He, she or it? Family keeps baby's gender a secret
 

The first question people ask after hearing of a new arrival is usually, “Boy or girl?”

Friends and family of one Canadian couple are getting no answer to this simple inquiry. Kathy Witterick and her husband David Stocker have decided to keep baby Storm's gender a secret.

http://moms.today.com/_news/2011/05/...cret?GT1=43001

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...er-under-wraps

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:D Awesomeness. The social construction of gender will eventually happen to this child if the child resembles traits that are able to be categorized as a girl/woman or boy/man. But, I firmly believe that gender doesn't have to happen the moment the ultrasound reveals the sex of the child, which is how most people do it.**

They aren't the first family to do this. This is extremely rare but has happened throughout history.

**These categorical distinctions are like other categorical distinctions that have been given longstanding meanings that don't disappear just because people sometimes ignore them (i.e. culture, race and ethnicity, age, etc.). People feel threatened, angry, and confused when people aren't easily identifiable; and when people choose not to identify as (insert category). That doesn't mean that people will not place people in a category and treat them accordingly. It also doesn't mean that the person will not eventually choose to identify as (insert category). It means that it isn't as easy as people like for it to be.

We were somewhat discussing this in the Weird or Strange News Thread.

I'll say it again though here.

I don't think these parents are doing their kids any favors by doing this to them.
Unless these kids live in a bubble they are going to see gender played out on TV, over the internet, in Wal-Mart, etc.
Seems this experiment is flawed if the kids are thought to be girls, thereby probably treated as girls by society, no?

And the issues seem to be creeping in already.

Why can't these parents just focus on teaching their kids that they can prefer dance lessons over football and that doesn't detract from their masculinity or make them any less of a boy. To pretend as if gender doesn't exist when it does exist and is completely natural is just off.

I agree w/ you again, PiKA.

Agree with PiKa.

There are better ways to teach acceptance.

To me this is partly the parents using their child to make a statement, I have no problem if you use yourself, you have control over yourself and your actions.

Not when you force your views on others.

This is no more of a social experiment than parents who choose to discipline their children differently than they were disciplined as children.

With that said, no, the way they raised their child will not be flawed just because people think the children are girls and treat them as such. These parents aren't claiming that gender mysteriously disappears just because they don't reveal the child's gender. This child may be perfectly fine identifying as A GENDER but this family wants that to not be forced on the child before the child even establishes its own personality type. I absolutely hate gendered babyshowers and gendered babyrooms. There are other forms of socialization that children undergo and gender doesn't have to be one of them. That's fine if others like gender socialization but not everyone does. :)

ETA: Now, the "boy" in this story wants the parents to tell people that "he is a he." That could be the "boy" making his official statement about what "he" self-identifies as; or it could be the "boy" doing this out of societal pressure--and noticing that the boys are consistently treated better than girls are. Either way, the parents need to think about letting this "boy" make "his" decision to be identified as a "boy." That "boy" may still choose to have long hair and wear pink. I doubt that. "He" will probably stop wearing pink and cut "his" hair because "he" will want to be like society expects "him" to be.

Gender is not completely natural. Much of it is socially constructed because it is different from biological sex. That's the point. But, since you think it's natural, you can understand why simply teaching your sons that they can prefer dance and still be masculine (who's to say that sons have to want to be masculine?) is not enough.

All parents use their children to make statements. It's simply a matter of which statements they are making.

ETA: Regardless of the statement that the parents are making, I really hope these children aren't emotionally and mentally harmed by any of this. Children are mentally and emotionally negatively (and positively) impacted by gender everyday.

Gender wouldn't exist if it wasn't for socialization and stereotyping. It's the cliche` "chicken or the egg" thing.

I agree that that doesn't mean that the existence of gender is a "problem" just as other categorical distinctions aren't inherently "problems." But, there are plenty of people who find it problematic for various reasons.

I honestly think he's a little young to realize that women aren't getting equal pay for equal work.

He may be distressed that he's being identified as a girl because he doesn't like people thinking he's something he is not. That doesn't mean he has already formed an opinion that "boys are better." I'm guessing he would be equally distressed if people thought he was 3 years old instead of 5.

It's a very interesting thing to try and play out but I agree with the people who said that asking a 5 year old and a 2 year old to keep that kind of secret really isn't fair to them.

I said "boys are consistently treated better than girls."

