Concerns for Boyfriend going through Recruitment
 

Hey everyone :) my boyfriend is trasferring to Alabama next year and some of his friends told him to go through recruitment, and now he really wants to. However, he truly wants brotherhood and is super concerned about joining a chapter that hazes hard core. His best friend at Mizzou almost left the school after getting tortured so much during his new member process, and I just was wondering how one either a) Brings up the topic of being hazed during recruitment or b) finds out. He asked the guys at Alabama if they haze and all they said is 'they can't talk about that" sooo idk what that means, but, any advice?

First off, thank you for joining Greekchat. We are an awesome online community. We welcome you and I love your username.

I recommend letting your boyfriend handle this on his own every step of the way. If you really want to offer him some advice tell him to be well aware of the Greek lettered organization's policies against hazing, as well as the university's policies. Tell him to take these policies very seriously.

:D

I get that you don't want him to get hazed, but I wasn't clear if you were saying he does or doesn't want it.

Anyway, it is not a topic of conversation in recruitment. Hazing is illegal and shouldn't happen, but it does. Most of it no big deal. Very little of it is out of control, but that does happen too.

I'm not saying it should be this way, but a guy that kept asking about hazing during rush would be seen as a bit of a wuss by my chapter. We went from hazing to not hazing when I was an active, but pledgeship was still no joke. It was a thousand percent all consuming commitment either way. The guy that's overly concerned with doing some pushups is the same guy that drops when he's busy as hell getting called every other night to DD.

I would say... I understand this is your bf & you're very concerned for him, but you have to let him do some things on his own. Just let him figure this out for himself.

If anything, tell him hazing doesn't necessarily lead to strong brotherhood. Stuff that's humiliating and stupid detracts from it. A constructive crucible-type experience, regardless if it's physical/mental or if it's a lot of very hard work with no spare time, all done side-by-side with pledge brothers does bring you closer together. You will never be able to tell that from the outside, even if you know in advance how hard an org hazes or if they don't at all.

So what you're saying is, you were still hazing?

I meant that he doesn't want to be hazed, either, I mean I just want him to be do what he wants without disrespecting himself, and that's his opinion of what that is. I don't feel he would be overly upset with minor hazing - like having a pledge nickname thats embarrassing or wearing dorky outfits to socials - but some of the stories he was told by his Mizzou friend were concerning. I don't want him to be dehumanized, which sounds overdramatic, but his friend got pee'd on for example for messing up the creed. I just didn't know if there was a way for him to figure out which chapters do consider hazing "earning it" and which don't so badly without him coming across, like you said, a wuss. I think he is open to local chapters (different than IFC??) and NPHC if it isn't like weird that he isn't racially affiliated with what they historically stand for.

*sigh* Perhaps he will have to just go with his gut because I suppose it's anti-masculine to sound off concerns, and I suppose they would lie anyway.

You didn't need us after all.

Hard work isn't hazing. The program I referred to was award winning & endorsed by both the university and nationals. It was very hard though, harder in many ways than hazing had been, but legal.

When my gf pledged her sorority she had: 1x 2hr chapter mtg, 1x1hr pledge meeting (about social & don't post stupid pics), and 4x random study hours per week. They did one 12hr sisterhood retreat that consisted of busing out to this place while everyone slept, 2hrs of ice breakers, 2hrs of sitting around, & bus back. Then she got initiated. She didn't know what it was about, or even all her pledge sister's names.

Most people would say that's a fairly unsuccessful member ed process. They could have initiated her on bid day, or not even bothered cause it didn't mean anything anyway.

I don't advocate hazing. It is the most effective training tool I know when done correctly and constructively (versus moronically - like pissing on people - gross). But, anything you leave 18-22yo kids in charge of with little supervision is going to eventually get out of control. And, it is illegal. The consequences of getting caught or something catastrophic happening are not worth the gain. There are other methods to run an equally hard and more constructive training program without breaking the law. They just require exponentially more work on the part of the chapter.

For the OP, I know it's frustrating, but a lot of this is unknowable going in the door.

Asking about is fine. Everyone has a standard answer regardless if they haze or not. It doesn't necessarily appear unmanly or would a fraternity even care about that. It's when you keep asking about it or make a big deal out of it that it becomes an issue.

When I give a bid, I'm looking for someone to charge the gates of hell with me no matter the costs (I know, overly dramatic). I'm looking for a guy that doesn't care if he's going to be hazed or not hazed, and ready to overcome whatever challenge emerges to be part of my fraternity.

