Pledge worried about small fraternity
 

Hey guys,

I recently went through rush during the Spring and got a bid from the fraternity that I wanted. However, after accepting my bid I realized that the fraternity has about 23 active members with 12 pledges for Spring. Also, I heard that only one person crossed during Winter. Rushing for other fraternities throughout the week I thought most chapters hovered around the 50-60 range and this gotten me a little worried about the growth of the chapter I'm in. I understand I'm only a pledge, but having 23 active members can't be a healthy number, can it?

I will say that the morale of the fraternity is very high though. Almost every active was at every rush event and the bid party they hosted for us was a blast. I really lack the experience in the running of a Greek organization so I was hoping the experienced members on this forum could share some insight.

Thank you.

Why couldn't it be healthy? If you have a close brotherhood, and high participation levels, what else can you ask for?

And don't worry about "running" your organization just yet. Enjoy your time as a pledge. It will never come again.

Unless your national is on your back about your numbers being higher, and if your house/living space is filled and there are no debts, who cares?

There are healthy fraternities with fewer than 23 members. It's all relative. The only time it becomes a problem is if YOU make it so.

Sounds like you're fine. There's a chapter on my campus that has 140 members, but can't get enough of them to participate in anything meaningful to compete with chapters which are at the 30-something level.

Numbers ain't everything.

Yeah, you're going to be broke, which will very seriously limit what you can do, as well as your ability to grow in competition with other chapters (assuming they're actually 50-60). That's not necessarily deadly, but it is a significant challenge to overcome.

Right now you're a pledge. You got a bid from the place you fit in and wanted to be. You're love for the org will grow over time. Just focus on that.

When you reach the backside as an active, there will be opportunities to step up as a leader, regardless if you have a position or not (which may be hard to avoid with 23 guys). When you get there, you can look around beyond your campus and find there are methods to rapidly increase size without harming quality. It comes with growing pains, but gets you in a fiscal position of being able to compete with major leaders on campus. As long as you stay on top of it, you should be able to do great things.

While this greek experience will be different than being in a 60man or 100man chapter, the potential benefits you can realize by being successful are just as high as the challenges you face. Just make the most of your experience, and enjoy it while it lasts.

Since when does low numbers mean a chapter is broke and can't do anything? One group on my campus surged to 50 or so members while the other 3 had 30 or less and none of the groups had any sort of financial difficulties and had similar social calendars. I've seen just as many large chapters with financial difficulties as smaller chapters.

Unless you have your national organization shouting for more numbers (and, unfortunately, all too often national groups make numbers the only measurement of success), some chapters don't need or want to have that many people. I know, I know, quality and quantity aren't mutually exclusive but there are some chapters that really enjoy being smaller and cater to that type of audience.

Dnall doesn't believe in healthy chapters under 50-60. Our campus had an even larger range among the 13 fraternities on campus (no NPHCs included) from 10 or so to 70+ and all did ok. The smaller ones didn't do as many social events with the sororities, but they participated in everything else and ~somehow~ managed just fine. Small groups would get paired together for Greek Week or switches.

You sure you're actually in a fraternity?

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE.

They're only going to be broke if they bite off more than they can chew.

For all your 20 years of working with fraternities, you would think you would have found out somewhere along the way that groups/systems come in all sizes and Greek life is not a homogenous thing.

Abitworried, please don't listen to ANYTHING this poster says.

There is a difference between financial difficulty and buying power.

Quick math lesson, X dollars times 20 guys is less than X dollars times 20+anything, especially X+50 which is where he said the other fraternities are.

At any location, dues rates are not just set randomly, they are normally within a range of what the market will bear. In other words, if you raise dues another $100/yr it would lose you more members than the increased income would replace.

As a social fraternity you need Y number (normally 14-20/yr) and Z quality (locally defined) of events to show your members their monies worth in social events. That costs X money. Your competitors for recruitment & social market share have presumably 200% more than you. That doesn't mean you fail, it means you have to be twice as good as them to stay competitive.

