Sophomore freaking out
 

I just signed up for rush and was feeling okay about my decision...now I'm freaking out as some people are trying to discourage my choice. I ended my freshman year at Mizzou with a 2.936 gpa and a laundry list of activities, but I just feel like being a sophomore with a not too hot gpa will hurt my chances. Is this a legitimate concern or am I overanalyzing?

No. Conversation is not what's ultimately important.

If a group is deciding between you and another sophomore, and you're both very personable, but she has better grades.... well, the decision probably wouldn't be in your favor.

Only you can say whether or not to drop or go through. Just know that if you do go through, and you get cut heavily, it's likely because of your grades. But you will never know unless you try.

Question - do you have a very hard major? Like engineering or some sort of science? They may impact how people view your GPA.

Most important - get your recs in order! At least one to every chapter, if not two. Stress how active you are on campus, and if the topic of grades comes up, be honest and tell them what you're going to do to pull up your GPA.

A non-recruitment clarification/

Since people can take GC advice literally, I strongly recommend against placing majors in categories like "hard" or "the opposite of hard, I guess." While some people believe majors like engineering or some sort of science are "hard" and will therefore be more receptive to a 2.9 GPA, there are others who will be insulted by what such categorization implies about other majors (which often extends to the people in those fields of study and careers).

Afterall, there are "hard major" students who are below average when they take classes in the "not as hard" departments. Why that happens is debatable. As far as I'm concerned it potentially highlights that what is "hard" or "not as hard" for some people can be the opposite for other people for a number of reasons.

/A non-recruitment clarification

Point taken, Dr Phil, and I'd never intentionally insult anyone over the "hardness" of their major. :)

"Hard" is an opinion, but average GPA is not, and there are majors that award lower average grades than others. Grades in the sciences are typically lower than in the non-sciences. The minimum Dean's list requirements at Mizzou make it clear that the GPA expectations are, as IL said, higher in some colleges than others.

Does it matter during recruitment? Maybe, maybe not.

Grades
 

The reason for the drop was economics and a math course, two of the most failed courses at mizzou, I got C+'s. I may drop and join a NPHC instead. My family wasn't very excited for my decision to join a non-Black organization.

QFP.

Orly?

NPHC groups care just as much about academics as NPC groups. Please pledge the library before you consider any Greek organization.


Two courses at a C+ that are 3 or 4 credits will not tank you to a 2.9 unless you weren't doing so hot before hand. A C+ is a 2.3 so I'm thinking you had one or more B- (2.7) grades and not that many B(3.0) B+ (3.3) A- (3.7) or A (4.0) grades your first semester. I have never been graded in a +/- system, but with a B+, a B, and two B- grades you wouldn't hit a 3.0, and a C+ is actually a little bit better considering it is a 2.3 and not a flat 2.0.

I also find it unfortunate that Mizzou has tutoring for math and economics courses at http://learningcenter.missouri.edu/ which you didn't mention using, just that they are the most failed at Mizzou. You didn't fail, you got a C+ and I bet that if you spent less time on your laundry list of activities you'd have better than a 2.9 overall GPA with 24-30 credits under your belt.

WOW, that's insulting... to NPC and NPHC alike.

This might be my new siggy!

I can't claim to be the originator, that's all Senusret I. He also coined "We've got letters, you've got dreams!"

Though I do think the library, and all services within, all highly under utilized by undergraduate students in higher education. It isn't just a bunch of nerdy looking women with their hair in buns reading and shushing people, not even close to that ridiculous stereotype.

I am full of LULZ at all the Teen Talk Barbie PNMs with their GPA issues "Math class is tough!" You know what's tough? Corundum on the Mohs scale, that's hard.

I got tutors at the beginning of the semester for each class, but that is of no matter now that the semester has been over for some time.

And it would be disrespectful to jump to NPHC, I'll focus on my studies instead.

Thank you everyone for the helpful advice, it made me think of things I have not considered very much.

Okay, I know that it may make it tough for a woman going through recruitment, but why do we keep pretending around here that a B average is a terrible GPA? As I posted above, a 3.0 would be Dean's List in a lot of places.

