A disconnect with legacies?
 

Each year when recruitment begins, I think about how to improve the experience of legacies and how to educate collegiate chapters on how to deal with them.

In my mind, there seems to be a disconnect for many collegians -- while actives dream of the day they might share Chi Omega with their daughters and "knit booties in red and yellow" (as one of our song lyrics says) -- sometimes it's quite easy not to give an alum's daughter a fair chance in the process.

I do realize that all legacies are not created equal. They come with varying qualifications as well as mothers or sisters who are not dedicated alumnae, but I do feel that each legacy deserves a fair shot.

Former National President, Kirk Cocke Hassell refered to legacies as the "diamonds in our own back yard."

Over the years, I have spoken to many excited mothers and many who were heart-broken. I truly do support the active chapter's right to select their own members -- just as we alumnae did when we were in school, but I'm asking that they make sure they've given that legacy a fair chance and not release her simply because she "looked around the room" or "seemed shy."

We all love hearing the stories of young alumnae rocking their babies to sleep singing beloved sorority songs. We give stuffed animals representing sorority mascots to our friends daughters. We enjoy seeing toddlers wearing the t-shirts exclaiming, "I'm a Chi Omega Legacy."

Let's just hope that our collegiate Sisters will weigh all of this when sitting in selection sessions and choosing their new members. A good and fair chance is all I'm asking.

I wish I knew the answer. I guess we all have those songs we sing to our legacies and all the baby legacy clothing-"Future ABC".

And yet we have all those legacies at big schools now, far more than a pledge class can hold--

And you're also right about the lame reasons that some chapters have cut legacies. The lamest one I head recently: "We heard her best friend "Sarah" was in another sorority and we thought she'd go there. What? "Sarah" isn't Greek? Oh well."

It's all so complex and disturbing.

I will stick my neck out here and say I know that if my daughter does not have the "right look" when it is time for her recruitment that legacy won't mean anything at numerous schools. She can have a dream resume' and I can be the most active alum, but it all won't matter. I have already prepared myself years ago. I still have hope.

I honestly think the "more legacies going through than quota" is not very often true. Honestly, even with Chi Omega (the largest NPC group) it is simply not often the case.

Your point about EDUCATION is spot on!

Over the last 30 years, our sororities have grown so much, think about the chapter sizes across the country in 1980 vs. 2010. This is great! And then think about when all of us start to have daughters. The problems we're seeing now at Arkansas and Ole Miss and places are going to become more widespread, and stickier for schools that already have these issues. Being a legacy will mean nothing, maybe it is even required to even be considered for membership! Triple and Quadruple legacies will be much more common. "In-House" legacies may have to take precedent.

My school was not saturated with legacies, but during Recruitment chapters were still wary of "wasting time" on another chapter's legacy, especially if it was a top chapter. This leads to legacy PNM's getting really pressured by dirty tactics to tell other people where they are going, and it's not fair.

All that being said, my mother being my sister is one of the greatest choices of my life, and I would feel so sad if it had turned out any other way. My mom probably would have pitched a hissy fit in "my honor" and been a nasty Alumna! It's hard to mothers who were active during such a different time to realize all the changes that have occurred, and I think Alumnae being more involved could really help the problem. If all the mothers were a part of an Alumnae Association and have been kept up to date from the beginning, things would be a lot easier. That being said, that is a very unrealistic goal!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: according to my observations, the alumna who throws the biggest hissy fit about her daughter being cut is typically the one who has been the LEAST involved in the sorority (not in an alumnae chapter, doesn't volunteer) and is the least familiar with our policy.

And re: in house legacies taking precedent:

We've discussed on here the concept of Super Legacies. Ex: children of highly involved alumnae and in-house legacies via a currently active sister receiving extra courtesies beyond the policy. The more I think about it, the more it may be a good idea (selecctive colleges and universities have been doing it forever.)

It will not come as a surprise to some of you that I've always been a *tad* competitive and one of my great joys was "stealing" other groups legacies! My best success was the granddaughter of one of the Phi Mu chapter's charter members!

I do recognize and agree with you that a "top rushing chapter" usually pledges their own legacies, but that never stopped me from trying!

KSU, but you just know that if a sorority had that policy, the major super legacy would be Miss Skank Ho of 2011 so maybe case-by-case is better. However, you've spoken of how the Chapter Rush Crush that everyone has to have often turns out to be a disappointment. Too true and it breaks my heart when a much sought-after PNM casually drops out of the chapter after several months and a legacy who would have been the best member ever was dropped in that same recruitment.