Boys and girls are too young to work so I'm not talking about equal pay for equal work.

That's why I said "that could be the 'boy' making his official statement about what 'he' self-identifies as...the parents need to think about letting this 'boy' make 'his' decision to be identified as a 'boy.'"

We don't know what's going on. The children and the parents may not even know what's going on.

Well in the case of boy children vs girl children, I think that varies GREATLY depending upon the parents and many other issues.

What does this mean?

Like I said in another thread, just because other parents do it, still doesn't make it right. Would say the same thing.

Yes Children are mentally and emotionally impacted by gender...that's life. That's why you pray that God allowed you to be born to a family with a strong parental background that will mold you to continue to be you, regardless of what gender, race, creed etc you are born in.

So, you know that all parents use their children to make statements and you think it's always wrong for parents to do that. Cool.

No, that's not "life" and don't use prayer and God to encourage people to be silent participants.

Only people who were raised in basements with no human contact other than their parents live their lives solely based on what their parents molded them to become. That also applies to the kids in this article. The parents know that they will be exposed to all of the complexities that life has to offer. The goal is to work towards challenging people's assumptions about "life." I have people in my life who have dedicated their personal and professional lives to challenging gender norms. It's a daily journey for them and they have been met with daily opposition--yet, they choose to keep going. I hope the kids in this article are able to choose whether to stop or keep going versus being forced to keep going.

I am refuting your claim that boys are consistently treated better than girls. If, for example, there's a family who wanted a girl desperately and got a boy instead, that boy might get treated like poo.

But you are right in your other post, I think this whole family is in danger of underthinking to the point that it becomes overthinking. (See: drinking yourself sober.)

I'm not talking about family dynamics.

I can and I will use God to hope that children are born to strong parents, because many children are not. If it were so, wouldn't have to worry about misguided children.


Didn't say solely. Doesn't mean outside forces don't help in the molding, but if parents are not involved at all in positive molding and knowledge of self, that is a sad thing.

Nice that the parents have made this choice, I don't agree with their method because it takes the child's ability to choose which stand he or she wishes to take in regards to how he or she wishes to present themselves in this world. Now if the child was older and started showing signs of gender ambiguity and they chose to make support and see where it goes, more power. At the beginning when the only thing the baby knows right now is eat and sleep? Naw don't agree.

Uhhhhh...this isn't really an issue of "strong parenting." The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means putting boys in blue and girls in pink; and discouraging any hint of defying gender. The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means teaching heterosexuality and discouraging homosexuality.

Most of these "strong parents" also conveniently use God to support why this is how things are supposed to be. This evening, a "strong parent" who I love with all of my heart talked to me about transgenderism and used the Bible's "...and God created Adam and Eve" to seal the deal.

God + strong parenting = ?????????

Yeah and the family in this article consider themselves doing just that and probably consider themselves "strong parents." They may also consider themselves to be "Godly."

You see this the exact opposite of how I see it. The way the average parent does it removes choice from the child. Children do not choose to be given pink baby stuff upon delivery and go home to a "girly nursery." People who have been gender socialized choose this for children. We don't know what children would choose if it is completely up to them from start to finish.

And since children have no real ability to choose anything, I see nothing wrong (as long as it is done sanely) with these parents choosing to go this route for their children just as other parents choose to go the gendered route for their children.

Storm? Nice to name your kid after an American Gladiator character...... :rolleyes:

Or.. um.. marvel comic character. Way cooler. I'd name a kid Storm ;)
http://i.imgur.com/mtMrX.jpg
Huge pic, just linking.
Or Nightcrawler.

Or....

http://www.parents.com/baby-names/storm/

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Storm

:)

I tend to stick with Swahili names.

It's interesting because my colleague believes that Black folks who give their kids Swahili names are setting the kids up for discrimination and potential failure (he's an extremist but not completely wrong). The same applies to other "strange names." He shits golf size hail when he hears about parents encouraging children to challenge gender. Reading about a "gender challenged" child named Storm would make him fart a thong bikini unicorn.

I think you should bring a camera and a copy of the article and see happens.

Yeah it's possible that some things for the kid(s) might be more difficult later, but there's nothing stopping them from going by another name as an adult. And, it raises the question of whether the parents' goal is to make the child's life easy or to raise their kids the 'right' way, or to make their kids 'happy' and so on. I don't think many if any parents really wish a child's life to be hard, but that doesn't mean they're going to compromise their values to make the child's life easier either.