I realize, too, that chapters want a high chapter GPA, and probably have to meet a minimum standard, but unless you are comparing the chapter GPA to the all-women's average, it really doesn't mean a thing on its own.

Indeed. Not because she absolutely couldn't qualify with a 2.93 but because NPHC should never be a second choice.

:) Good luck to you. And keep in mind that these are the opinions of people on Greekchat. Only the sorority guidelines and the opinions of the sorority members who are making the decisions matter.

THANK YOU!

A 2.93 is not only eligible for Dean's List at many schools, it is higher than the average college student's cumulative gpa. I would wager that the average GCer's gpa wasn't too much higher than a 2.93 when they were first and second years in college.

Not to mention that GPA can be heavily correlated with privilege. Maybe the OP went to a crappy high school and didn't have any good math teachers. Maybe she had to work part-time. When sorting resumes, I'd take a 3.0 with a good story over a boring 4.0 any day.

To the OP, you won't get anything without trying. Your GPA will be a hinderance, but it may not preclude you from joining a sorority. Go in with an open mind. If you have a problem with rejection and will be crushed if every sorority cuts you, then don't do it. If you can be a grown-up and take the criticism with the hope that someone can see your potential, than give it a chance. You never know...there may be a chapter at Mizzou for you.

I have one last question, I've seen several post saying I wouldn't qualify for a NPHC organization but the GPA requirements for several are in the 2.5+ range, I was just wondering if someone could explain what reasons for a 2.9 not being acceptable are I would appreciate it I'm currently confused, is it my undergrad status as a sophomore?

Just wondering,

Thanks!

On paper, they are looking for a 2.5...that is to say, they won't even begin to look at you if you don't have that GPA in most cases. But they are generally looking for something higher, something that shows you are very dedicated to your academics and will be able to handle splitting your time between class and a GLO. This is the case for NPC orgs at least, and I think the reasoning is similar for NPHC, but I defer to the NPHCers for clarification on this one.

As others have said, you will never know what happens until you try. A 2.9 coming from an engineer at my school wouldn't bat an eyelash (like others have said, it's not about engineering being a "hard" major, A's are just not typically given in that college) but if your school is known for grade inflation or you're against other women with 4.0's, you could be worse off. Good luck!

I'm not saying that a 2.9 is the worst thing in the world, but for this individual poster they mentioned their laundry list of activities which reads to me as being more focused on the social than the academic. Also the +/- system makes things more complicated, but the fact I could find the academic assistance center for the two courses that allegedly are the root problem of the GPA issue, and the most failed, and I don't attend Mizzou makes me wonder if the OP is utilizing all her resources. I looked at their specific Greek grade report, most recent is fall 2010, and all of the NPC sororities were above a 3.0, with the average of sorority women at 3.25, and Mizzou women a 3.14.

I am well aware of privilege but blaming it on having a crappy math teacher in high school doesn't explain why this student wouldn't be placed in an appropriate math course to her abilities as Mizzou has every student take a placement exam as of fall 2010. Oh and working part time, not a great excuse. That goes back to the laundry list of activities I mentioned, lack of time management and focusing on academics. How will someone handle sorority life if they are using a job as an excuse (not that the OP did, you mentioned it as a viable reason).

/offtopic
Damn, where are these schools where 2.9 or above is Deans List? Shit, I would have been on it all the time! 3.5 is the lowest I've ever heard of, and I made it once, my very last quarter of school! Jealous!
/backontopic

I posted the requirements for Mizzou earlier in the thread. 3.0 is Deans List for 3 or 4 of their colleges.

The difference between term gpa, major gpa, and overall gpa.

Some schools require minimum 3.0 term gpa and some require minimum 3.5 term gpa.

Idaho has a flat across the board Dean's List requirement of a 3.5 semester GPA of 12 graded credits for all undergraduate and graduate students, except Law, where it is a 3.0 for 10 graded credits. Honors at graduation depends on the individual college and is an average of GPAs over the past five years. Top 3% is summa cum laude, under 3% but above 6% is magna cum laude, and above 6% but in the top 10% is cum laude. The range is pretty narrow here, even Engineering is high at 3.96, 3.91, and 3.81 and Science is 4.0, 3.95, 3.89. This is only for undergraduates, and Law has their own honors. Funny enough Business has the lowest honors graduation GPA requirement, which most people would assume would belong to Engineering, Science, Natural Resources, or Agriculture & Life Sciences.

