"Taking someone else's spot"
 

I've seen the above several times in the past few days:

"I turned down my bid because I didn't like this group and didn't want to take someone else's spot."

"If you hate the sorority that much, drop because you are taking someone else's spot."

It kind of got me thinking: is this really true? It seems to be completely discounting the sorority's preference when saying this. If they liked someone else more, they would have put them first and offered them a bid before they offered it to the dissatisfied person.

And for groups that aren't making quota, I think it's a moot issue because they still have 'spots' regardless of whether the PNM accepts the bid or not. I've always felt like it's more of an issue that a disappointed/negative/miserable PNM brings down the rest of the women in her pledge class as well as the chapter members, rather than an issue that she is 'taking up a spot', especially because this seems to come up more often with smaller chapters that have other 'spots' available. Just my $0.02.

I think people use this a bunch when it suits their situation. It makes them feel better when they turn down a bid to a group they're not connecting with. And for "us" (the peanut gallery) it's a way to remind the potentially rude NM that there are women out there who love that group.

My guess is with QA's these days, if there are two ladies who are down to their only possible choice, XYZ: (A) ranked XYZ as a 3 at pref, but wasn't high enough on ABC or DEF's lists (her 1 and 2) (B) SIPed XYZ.

...and XYZ only has "1" spot, my guess is that they're both probably going to get it via QA.

I think while it may not always be likely, it is always certainly possible.

It' kinda like telling a child that won't eat her peas that there are starving children in Africa, ie. Be grateful for what you have.

33girl, you need to clear out your message box!

Yes, yes, and yes.

In another thread, a PNM was using the term "backup" which I thought was great. "Here are my favorites, and here is my backup"

So what happens if a rushee goes to, say, 10 chapters, is supposed to rank her top 7 for the next day, but only lists 5?

If the system won't let her do that, is it really "mutual" selection?

I think that's a bit of a different situation, DGTess. In that scenario, she's not listing chapters she'd be OK getting a bid with - she's ranking chapters that she visited that day in order of preference. The whole "taking someone else's spot" thing comes into play when chapters and PNMs are offering and accepting bids and they have to deal more directly with quota.

Frankly, if she's so repulsed by the thought of having a full schedule and getting the opportunity to learn more about chapters other than her favorite five that she'll deliberately leave two off... Well, that's the kind of attitude that, in some (not all, but some) cases, is indicative of the "I'm-better-than-them" attitude that isn't very good for any chapter. It's not as if accepting an invitation to the next round of parties means she'll be committed to joining the two chapters she didn't want to list, and it gives her more options if she ends up not being invited back to her top five.

Recruitment is, in my opinion, about providing the maximum amount of opportunities to the maximum amount of people possible. If PNMs are not happy with the chapters they get invited back to, they can always drop out entirely, but it's really not fair to leave off chapters that you could be visiting before giving them a fair chance.

Yes, it is. And I'll tell you why I think that.

The chapters issue the invitations. Just like you do to any function you have at your house. And based on their availability of schedule" and "level of interest," your guests accept or decline. So someone who isn't so interested still gets an invite because YOU want them there. However, they may not have room in their schedule for an event at that time so they decline. They still think you're on OK person so you still make their friend/co worker list but maybe not well enough to rearrange their schedule to accomodate an event at your house. No one with any manners would tell you that they just don't want to come to your house. And neither would the PNMs whom we consider to be young ladies. And if they do, then we know what happens then!

That's always the way I've looked at it. I may not make the invite list because I'm friend number 215 and the church only holds 200 for a wedding. That's fine. I may decline the wedding invitation because frankly your events are never any fun or I can't afford a gift. But that's OK too. None of this means we can't be friends...

I know. :( It's clean!!

I'm trying to understand. As some have kindly* noted before, my rush was not what many go through now.

A closer analogy to what I'm seeing is everyone on my street having an open house on the same day, and inviting everyone in the neighborhood. There are some who don't want to come to my house, or to my neighbor's house, but want to visit everyone else. Why should that person have to visit the homes s/he doesn't want to? Seems to me that rush is the same way. Just because there are 8 time slots for parties and someone gets invitations to 8 parties, why must she go to all 8? Wouldn't "mutual" selection dictate that both sides get to "cut"?