Of course it wasn't, you made the choice to include as part of the issue. I only made that comment as an aside to overall parenthood. Not a referendum on these particular parents.



See above.

I think I need to use God's name more often. It's like a four letter word sometimes in these forums.


It's one thing to dress your child a certain way, that is fine. The parents should be able to request that just because my child was born a boy does not mean you have to buy blue or pink.

And this is where we differ, because the child has no choice, saying you are not gonna even tell your child's grandparents just to make a point is rather silly. But hey we all can see two sides of an argument. Doesn't mean neither one of us are wrong.

Random: I considered going by Storm in college. Or Rogue. I really wanted a cool nickname.

Anywho, I agree with Pika. That's what I was thinking when I posted this in N&P. To be 5 years old (or 2 years old) and left with the decision of choosing/rejecting a gender just sounds overwhelming. Leaving it to him to tell people what he is....if he is asking them to let the leaders of the nature center know he is a boy, that is great but I feel like he shouldn't have to ask. They left him to tell staff himself and you know what, he's 5. He shouldn't have to be his own advocate at that age. There is nothing wrong with Jazz being a boy who likes pink and wears his hair long, but for him to be a ________ who likes pink and has long hair is a problem. To just not be taught to ascribe to anything leaves a child open to so many identity issues, possibly moreso than those have "assigned genders" and reject them later. What they are trying to achieve is admirable in theory but the opposite of misguided is not being left unguided.

Meh. There is lots of debate about the effect of parental action on children versus peer involvement in final outcome of childrens' personalities. This little experiment is easier in theory than practice, and subtle bias will effect the final outcome no matter how much the parents wish otherwise. In the end, boys can wear all the pink they want and play with dolls...it doesn't make them gay or more interesting people or more happy...unless of course they really want to wear pink and play with dolls and their parents beat them rather than let them do so.

He would probably be interested in this article here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle1878414/

PS I personally think some names have certain connotations - Brandy and Destiny are total stripper names. Amber & Crystal are borderline stripper'y sounding. IMHO. I get it that Amber is a fairly "mainstream" name now, but I can't get past the image of "le stripper".

I also get annoyed when people try to give their kids "exotic" foreign names and they cannot get the spelling right. On the Bachelorette, some dude's daughter is named "Cozy", which is short for "Cozette". Nice try, Captain Genius, but "Cosette" from Victor Hugo's "Les Miserables" is spelled with an "S" in it. FAIL.

I also know of a dude from my previous employer whose name was spelled "Juan" and he pronounces it "Jew-wan". This is because his parents were stupid and did not do their research properly. He would also correct people in a rather huffy manner, those who would address him as "Wan" or "Hwan" (which is my phonetic typing approximation for Spanish pronunciation). Sigh.....

And now back to our original thread about parents trying to raise a genderless child or whatever.....

I'm with it. I would do it myself, but not in the same way. I wouldn't mind telling people what the biological sex of my child is, but I also would allow my children to decide what type of clothing and toys they like, and what activities they want to participate in, without regard to social norms.

Are you serious? :rolleyes:

There can be big money in keeping it ambiguous - if you're a model

Check out Andrej Pejic -

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/f...517-1eqas.html

:)

Referendum or not, I was only replying to your post. In the context in which we were typing, you ended with "that's life...just pray God gives kids strong parents who will try to teach them how to handle this gender stuff." That implies that people shouldn't wrestle with this too much because God and strong parenting will figure it all out. While I firmly believe in God and strong parenting as a foundation, I do not believe in concluding such discussions with God and strong parenting as though it solves and silences the issue. That happens all the time when people discuss such topics, hence my response.

That's how some families have done it. You know that it can be a constant struggle whether you tell people the biological sex or not.

In fact, gender can be a struggle even when people are socialized with traditional gender norms. Kids can notice early in their lives that they don't fit them; or they can discover later in life that they never felt "like a boy/man." And that doesn't just apply to children who are considered "dual gendered" or transgendered. "Normal" children also experience gender constrast and gender battles.