If they pay you 1000/yr dues, and 400 of it goes to social, you need to make that 400 seem like it was worth 1000 to the guy. If you don't do that, then you will have trouble retaining guys &/or collecting dues. That's not particularly hard to do, but it takes hard work and creativity. If you are a small chapter versus a couple other larger chapters, then you won't be able to out compete them financially in social events. You can only lean harder on the hard work/creativity and take fun classy guys.

Is he serious?

You seriously need to learn that your experience is NOT the only experience. Despite your insistence that your way is the only way that works, many smaller chapters happily function across the country. There is more than one successful model in the Greek world. The mega-chapter with the huge house isn't the only one.

And here I thought it was about brotherhood. My mistake.

Once again, the values of your fraternity that you tout so much are completely at odds with what you're posting.

Maybe if you attend a giant state school where massive socials and parties are the norm. A small group of 10-15 might not be able to have the social calendar of the 10 other groups of 100 guys.

But groups at my school all had comparable social events and mixers, regardless of their size. Your school and your greek experience are not reflective of greek life as a whole, every where else.

Just in case dnall didn't see this.

This. SO MUCH this.

My chapter is not particularly large, but I wouldn't trade the bond I have with them for the world. Certainly not for ever-fluctuating numbers.

My Chapter currently has 25 members with three associate members right now for this semester. I agree with the majority in this thread that numbers doesn't mean much. As long as you enjoy yourself bonding with your future brothers, it's all good.

Yep.

And an even bigger yep.

I'm not talking at all about my school or my undergrad experience.

While I certainly believe very deeply in what my fraternity is about, operationally it is still a business. As a business, it must provide adequate services to meet the expectations of members or they will either not stay members or pay or both.

For an NIC fraternity at any school that is 14-20 events a year, and those have a definable cost. It will be variable from place to place, depending on the rule structure between your school and nationals as locally enforced, and what things cost in that area based on what's available. I can show you locations where to do that many events according to the rules/costs they are required to deal with the min cost regardless if you have 20 or 70 members would be close to 100k/yr. And I can show you other places where you can accomplish the same thing for a tiny fraction of that cost.

I don't know what the economics of the greek system in Hawaii are. I'm not commenting on that. All I know is fewer members means less money, which drastically limits what you can do. That doesn't mean you can't survive or have a good greek experience, but that lack of resources will define that greek experience.

While a 100man chapter has huge financial resources, there are just as many cons to that end of the spectrum as well, they just tend to be less about money. Some happy medium supportable by the school is the most balanced situation. 20-anything is always going to be a struggle for resources. That chapter would be best served to get their numbers up closer to 40. There's a lot more synergy in that range to capitalize on.

@ the bolded:
http://i.imgur.com/HZnC8.jpg
WHY DO YOU SAY THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE.

It really can vary by campus and Inter/National Organization, but what it comes down to is your chapter being able to function financially, and at a level acceptable to the members on campus. The thing that I noticed about your post is that you mentioned the morale is high, which is crucial for any chapter to succeed regardless of size. I'm not sure what the dynamics of your chapter are, but when paying your bills ask what your money is going to and about the financial health of your chapter. This is often announced and discussed at chapter meetings but I'm not sure of your membership status or how your group works.

If you have 35 or so members and can function (academics, bills, social functions, etc.) that's great. With a smaller group you have better opportunities to get to know your brothers, be involved in your chapter leadership wise, and maybe even at the Inter/National level. If the members are getting what they need from the fraternity experience it will allow you as brothers to find new and more members who fit in and not just to take people to pay the bills or be a number.

Don't worry about lacking experience now, because I think you're a new member who hasn't been initiated and this is the time to learn about your group, get to know the initiated members and form bonds with your pledge brothers. Be as involved as reasonably possible while keeping up with your studies, ask questions, and enjoy your new member period.

Also something to think about is your pledge class relative to your total chapter size. It sounds like they are in heavy duty growth mode. If the guys are enthusiastic enough to show up to everything, that is a very good sign for continued growth, if that's your goal. By maintaining enthusiasm and brotherhood, the numbers will follow. I wouldn't sweat it, and if recruitment is your thing, get involved with that when the time comes.