Returning to chapters =/= joining chapters

Returning to a chapter in which the PNM is not interested in doesn't bind her to anything. Listing a chapter she doesn't want on her MRABA will bind her to that chapter if she is matched with it.

I understand it doesn't feel very mututal to PNMs who are "forced" to return to chapters they may not want, but at the end of the day, no one is forcing them to join. College Panhellenics simply want PNMs to have every opportunity to see their realistic options.

Absolutely 100% agree. If you feel a successful rush is one in which you never had to open your eyes beyond your "favorite" chapter going into recruitment, your Greek experience is going to be so much less than what it could have been.

As KSUViolet said in the other thread though, it really needs to be explained to PNMs better. If someone told me I was cancelling my order from namearandomstore.com and it showed up on my door, of course I'd be pissed - even if it turned out the shirt that they sent me was way better than the other shirts from the other orders I got that day. Yes, it'll make it look like the sororities have all the power, but guess what? In some systems, where the majority of PNMs are concerned, THEY DO.

We disagree on so much, but dammit I agree with this.

Yeah but if you find out that the house you blew off because it didn't look fun or like a place you would hang out just happens to be where Lenny Kravitz's cousin lives and they were having a family reunion, you're really gonna feel like a jackass. :)

In the words of Victor Newman "ain't gonna happen!"

lol

Yes, and they both can. It's just that by going when you have the opportunity but not so much the desire that you open yourself to things you may not have seen before. "rush crush" applies on both sides of the aisle.

And they should visit all the houses in your neighborhood because it's the polite thing to do. Just as you all will be neighbors and therefore should have some knowledge of and level of friendship with each, PNMs will be members not only of the chapter they pledge but the overall PH community and getting to know them and what's meaningful to them is advantageous to all.

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

Oh noes, don't tread on me!

If it's going to kill you to visit and be polite at a chapter that you don't want to go to in order to stay in the recruitment process, you've got a lot to learn about getting what you want in life.

But she's not required to list it on her pref card in the end. They're coercing a girl to give something another look, not forcing her to join.

At a big/competitive recruitment like the one I went through, I think most PNMs would rather be able to say they have a full party schedule if possible, even if it means they have to attend parties at chapters they don't particularly like. It always feels nice to have the invites and feel desired.

I've got some in-between feelings here. I'd always rather go where I am truly wanted, so I'd rather have the chapters who actually want me invite me back and have a better idea of my realistic chances. So I really like a situation where women are given invitations and if they have more than they are supposed to they can choose and be given the option of using "regret" if they liked a chapter but had more invites than party slots. By not using regret then a chapter can see a woman is not interested and move on.

I also am torn about maximizing options to be available for QA or snap, as more often than not the woman has two chapters, one she wants to join and the other she doesn't. If a woman absolutely doesn't want to join the other chapter, that should be made clear for the sake of those chapters she doesn't want because it sucks to have women not show up on bid day, boo hooing, or just being negative. She'd still be eligible for COB but guess which chapters will likely be doing that, if at all.

I think the only time a "spot" is taken from a woman is during a bed rush, as mutual selection will keep women and chapters together through RFM, QA, and snap bidding.

Of course I truly believe in rush not before school starts, freshman not living in, and having events the first semester that are panhellenic and though not ideal for all campuses it could allow women to give chapters a chance and if they still only want XYZ and don't get it, they can't say the system cheated them as we could educate PNMs about the process for a whole semester/quarter.

How many stories do we read on here about women who didn't like ABC the first day and loved them the second day or even the third day? It happens ALL THE TIME.

Yes, the sorority women hold the whip hand. The PNMs want to think they have more control than they do, but they don't. Such is the nature of the beast. If you want a job, you jump through hoops. If you want to attend a certain school, you jump through hoops. If you want to join a sorority, you jump through hoops.

Welcome to life.

I've rushed women who did not want to be at my chapter and it stinks. No one likes dealing with a rude woman. But I still think the system works the best for everyone in the long run. I wish we had had RFM in place when I was in college. It might have made a huge difference on a campus where four chapters closed in a relatively short period of time.

Then you misunderstand. If she doesn't attend all she can she is not cut from recruitment. What happens is that she has not "maximized her options." Therefore, if she does not match to whoever she puts on her bid card she cannot be added as a quota addition. She may luck out and get her choice but she has no options if she doesn't. So it only applies at the end of recruitment insofaras how many options she has.