I'm all for everyone attempting to maximize legacy placement!

During the three years that I participated in rush as an active member, I often helped with the Panhel paperwork. All three years, Theta had over 100 legacies going through. One of the years, Kappa had over 100 legacies. Depending on the geographic area, certain chapters will always have a ton of legacies come through. One of the things that we did as a chapter was to invite legacies and PNMs with letters of rec to dinner or lunch at the chapter house. It helped us give the legacies extra consideration because we got to know them for a longer period of time in a less stressful setting.

Legacy means different things to different people. Speaking for those I know, most college-aged girls don't care if they are a legacy unless the chapter is one of the "top" chapters on the campus where they are attending. If they are a legacy to a struggling chapter, do you think there will be a bond? Absolutely not.

While I am friends with women who themselves are legacies (or in some cases double-legacies) and they joke about their daughters becoming triple legacies, it all depends on the individual or family.

I'm an acquaintance of a woman who was in one of the top chapters at Ohio State when I was there. While that chapter is still very strong, neither of her daughters even preferenced that sorority. Why? Things change over time and legacy isn't as important to everyone. I just remember when the first daughter pledged, the mother wrote on her FB page, "I told her she could pledge any chapter except ABC". I had to laugh because those two chapters plus the one that the daughters pledged were considered the three strongest at OSU when I was in school, and they were "rivals".

OK so the researcher jumps into the convo: need.more.data. Can't make a broad generalization.

As well as here at AZ. Without divulging specifics or crossing any lines, I can share that we have more than enough verified legacies registered for recruitment to take a quota of 70+.

I don't understand the bolded. Can you elaborate? Is this an informal recruitment/COB situation? If we did that in our current recruitment set-up, we'd be slapped upside the head with so many recruitment infractions we'd be seeing the Milky Way.

At Indiana, we have spring deferred rush that occurs in January before second semester starts. The chapters all have formal dinner at least 2 nights a week, many have 3 or 4. By formal dinner, I mean pin attire, china, waiters, prayer song the beginning, another song before dessert was served and then dismissed by house mother. During the first semester, we were not on silence. Silence did not start until the week before the open house round of rush. Until silence we could invite PNMs to dinner at the chapter house. We typically invited legacies, girls we had recs for, girls from other campus organizations, classes or hometowns. In fact, I hosted girls a lot. I had at least one guest a week during the whole first semester until silence. It was a commonly accepted practice there, all chapters did it. I attended dinner at several chapters before I rushed.

I know. And heaven knows, Miss Bowl Queen with a 2.0 is more desirable to many chapters than a normally attractive legacy with great activities and a 4.0, lol!

Part of the education of our sorority members has to be to instill a more panhellenic spirit. I believe myself second to none in my love for Gamma Phi. However, I know that each and every one of the other 25 NPC group could offer my daughters every bit as much love, leadership training, sisterhood and fun as Gamma Phi.

I still hope to get at least one Gamma Phi, but if I don't, I'm okay with that. My youngest wants to go to a school which doesn't have Gamma Phi, so she'll probably end up a ZTA, Phi Mu or Chi O (if really great recs and contacts count)- or maybe even one of the others. I would be thrilled no matter which one.

What about the legacies that clearly don't fit in with the chapter? Or the legacies with not-so-great GPAs and no activities. My chapter would definitely chose a gorgeous, 4.0 GPA, student leader over a legacy with mediocre grades, no activities, who doesn't seem especially interested in us. I think it goes both ways. Just because you're a legacy, doesn't mean you deserve to be a member of a chapter. Yes, we may give you the benefit of the doubt or an extra chance, but if a legacy doesn't click with us, we won't give her a bid.

At the school I help out with, it's always interesting to see what organizations have more legacies come through because it's listed on their registration. There are 2 organizations that always have 10-20 legacies come through every year, where as other chapters might only have about 5 max. This campus's quota is typically in the 30-45 range.

I have also seen PNMs not list their legacy affiliation because they either did not want to be part of that group on this campus or they felt that they wanted a fair shot at all groups. Then on bid day, you come to find out from an alum or the PNM herself that she was a legacy.

I also can't stand "legacy poaching". Mainly going after a legacy of your rival just because you want to screw them over. If the legacy really likes the other group than that's fine and it's her decision.

And that's all I'm asking.

This is something I try to educate my girls on every year. Just because a PNm is a legacy to another chapter on campus does not mean we give up on her. We just recruit her harder. Just like with us, she is not guaranteed a bid to her legacy chapter and she should be warmly recruited at our functions.