:)

There are some really good documentaries about this. The fluidity of gender can also be seen with Toshiya (Hara Toshimara), the bassist for the band Dir en grey.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...HT53RL3BcLMb2Q

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...wU-1HoExZqBGz3http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...3r_xH78FiEcjLA
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...vyQfBkIvxXJtt_

(The other photos won't load. Google image him to see his looks. :))

One of the biggest problems I have with the family is that they are letting their 5-year-old decide whether or not he wants to have any sort of education at this point. 5-year-olds aren't equipped to make lots of sorts of decisions, and going to school or even having some sort of homeschooling lessons is not high on many's agendas. What happens next year or the year after? If he still doesn't want to have any schooling, will the parents really make him? Seems like a lack of parental responsibility to me.

Same goes with what the kids eat. Sure, they need protein and vitamins and nutritious stuff to make them healthy and strong, but he wants to eat Fruit Roll-Ups all day, fine with me!

Between letting their kids pick out what they want to wear (which, by the way, I'm fine with), deciding what they want to do day in and day out, and what they want to eat, it doesn't sound like these parents are doing much of anything.

WTH?? ...bad idea.

((Storm and siblings)) Let's hope yall don't need to spend too much time on the counselors's couch, that appears to be clearly likely in yall's future.

parents. need. a. clue. correction. ...several. clues.

For me, the bottom line is that I want my (future) children to have the courage to be who they are. That means that my home needs to be a haven of support. I grew up as a "tomboy," which now I'm realizing is really just a nice way of saying your girl kid acts too much like a boy.

I became a woman who has turned the Christian Haustafel on its ear in my own marriage. I find that my lifestyle is looked upon unfavorable by a lot of women who have more traditional marriages. I'm "lazy," even though the reality is that I'm utilizing my strengths to the benefit of my family.

I agree with you to an extent. However, I imagine that, with this freedom comes responsibility. At least I hope so. It would for me. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this course of action were to lead to an earlier adulthood and more confidence in the children.

Well, yes, but responsibility in a toddler/kindergartener is more like if they have the wherewithal to pick up their toys and let their parents know when they have to go to the bathroom so they don't continue to be in diapers or pull-ups until they're 7 years old. I think that the responsibility to choose what is best for the child as far as development growth is concerned (food, education, etc) should at least be seriously encouraged by the parents, but I don't see that happening here at all.

In my limited experience, a child is going to express him/herself no matter what - yes, when they are infants you as a parent can dress them how you will, but once they turn 2/3 they will express strong opinions about dress, toys, food, etc. I think good parenting is about being attuned to the child, and encouraging him/her to look beyond stereotypes. You can do that without playing coy with a child's gender. Children need a base from which to start - be it language, their names, clothing, nutrition, religion, etc. It's asking too much, IMHO, to make a 5 year old decide. As they mature they will, as numerous examples show, come to their own conclusions about gender which may or may not coincide with their parents' or society's opinions.

Yeah and I used to brag about being a tomboy until I became a young adult and said "wait...wtf am I calling myself a tomboy for and bragging about it?!" I was buying into the gender hype.

I can relate. :) I'd love to read more about this if you wrote a book about your "story."

My only issue with this is that by not making it about gender and then going to the news then aren't they inadvertently making it all about gender?

Yes. I think they are smart enough know that trying to hide gender is just as deliberate and still makes it about gender. Afterall, the family still talks about gender.

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but what about the other 2 children? What makes this one different from the other 2?

If the parents are trying to make a statement, why wasn't this done from the get-go?

But that's the whole point.

My response when I invoked God was in response to this portion.

Which is why I say I think you took my words a little further than they were suppose to.

But that's the beauty of the internet, unless we are face to face, normal conversations that would have been picked up on do not always translate over the interwebs, unless you carefully type out every aspect of what you are referring to. As for your belief in not concluding with God, I would agree if we were having a debate on what defines a strong parent. That was just conversation.

It's making me assume that Storm is a girl. That's what is different...lol. They are boys. Wouldn't that be a hoot if that were true? Makes it seem like they are ashamed of a girl.

There are ways to give children choices WITHIN parameters that a parent sets. I did not let my daughter wear whatever she wanted when she was 2/3 because she didn't always understand that the weather or the occasion dictates what is appropriate to wear. I did have her help me shop for her own clothes and I did offer her the choice of two outfits that met the right weather/formality. She wasn't wearing sweat pants to a wedding and she wasn't wearing shorts and a tank top in the middle of winter.

If kids were capable of making all of their own decisions, they would be adults.