When I said I had a "laundry list" I just meant that I was rather involved freshman year. Balancing school and clubs wasn't too difficult...so I incorrectly assumed I could do the same second semester.but didn't account for a new job and new campus position, I definitely focused on my academics but I gave harder classes the same amount of time as I did my classes during my first semester which was a huge mistake. I would never use my job or my clubs as an excuse, its my own fault for stretching myself too thin when I thought second semester would be the same as the first.

And as far as high school is concerned, none of my teachers were crappy lol. I was in honors programs in all areas except science and did fairly well. It was really just a lesson in time management differences from one semester to the other. I got it together at the end of the semester which is better than correcting it during my upperclassmen years, in my opinion.

Thanks again for all the input, I will probably go ahead and rush for the experience if nothing else.

* To the OP: I'm not a member of a Panhellenic sorority nor did I attend your university, so please disregard anything I'm about to write as advice...it is more a question to other posters on this site.

Please pardon my lane swerve, I'm just trying to understand something here. While I'm well aware of the fact that academics is a focal point for most (if not all) Panhellenic GLOs, and that there may be things in membership selection (for example, adding/subtracting points based on a GPA) that may be unchangeable, I'm just wondering if you have really seen the majority of sisters in the chapters you advise actively focus on grades over personality.

I'm just wondering out loud if the advice often given here (grades, leadership and activities are the most important, 4.0s are viewed exponentially higher than 3.0s, etc) may more closely reflect a stance held by the national organization(s), and that may not always be viewed with the same degree of respect/importance by active collegians who are really focused on a fun pledge class that will attract good mixers, good rushers for next year, etc. When I was in college (which was only 2-3 years ago), the sorority members would always gush over personality and, frankly, looks. "We want Jane Smith sooo bad, she is so funny and the cutest thing," etc. At most, it seemed to be the type of thing like, “Well, she has to meet [x] GPA and have a rec sent in, but after that it’s about who we like the most.”

Of course, I have no idea of the Mizzou campus culture. Especially since she is a sophomore, there very well be huge hoops she has to overcome even without the GPA issue. And please note that this conjecture/tangent is more about girls who are "just OK" in terms of stats but excellent in terms of personality, not about girls that are actual grade risks (ie, below minimum GPAs) or about comparing two equally “awesome personality” girls who have widely different GPAs. I just can't see a group of 20 year old girls voluntarily releasing a gorgeous and fun PNM with a 3.0 over a quieter, reserved PNM with a 4.0, which is why I'm puzzled when the advice seems to be "you're going to have an uphill battle" if they have anything less than a perfect GPA. At my school (which was admittedly in California but still fairly competitive), I knew a girl with a full ride merit based scholarship that was dropped from all but one chapter, and plenty of girls with "meh" GPAs that waltzed right through rush without getting cut once.

Flame away and correct me if I'm totally off base (and I very likely am), like I said this is just what I've gleaned from what I've been told about sorority rush, not off of any experience obviously.

^^^ Yes, you are a bit off base.

To not tread into Membership Selection, I'm going to use an analogy. When I was an undergrad, to get into the Occupational Therapy program, we had to fill out an application, have at least a 2.5 GPA (with at least Bs in specific courses like Biology, Chemistry, Psychology and Child Development), have a certain number of volunteer hours, write an essay and have an interview. There were about 250 people competing for 50 spots each year. Each of those items were scored and weighted in some manner and the top 50 scored/weighted scores were offered a slot. A few would be on a waiting list in case everybody offered a slot didn't accept it. In reality, the competition was so tight that after scoring, nobody with less than a 3.5 GPA got in even though the minimum GPA to be admitted was technically a 2.5.

Make more sense that way?

It has been my experience that GPA is more important when ranking women for the final bid list than it is in issuing yes/no invites (assuming the woman meets the minimum).

Every group has a different method for factoring in GPA. DTD alum, collegiate members may not have much choice in whether they can admit the cute girl with the low GPA into their chapter. There are often rules that dictate this policy that can't be over-ruled (or only if appealed to much higher levels in the organization.)