That's something the OP can actually have an effect on. My advice to him would be that if he does everything he can to keep as many of his fellow pledges as are worthy , his chapter will be at the 50-60 mark in fairly short order.

I have also seen threads here about chapters that had too much growth in a short time, and that caused them trouble, or at least meant they had a lot of change to manage at once.

So all of our "businesses" must be F500 in order to be successful? There's no market for mom-and-pop shops?

I'm not sure which ass cheek you pulled your formula from, but how do you know that the events provided by a 20-30 member chapter AREN'T meeting the expectations of members? They are, after all, the ones PLANNING said events.

The bold is where you keep fucking up. If you want to say "For ATO at large colleges..." fine. You obviously don't have enough knowledge of every NIC organization (one of which is my organization), so you cannot speak on the "norms" at EVERY school.

Here's a formula.

100 members x $500 dues = $50,000

30 members x $2000 dues = $60,000

So -- fewer members does NOT always mean less money.

So Regional State University is always going to struggle, regardless of the fact that the campus can't support hundred-man chapters? Ok.

I'm also curious about the aforementioned "14-20 events" every chapter has to have every year.

There seem to be a couple of bits of info about your chapter that are lacking here. Some fraternities emphasize brotherhood more than others. Some emphasize size of chapter. Some are highly selective and traditionally have smaller chapters. Some are pretty much on their own and some have really heavy alumni support (financial contributions, house corporations, dues and fees 'scholarships' for good candidates who might not otherwise be able to afford the costs, etc).
As we all have heard so many times, find where you fit and go for it. Since this chapter is one you liked and were happy to receive a bid from take a look at how this one interacts and what it does. Brotherhood in a smaller house is easier to attain than in an anthill.
If you fit well in your chapter then have a good pledge period and when you are initiated put real effort into seeking out top quality prospectives. My view is that it doesn't take huge numbers but great brothers to make a chapter work.

Exactly.

Dnall reminds me of Greek Life advisors/representatives who prefer certain GLOs and certain types of Greek Life. As a result, they are partial to certain GLOs and certain types of Greek Life. I remember the days of partial Greek Life offices. It was difficult for the GLOs that didn't have what the Greek Life offices considered the winning formula (regardless of the GLOs' local and national policies and procedures). That winning formula, as far as those Greek Life people were considered, is being an NPC or NIC GLO; either having a house or a chapter room; and having a large chapter in relation to the size of the student population.

I'm guessing he means "14-20 events that the chapter is stupid enough to invite everyone with an ovary to and completely pay for just so they can maybe get laid."

Thankfully, most chapters have more sense than to waste their money in such a manner.

You say that like they're over. Unfortunately they're not.

I had to tangle with a Greek Life advisor at a school where they allow above ground pledging for their cultural orgs. This individual was consistently incredulous about our policies, because we do things differently from other multicultural sororities, mostly surrounding risk management, image, etc.

In one case, this person went as far as to imply that we were lying when we said we don't surface our aspirants while they're on line, opting instead to have a neophyte presentation (which we call an Emergence).

Given my past experience with Greek Life advisor who believe only in the NPC/NIC models, it was bizarre.

Wow! I would feel like I was in the Twilight Zone if I ran across this advisor. When I was working on new chapter expansion, most were only familiar with NPC sororities and seemed afraid to ask about how we brought in new members. One actually told me, "Just don't do any physical hazing, okay?" :rolleyes: Then again, this was in the late 1990s/early 2000, lol.

How do you figure? I know of chapters that have no house, dues of just a couple hundred dollars a semester, and they do just fine... because the campus culture doesn't require HUGE events that cost tons of money. You have no idea what this poster's situation is. Don't make blanket statements when you've been provided with virtually no details.

Fraternity dues and how they get a chapter what they want/need is not an exact calculation in the way you describe.

Also, at my school, the largest chapter on campus was the one that lost their house, participated in events with other chapters the least, and didn't show up to Greek week at all in my last year of school. The reasons for that, I'm not really sure. But the smaller chapters never had a problem. Hell, my chapter was the smallest of the sororities, we paid about $150 in dues a semester, and the only time that we really "struggled" financially was when trying to collect money to send sisters to convention. But we got it done.

