Is making a pledge sing hazing?
 

I'm usually a lurker, and this will be my second post since Fall of 09, so please no heavy mocking. My fraternity as most is part of NIC, and has a strict 'no hazing' policy. Many of my brothers have taken that as a no physical contact rule, and have started other forms of 'testing' or penalties for wrong answers. One of these is singing in public or in private if a pledge does an act that is against the rules or gets an answer wrong.

The songs are usually child hood nursery rhymes, pop-music, etc. As far as I can tell it serves no real benefit, other than humoring the brothers. On the other hand, no pledge in the last year or so has had any qualms with it. I'm just curious if it can be considered hazing?

IS it degrading to the pledges? Would you feel comfortable having them do this in front of their family and friends?

If it serves no purpose, why are they doing it?

Yes. It is a form of hazing.

If it bothers you, then why are you doing things against the rules and getting answers wrong? :p

If the pledges feels demoralized, humiliated, embarassed, etc., then YES, it would be considered hazing.

Doing it in public is about stupid. That's a really good way for someone else to call your Nationals/HQ, and say "we witnessed one of your pledges being made to sing in the Student Union on 4/15/11. Here is the video we took, or you could come here yourself and see firsthand."

Are you part of a national organization with a hazing policy? Consult that.

If not, consult your student code of conduct and state and local laws.

These folks are telling you what is hazing for them. Hazing is not something with a concrete definition.

!!! for emphasis.

Its hazing....but everthing is...

Also, see campus rules and state law, if applicable.

Am I the only one who read the thread title and thought "I can haz cheezburger?" Been reading too many grammar books lately, I guess.

Research is focusing on training grammatical forms so I'm seeing grammatical errors everywhere.

Just to emphasize again.

Yeah, it all depends on which definition of hazing you use.

However, more importantly, why are you doing anything if it doesn't serve a clear purpose and have solid results?

There are places where road trips and scavenger hunts are considered hazing (thankfully, not my campus). There are times where singing can be hazing, but there are also times where making them work out until they're sore all over isn't.

Other posters have covered why singing, in your situation, is hazing. I'd consider it hazing too.

As for how you can make pledges work out until they're sore while not having it be considered hazing: they show up and work out with some of the more athletic brothers. :)

The word "making" always raises a red flag to me because of the connotation.

The word "making" reminds me of pooping.

FIPG Policy on Hazing
No chapter, colony, student (pledge or member) or alumnus shall conduct nor condone hazing activities. Hazing activities are defined as:

Ant actions taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce or causes mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks’ quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house’ kidnappings, whether by pledge or active members’ wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste’ engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities’ and any other such activities that are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual or policy, or the regulations and policies of the educational institution, or applicable state law.


I think almost everyone follows FIPG, so it'd definitely be considered hazing by those standards

Is a scavenger hunt that everyone participates in, and which is merely collecting an assortment of items, where everyone has the same list, hazing or just an activity?

People, stop asking GC and consult your organization's guidelines and/or institution's guidelines (for some schools, the institutional guidelines trump organizational guidelines for some things).

If it's a scavenger hunt that requires you to:
"Take a photo of you and your fellow pledges giving the finger to a bunch of Hells Angels", it's probably an unwise activity to participate in.

I'm just saying.....

<shrug>

LMAO this made my study break! but the night is young still...

I left out the rest to remind people that this in and of itself isn't what makes something hazing.

No, no, no, no, no.

Some organizations, some campus policies and some state laws define hazing that way, but not all do.

Dr. Phil has it exactly right: If you are concerned that something may be hazaing contact appropriate people in your GLO and on your campus. That's the only way you're going to get a reliable answer.

^Exactly.

Take the State of Oklahoma's definition:

Under that definition, it probably wouldn't be hazing. Some folks think their organization's policy, full of vagaries like "mental discomfort" are universal, and that's just not true.

Thread titles I see when I'm tired:

"Is making a pledge sin hazing?"

"Is making a pledge sign hazing?"

Mental pictures:
Forcing a pledge to take the Lord's name in vain.
Forcing a pledge to lie.
Forcing a pledge to learn ASL.
Forcing a pledge to make a sign about how he's a pledge.
Forcing a pledge to sign the Declaration of Independence.

I could see this activity causing extreme embarrassment under this statute. I don't think this is a good example.

At least someone haz cheezburger :D Thanks agzg. I won't even go into the thoughts I've had over the TLC-titled thread, because I don't want tld going after me...

The strange sex one?

Obviously tld has strange sex. ;)

I don't see it being prosecuted for that. In our state, only branding, severe beatings and severe forced alcohol abuse have ever been prosecuted.

It would seem to be a silly thing to prosecute alone, but I bet it would be tacked with other counts if they got busted for more serious issues. It would seem pointless to add a whole paragraph to the statute with no intention of ever enforcing it...such is politics I guess.

I'm pretty sure scavenger hunts are considered hazing at U of Tennessee

In today's day and age 'practically' EVERYTHING is considered hazing.

What do you expect? They are written by our insurance companies. Of course they're going to be overbroad.

That said, failing to adhere to these definitions can cost you your charter. A good rule of thumb is that if you can't tell your HQ what you're doing, don't do it.

Yup, they seem to have made the list that's posted:

http://fraternity.utk.edu/hazing.html

See the paragraph(s) at the top of the page.

Three of these are particularly surprising given that I've seen them done at other schools with no one batting an eyelash...

#6 "Pledges versus members in athletic contests or other competitions, except for balanced teams composed from both groups." Are pledge vs. active football games banned on many campuses?

#21 "Line-ups of pledge class". Just how broad is this? If pledges are assigned in order by height (ace to tail) and they are arranged in that order at some point, does that equal charter bye-bye?

#35 "Physical mutilation of the body via "branding" or tattooing - pledges or actives." So if a Junior who has been a brother for two years gets the fraternity letters tattoo'ed on his ankle, hazing charges are brought?

They probably mean that the brothers shouldn't do that to each other or to pledges.

I feel that hazing rules have gotten out of line. We have to sing for RA training, but that's not considered hazing, but I'm sure if we had to do it could be considered hazing.

Actually, it is hazing, but RAs aren't under the microscope the way Greeks are. Many campus groups participate in hazing (sports teams are a common non-Greek example), but most don't have to "answer" to headquarters or insurance companies the way Greek organizations do.

Still doesn't mean Greeks should whine "everyone else gets to do it, though..." Not saying this is what you're implying, but none the less, I'm fine with GLOs holding ourselves to a higher standard- I have no problem with it.

Played college sports hazing happens constantly...not complaining ...just saying.

You mean during a ritual? I don't think they mean if you're standing in line waiting to get your sequined hose after you light a unicorn head with your celery-scented soy candle that your charter is going to get pulled. I believe "line-ups" in this context means making the pledges line up and then throwing questions at them.

I guess this goes back to the original topic, but I don't think that asking pledges to sing is hazing. During my pledge period when we went serenading, our new member mom told me we didn't have to sing if we weren't comfortable doing so.

Now, our Greek Life office "strongly discourages" serenading, because it can be construed as hazing. It makes me really sad, because serenading was one of the best memories I have from my pledge period. Oh well, what can you do. Like Kevin said, better safe than sorry.