't see any parallel? What was the Holocaust but lynching on an industrial scale?

I wish the confederacy had gone with the flag with the crescent and palmetto on it. I wonder if the people who use the flag now as a symbol of "white pride" would feel as comfortable using it with a "muslim" symbol on it

Absolutely agree with Low C Sharp here.

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

My father is half German and there was a time many years ago when distant relatives from Germany wanted to get in touch. It was easy enough to figure out that they had been Nazis. My father's reaction was "they're not my f***ing relatives!"

EXACTLY. I think people just make excuses and hide behind "those were the times" type of rhetoric. Family or not, heritage or not...wrong is wrong, today and yesterday.

Exactly. I defend her right to fly the flag but just because someone *can* do something, it doesn't mean they *should* do it. It sounds like she was just trying to get a rise out of her neighbors to me.

Thanks for clarifying but given the context of the conversation if someone couldn't differentiate the type of swastika I was referring to they should probably log off :D



I was speaking very generally there. Like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't see the Confederate flag as something of pride nor oppression... I'm quite indifferent to the topic. I personally don't think that they are trouble, nor do I hold the Confederate flag in the same regard as Nazi or gang symbolism. Some on the other hand (as evident from some of the replies to this thread) do though.

It's quite true. It's how they identify themselves fellow gang members or to rival gang members that a certain car's load or occupants is being protected. It's not the "typical" gang signs that are displayed but rather more innocuous symbols such as

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...to/monster.png
http://www.greenfarmparts.com/v/vspf...eere-parts.jpg
http://www.famouslogos.org/logos/ferrari-logo.jpg
http://th117.photobucket.com/albums/..._Budweiser.jpg
And yes, law enforcement is aware of that these symbols are being used.

Srsly, those have all ended up manipulated on unfortunate Rush t-shirts.


http://images.eonline.com/eol_images...ard.121008.jpg

This is how I like to see the "Confederate Flag" with Bo, Luke, and Daisy Duke, oh and maybe Flash the hound dog. I'm in hot pursuit! Not that hot mess with Jessica Simpson, ewwww.

Forreal though, my eldest sister had some Tiger Beat pictures of John Schneider. I remember when she got married and moved out we found some of Ponch from CHiPS, but she was far more into Larry Wilcox.

As terrible as both were I do believe that you are comparing molehills to mountains. The Klan (whom I'm assuming you are referring to in regard to the Confederate flag) has historically always been a small right wing fringe group in regards to the general American populace (if they were so well respected or welcomed in the community they wouldn't need to wear hoods;)). While there have been a few state governors, U.S. Congressman, Senators, and local elected officials who had been members or sympathizers to the cause of the KKK, the U.S. government never had a state sponsored policy or practice of genocide of anyone post Civil War. The Third Reich, on the other hand did, and not just in Germany but any European country they rolled through. Two thirds of all European Jews, millions of Polish, Russian, homosexuals, disabled people, religious minorities, etc..... 17 million total in just a few years.

I'm not trying to have a battle of atrocities with you, but to compare a Confederate to a Nazi is a comparing a molehill to a mountain.

Seriously, some gangbangers are using the John Deere logo? I am SOOOOO laughing out loud right now. I am from the heart of John Deere country and I keep thinking of my BIL as a secret gang banger instead of a corn and soybean farmer.

Also not having a dog in this fight, I think if you want to express your southern pride there are about 10,000 ways you can do it besides waving a rebel flag, which as discussed above isn't even technically an official conferate flag. Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Why would you want to celebrate your southern'ness in such a hateful and negative way?

My husband used to work with a Jewish guy (yes, here in Dubai) whose family apparently were slave owners somewhere in the south, although they are currently and for some time from the San Francisco area. He feels the need to display the rebel flag and brag that Jews were slave owners too. Wow. Good for him. But he's exactly that guy. People are going to be nice to him even though he's in a place where I'd try to keep it on the downlow, but is a huge Star of David around his neck necessary? Only if you're TRYING to cause trouble. And that's all the rebel flag does as far as I'm concerned.

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

It's more than just slavery, violence, rape and murder. The rebels did have some legitimate reasons to want to break from the Union other than to commit...rape, murder, torture, genocide.....