What the F^%& are you talking about? Where are these numbers coming from? Just because you say it's true, doesn't make it so.

How do you know this?! Because of your super-scientific calculations?

Stop posting. Seriously. How many people have to say it before it sinks in?

Fewer than 30 members DOES NOT equal a chapter that can't afford to survive. CUT IT OUT. You've tried saying this all over GC, and NO ONE agrees with you... because there are numerous examples that prove you wrong.


Brotherhood is what matters. The rest is gravy.

The OP explained his situation. He's coming from an NIC org, not NPHC or multicultural. His chapter is at 23 +12 pledges, but in moderate hazing so not going to finish 12. Their peer chapters (2 of them) are in the 50-60 range. And, he's concerned with the pitfalls of being in a very small chapter.

14 events is a couple less than one event of some kind every other week while school is in session. I didn't give an amount for what the cost would be because I don't know the rules, factors, or costs on the ground where he is. All I said is there's a definable cost for that, and it will be hard to reach with fewer members than more.

Whoever tried to give that math lesson a minute ago, thanks so much. I've never seen a 100man chapter charge 500/yr, and not many schools with small chapters will you find charging high dues. It tends to be the inverse of what you need. The smallest chapters on campus tend to charge less in order to hold members and attract recruits. I said tends! I know there's exceptions to the rules, but that TENDS to be the case.

Look, I don't know what happened with this chapter. I don't know if they were better in the past, went through a membership review recently, and now the remaining core is super committed. I sounds like they did a good job in rush if they had a guy not recognizing their relative size versus the others. It sounds like they have potential, but right now they're going to be short on funds. They really need to get numbers up so there's a little more latitude in the budget. Otherwise they'll always be cutting corners, which is more risky.

There's nothing wrong with big chapters or small chapters. You can have a good greek experience anywhere. Small chapters will always struggle. That's facts of life. You only have so much money and manpower to get anything done and that will always define you unless you can grow a lot. Really big chapters have a lot of money, but you're not going to be as tight with 100 people as you are with 40 and there will be a lot less leadership opportunities to go around. There's pros and cons on either extreme, and the middle has some pros and some cons from both extremes. Every place has to find its balance. If the other chapters on your campus are 50-60 guys and yours is 23, then you're not reaching your potential and you probably have some internal stuff to deal with.

LOL

You're so full of shit.

NOOOOOOOOO!

You. Are. Wrong.

Please stop.

ETA: if there are exceptions to the rules (which you've made up), then stop telling this kid "You will be broke," and, "You need to grow because chapters with less than 30 members can't compete with the larger chapters," when you don't know if that's actually true.

It continues to baffle me how you people can argue about anything.

The guy that makes minimum wage is going to have a harder time paying his bills than the guy that make 100k.

If you charge the same dues and have a lot less guys, then you have a lot less money.

Go pick out a campus, look up the dues rates. They'll be some range that normally isn't far apart. Almost always within 50% from highest to lowest, probably more like 30%. That's based off what the market will bear, and the balance that org has to strike to get and hold a number of members. Look at a dozen different campuses. I'll bet you in almost all cases the smallest quarter of chapters tend to charge average to below average dues.

Look at those same random dozen schools and figure out how many events their NIC orgs host on average a year. Again, I'll be you it's between 12 and 22ish (long as they're not on probation), and could be a lot more in some cases. Do some research on those situations and figure out the cost of doing business & what percentage of gross income is going to social. That percentage will be different for each campus, but will normally be pretty close between groups within a single IFC.

This isn't rocket science. Most of this stuff is about as automatic as breathing. If you want to spend your time arguing that some tenth of a percent exists out there somewhere as an exception to the rule, then I really don't care.

Is it possible we can just accept that no chapter is perfect? That there are in fact inherent pros and cons to certain chapter sizes and situations? Can we maybe focus on things that most likely true, so that just maybe someone can take something useful from it rather than waste their time saying they won't face any challenges.

I swear, you people are weird.

Uh.. You were the one who argued that there are exceptions to the rule. In turn, you've made it clear that your oh-so-certain-how-the-OPs-chapter-really-is statements may not be true.

The end.