Quoted because I think it's awesome.

There is a relatively recent thread about NPC legacy policies. Most NPCs state that "An ABC legacy deserves serious consideration because she is familiar with ABC, has grown up in an ABC environment, etc." But, how much does JessicaLegacy really know about ABC if all her mom did was look at her ABC scrapbook and reminisce about her college days? Her mom did not display a lifelong commitment to ABC or even, truly, lifelong membership. There will probably come a time when those legacies are not as sought after.

The legacies a chapter works for will be the "mega-legs" (as coined by a Phi Mu in another thread)-those legacies whose mom is a dedicated alumnae member who served on boards, worked with collegiate chapters, was involved with the alumnae chapter, etc. MegaLegLindsey has grown up in an ABC environment, is familiar with ABC, and has seen true lifelong membership and dedication displayed to her.

MegaLegLindsey is the true definition of a legacy whereas JessicaLegacy is the exact opposite.

Which legacy deserves more consideration when there are more legacies than quota? I think the choice, for most chapters, is clear.

The sad thing is that many of us have seen many MegaLegLindseys cut for no discernible reason other than "she was looking across the room", etc.

my favorite explanation is :"we thought she would feel more comfortable elsewhere."

^^^I am almost speechless to those statements.

I know all NPCs have different policies, but aren't chapter advisers involved on some level when it come to legacies? If not, the adviser could at least council the chapter on how to consider legacies. Keeping MegaLegLindsey as long as a chapter can without having to bid her (ie--cut before prefs) is a courtsey, I think, was earned through her mom's dedication.

If I am able to continue to stay involved with AGD, I would hope my involvement would cause a chapter to give my (not yet conceived) daughter serious consideration.

This was a quote from a southern belle: "Her star would shine brighter in another chapter"

Or no chapter because everyone thought, especially since her mom was MegaAlum, that she would be pledging her legacy chapter.

that is what usually ends up happening, especially if the legacy chapter strings her along until the day before prefs and then releases her.

If the chapter is really not interested in the legacy, this would almost be worse. You're taking away a visit to a chapter that may love to have that woman and you are stringing her along.

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When I was president, we always reviewed the legacy policy at important points during recruitment and the subsequent membership selection process, but that was as far as I went to "force" it.

I think if a girl only gets a bid because she's a legacy, you start down a bad road. If Legacy has a bad experience in her chapter (because she really doesn't belong there), you risk alienating both her and her active mother or sister. It's better for her to find a fit where she truly belongs.

If that's the legacy chapter, wonderful. That's where I'm hoping my daughter(s) will end up. However, I'd rather have the opportunity to bond with my daughters over our fabulous experiences as sorority women than over a dismal experience as a member of my sorority.

Of course, there are obviously these cases and cases where the legacy isn't interested in the chapter. I was looking at it from the stand point that the chapter should make every effort to get to know the legacy. (And, now I'm remembering that most NPCs have in their policy that the legacy must be invited to at least one invitational round)

YES! This is a perfect way to put it.

I honestly think that at some of the chapters where you can fill a pledge class two or three times over with legacies, that it is probably VERY frustrating to the current members. They probably feel like they have no say in who their sisters are going to be. I can understand wanting to cut people just because you can.

Many legacies don't want anything to do with their legacy chapter, for a myriad of reasons. Many moms/sisters need to REALLY make sure that's not the problem before they get upset. Many moms/sisters don't, because little legacy hasn't been able to be truthful with them (or get a word in edgewise).

As far as giving a legacy whose mom has been more involved more consideration - what if mom died when legacy was 5? How does that work? Also - being involved with your sorority as a volunteer is not the only way to impress how wonderful Greek life is on your child. Two of my college friends have children (one boy, one girl) entering college this year, at campi where the GLOs they joined are. Neither of them has been particularly active in their GLO as an advisor or volunteer. HOWEVER - they both are STILL in daily contact with their brothers/sisters, after 20+ years. They define "lifetime brother/sisterhood." I have no doubt their children will want to pledge after seeing how much their parents have gotten from it. By this standard, though, they should get less of a look than someone whose parent volunteered.

I have been doing the recruitment gig for a REALLY long time and I will tell you that legacies are always a sticky subject. It does take a lot of education for the Chapter to understand what a legacy can do and be especially if the legacy's mom is still involved and active in the sorority. Being a legacy can sometimes be a kiss of the death for some women going through recruitment especially if they have that entitled attitude. At the end of the day it is up to the Chapter to decide who they want to bid for membership, but it is my belief that they should make that choice wisely.