It's Mizzou. They have a shitload of gorgeous and fun PNMs WITH 4.0s, so they really don't need to screw with the g & f PNM with the 3.0.

Personality is more likely to win out over grades at smaller chapters with smaller rushes and a smaller amount of women to choose from. It doesn't matter quite as much in that sort of setting if you have a great GPA - you need girls who will be social and get your name out there. It's easier to bid the social girls and THEN get their grades up.

^ Ditto the wise women above me. And even coming from a smaller campus environment, I HAVE seen (10+ ago and recent formal recruitment) the "cutest, funniest girl who everyone loves!!!" get released from chapters (not specifically mine) because of her 2.3 GPA.

OK, that all makes sense to some degree. I understand sorority voting is infinitely more regimented and structured than fraternity voting.

But, like I said, I wasn't talking about PNMs who are drastically below the minimum with a 2.3 GPA, obviously those are tossed. I was questioning more about a girl that has amazing grades but a bland personality vs. a girl with a 3.4 (when the minimum is, say, 2.5) who has an amazing personality and has people already fighting over whose little she'll be. I just can't imagine that collegiate sisters wouldn't fight tooth and nail for the second girl over the first, but if it's built in in some way that for the most competitive chapters the girl with the higher GPA but bland personality is more likely to be invited back than all the advice in threads like these makes sense.

Now if it's a rush where there are so many girls with both 4.0s and good personalities that they can fill up all the competitive chapters and all of the "mid tiers" while they are at it then I understand completely, because then it makes my hypothetical moot. I guess call me skeptical though, because except at the most prestigious universities in the nation I would guess that saying there are enough girls with perfect grades to fill up two thirds of the chapters would be hyperbole to make a point that rush is competitive, not the actual reality. And in that situation, I would also guess that simply to get into the college where everybody has such a perfect resume that you'd have to have a perfect resume too.

I guess I'm just trying to understand the sorority process more without delving into membership selection simply because ours was so simple...we didn't look at GPA or leadership at all, just voted on their personality and I believe you needed something like 85% of the chapter to say "Yes" to get a bid. So in our scenario, the PNM with the great personality but medium grades (or really even terrible grades) would get a bid while the bland personality with a stunning GPA wouldn't make it very far. If the guy seemed like a slacker or whatever that would be brought up, and if the guy seemed like a leader it would also be brought up, but we weren't sitting around analyzing their GPA and leadership activities, and at the end of the day the personality was the deciding factor. Not saying one way is better than the other, just different.

I gotcha, I gotcha....

You mean to tell me you have not yet learned that women are more complicated? ;)

I think you are right. I don't think the average chapter member even knows the grades of the PNM's.

ETA: If you have first-semester rush, too, all the PNM has is a high school GPA. That is almost totally meaningless, unless you have a class rank to go along with it.

DTDAlum, there are many factors that go into putting a pnm on a bid list or even the pnm making it to a pref. party. a low gpa(or low based on the chapter's requirement) is an easy factor on which to release a pnm in the early rounds, no matter how sparkling her personality.

but in your scenario, the bland girl with the 4.0 may not have made it to prefs., while the 3.4 with the great personality may have.

Exactly. Which is why The Importance of Conversation/Personality During Recruitment is one of my favorite GC threads. I point all PNMs from my area to that one, and strongly encourage them to practice their conversation skills all summer.

The resume gets you noticed early. The personality helps you stand out from the pack through the later rounds. Chapters want girls that are going to help their GPA standing, as well as be leaders in the chapter. But they also want FRIENDS that they will enjoy being around.

I'd also point out that a chapter that is struggling with GPA is going to care a lot more about getting high GPA girls to improve in that area. A group that is consistently well above the national or school requirement is going to care a lot less.

I do think that sororities consider these things more than fraternities, and may even have some formal "chapter inventory" exercise prior to formal rush to identify their recruitment goals.

ETA: Although you all are talking about rush and recruitment, you all have veered into more generally discussing GPA requirements.

When you all say "sororities" and "fraternities," I want to note that you all are talking about NPC sororities and NIC fraternities (that are not also members of another council).

As for NPHC, I do not see a difference between sororities and fraternities.