I haven't heard of a school where a PNM is allowed to skip parties (unless excused) during formal recruitment without being released entirely.

Same kind of thing happens within a chapter when they are deciding whom to invite to pref. Some members fear the legacies are going to "take someone else's spot." For a chapter that historically doesn't pledge quota -- this is not an issue.

I haven't heard of one that does. If they do release her from recruitment for failure to accept an invitation they should be reported to their NPC Area Adviser. The requirement in the Green Book for Quota Additions states that
"this procedure shall never include a woman who lists an Intentional Single Preference on her Membership Recruitment Acceptance Agreement or one who has failed to accept or attend any membership recruitment event for which there was room in her membership recruitment schedule.

So obviously, she can decline to attend if they have to say what to do with her at bid matching.

I'm not talking about QAs at all. What is to prohibit a College Panhellenic from requiring PNMs to attend all events for which they have room in their schedule? Otherwise, way more PNMs would ditch parties.

Well, we now know a pretty decent case where this happened. Melinda Warren's story (the great Harry Potter one) where her friend Parvati had a bid to Slytherin and had to later turn it down, and Melinda went bidless. Now, Melinda was dropped from the system before pref, so it's a little different. However, all Melinda had before that was Slytherin, so she could have (in theory) had that bid that Parvati had taken

Neither am I. It says what to do with ANY woman who fails to attend events on ANY day. Again I say, if they are making any woman who fails to accept an invitation leave recruitment, they should be reported.

Granted, it causes problems so they make the PNMs think they have to attend them all or they will get, at the least, ostracized. And they should. We all know that the ones you love on Day 1 are not necessarily those you love on Day 3. But reality and perception are two different things.

Perhaps PNMs are strongly encouraged to attend all parties because you don't want to blow your QA eligibility early on in the game by ditching a party. You might be in a situation where you do like all three chapters and rank them all, but you can't be a QA if you ditched a round 2 party.

The thing is, the way the system works is some people put in a bid on some of the houses in the neighborhood, and so the sellers take them off the market because they are likely to be sold soon. Then, there are less houses on the market for sale, but the potential new homeowner still wants to 'live in that neighborhood' so she has to visit the houses that didn't overwhelm her with joy at first, because she still wants to live there. Note, she does not have to live in that neighborhood, and can go elsewhere at any time. But if she wants to buy a house in that community, she will follow their rules. It is to make sure all the houses get sold, in effect, and that more people can become homeowners.

Obviously this is not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea. It's to maximize placement. Often young women will think that they are above a certain chapter and because recruitment is such a stressful and first impressions based time that PNMs often make snap decisions not knowing all the facts. The reason RFM works the way it does it to give that young woman a little more time (and a little more information) on which to base that decision, because for whatever reason that PNM may have not wowed the sorority that she had originally favored. There can be mistakes made on both sides (bad first impressions, etc), but mostly, the system works. And now more women are getting placed in homes, so overall it seems to be working the way it was intended to, even if it isn't perfect.

I thought with RFM, if you made it to pref, you weren't taking anyone's spot - that there were spots for all

There are...it's just an excuse to keep from admiting the truth...

Talking invites here, not bids/MRAA etc.

From the Green book: (Page 83, 15th addition)
Doesn't seem to be any reason to report anyone. Where are you getting that?

My $0.02...

At my school, if you skip a party, you are released from recruitment.

I understand that it doesn't seem like mutual selection if a PNM can't cut, but the chances of her being happy if she gives her lower ranked groups another shot with an open mind are significant, I think.

I think if she is going to for sure decline the bid, she should suicide, because it is taking a spot from another girl.

Nobody has brought up the other side of the equation, though.

Under RFM, chapters are also STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to issue the number of invites allowed them under RFM. If chapters under-invite, I believe the GL office is supposed to notify the national organization.

Now, I don't think chapters are required to have a bid list of a certain length, but in the early stages, chapters may be taking a second look at PNM's who didn't excite them at first if their dream girls don't choose to return.

There are "spots" i.e. bids, for all girls who go to pref... but those spots may or may not be with the chapters that they want to join or will accept a bid from.