There has been so many things that have changed over the years in regards to recruitment. A lot of Moms think that if your a legacy it is a guaranteed bid (is that how it was in the olden days of the 70's and 80's?). And for some reason there are some Moms who think if you have made it through round 3 that your a auto invite to pref? As much education that needs to go on with the Chapter the Moms need to educate their daughters. I'm amazed sometimes when legacies go through recruitment and we don't know it until they tell us in a recruitment party?!

I have received tons of calls over the years. One from the Mom who sent her daughter carnations the night before pref- we released her daughter after round 3. Or the one who thinks because their daughter is a legacy that they are automatically in- some of these are nice calls others not so nice. It always breaks my heart to get the calls from the Moms who are in tears over their daughters being released.

I have a daughter who is trying to decide right now if she wants to play volleyball or join a sorority in college. I don't care what she decides to do. If she does decide that she wants to be in a sorority I will educate her on the system. She will be fully prepared. If there is an AXO house we will make a visit and I will be in contact with the Advisor. She will also be armed with recs from every Chapter EVEN if it is on a non competitive campus. She will have all the tools she will need for a successful recruitment. Getting a bid to a Chapter will, however, be up to her. I will also tell you that it would be much easier for me to have my daughter release my Chapter then the other way around. I know my daughter is the total package and for her to be released from AXO would be a BIG bitter pill for me to swallow.

I feel exactly the same way. Of course I would love for my future daughter (who right now is an egg) went ADPi. But if she didn't, I'd be happy and completely support whichever chapter she chose. I'd be the surrogate ABC mom who is actually an ADPi. Just because ADPi was right for me doesn't mean it will be right for my daughter.

As for the legacies, when I was in AZ, I saw way to often legacies cut so bad because they listed their legacy status and most of the other chapters "assumed" that the PNM would "go her legacy chapter". That mentality is the hinderance. They shouldn't assume because she is a legacy she is going to go that chapter.

Can you imagine what Carnation's granddaughters would be wearing for a legacy t-shirt? There wouldn't be enough room on that toddler's shirt to list all of the sororities. LOL

That's a running joke around here! None of the grandbabies have any "Future ABC" clothes but the 2 granddaughters do have lots of panda and owl clothes, respectively.

My husband thinks that the Greek needlework is going to pull the wall down, though.

I was chatting with my former neighbor this morning while we volunteered at open house at school (lots of chat time!) and she told me that her daughter's chapter has 78 legacies coming through THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT! I think at this school, they are expecting quota to be around 70.

I'm really glad that my girls chose to attend a school where there was no Kappa chapter (unless they attended my alma mater, of course) because the pressure was totally off. However, it was hard for my younger daughter because she was an in house legacy, so she got dropped by almost everybody after the second day. Sometimes sisters are alike and sometimes they are totally different, so often the younger sister at the same school doesn't have a whole lot of options, especially if she is nothing like her older sister.

My daughter is participating in Auburn's recruitment this week.

Question: because so many sororities at Auburn are in the same boat (with more legacies going through than they could possibly absorb), do these chapters drop PNMs because they assume they are want to pledge their legacy sororities? Or do they "get" the fact that many of the girls can't join those chapters because it's mathematically impossible?

It never occurred to me to tell my daughter NOT to list her legacy information on her recruitment application.

But then, we're from a different area of the country. Silly, naive out-of-staters!!

In the recs I've written where the girls are legacies but completely open to joining a different sorority, I say so in the rec.

Not from the mid-80's anyway. Our policy, which I think still stands is they had to be invited back once. And this tells me that any mother who has a daughter going through recruitment now should not be so surprised or devastated at the process. Grandma, who did (I suppose this myth was true at SOME point in sorority history) keep all legacies, ok. Maybe she can be angry and confused, but Mom shouldn't be. ESPECIALLY if she was in the "top" chapter at super competitive southern school. These schools have been that competitive for YEARS and I'm sure they were making these kinds of cuts even back then.

While we are not privvy to each of the chapter's selection processes at AU, we cannot tell you. However, I have never heard during membership selection that we should, Drop the PNM because she is a legacy of ABC and XYZ, because she will probably go there anyway. However, if you have a PNM saying, "I'm a legacy of ABC and XYZ and I only want those two chapters", I would encourage the chapter to move on to someone who wants us. We make sure the info is first-hand, though, and not a rumor.


ITA: Also, someone mentioned "legacy poaching". While we don't promote it, if the PNM loves your chapter and you love her, it's always a thrill to get her over the legacy chapter.