If he's whining about hazing, I'd feel like he's saying "I'm that committed to your org, unless it gets hard & then I'm gone." Even if I know we don't haze, I'd still think he's the guy that's going to bail when pledgeship isn't all glitter & unicorns (joke w/ my gf, sorry, but you get the point). I'm going to worry that even if he makes it through pledgeship, he'd be the active that wouldn't be there for you or wouldn't live up to his responsibilities cause his heart's really not in it.

If we did haze, it'd be worse on him cause people would want to test him to alleviate those concerns.

NPHC or a local isn't an escape either. There's hazing there too. It's against the rules and the law everywhere and no one is truly immune to it.

Just like you would tell a girl going through sorority rush, he needs to just focus on the groups he sees and find the one that is the best fit for him & that feels the same way about him. Everything else will take care of itself.

You know, one of the signs of lying is being overly verbose.

In my opinion, someone who allows hazing to occur is also someone with a weak spine who fails to stand up to principles.

You mean, the lady doth protest too much?

Blame it on ADD or whatever, but I still to this day haven't been able to make it past about the 3rd sentence of any of his posts.

I don't think I'm missing much.

Whatever your bf goes through, he'll have to handle it if he wants it bad enough. Even if he chooses to endure something degrading, he's not likely to want you to know it. If you prod on the suspicion he's getting hazed, you may be adding to what he's going through.

As has been suggested by others, just be supportive from a distance. You can't carry his weight on this.

So you've been in that position before?

This hasn't been brought up yet, but how old is he? If he's transferring too late, they may not even give him a bid regardless. You may secretly get your wish of him not getting hazed by nobody offering him a bid based solely on his hours completed.

dnall, for the love of Mike, please stop typing misinformation about sororities. You have no idea whatsoever what a member education program consists of, and you're passing off hearsay. You don't know what is covered, you don't know anything about new member education. It's far more than "social & don't post stupid pics". And that's all I care to say about it.

Have you seen the manual for new members? Have you participated in the process? No, you haven't. Nor should you (see the manual or know anything else other than cursory superficial information, which btw it appears that you have and have written about it, above). But I have. And I can state this with impunity: your "gf" told you something, you heard something else, and the truth is in yet a third location.

Stick to your own damned lane. You are constantly muddying the waters with your sorority misstatements which you attempt to pass off as factual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2041945) But, anything you leave 18-22yo kids in charge of with little supervision is going to eventually get out of control.

:rolleyes:

Can things get out of control? Yes. Do they, no matter what? No.

Quote:

When I give a bid… I'm looking for a guy that doesn't care if he's going to be hazed or not hazed, and ready to overcome whatever challenge emerges to be part of my fraternity.

So, you want guys in your fraternity who are willing to get hazed…

Quote:

If he's whining about hazing, I'd feel like he's saying "I'm that committed to your org, unless it gets hard & then I'm gone." Even if I know we don't haze, I'd still think he's the guy that's going to bail when pledgeship isn't all glitter & unicorns (joke w/ my gf, sorry, but you get the point). I'm going to worry that even if he makes it through pledgeship, he'd be the active that wouldn't be there for you or wouldn't live up to his responsibilities cause his heart's really not in it.

… and if they’re not willing to get hazed, they won’t be committed to your organization? Well then I guess all that commitment that I had for my organization was just one big lie. Someone needs to piss on me.. quick!

Quote:

For the OP, I know it's frustrating, but a lot of this is unknowable going in the door.

A lot of it is unknowable. You said it. Therefore, a guy who’s afraid he might have to do things to a goat (that I won’t mention here) – and yes, these crazy things are concerns for some potential members – is someone who also won’t want to take on leadership positions, help the chapter to grow, and stand by his brothers when things get tough? O..k…

Thank you, Maria. I was about to jump on this myself. He knows nothing of sorority NM processes. Just because we don't consume 100% of our NMs time does not mean that we don't have successful and meaningful NM processes. It also is probably why we have women with outstanding academic records!

Women on GC - particularly of a certain generation - have complained about the length and depth of the NM program since the inception of GC.

I'm in that certain generation, Sen. My pledging period was close to six months. I knew what I needed to know, backwards and forwards.

Having seen and read the New Member Education manual for my fraternity, I will attest to the comprehensive nature of the materials. Having sat in on NME meetings, as have other advisors, I know that talking about "social and photos" (paraphrase) is NOT the only topic. Far from it.

As for the NPC decision to shorten the NME period, that's way out of my scope of influence, and there are reasons that the NME period was shortened. That's been discussed ad infinitum. I gave up complaining, instead I'm focused on broadening the education process to the entire chapter. We do a little segment each week in chapter; we have sisterhood firesides where we talk about our history and ritual. It has made a difference, based on what I'm hearing and seeing in the chapter.

I can speak about what I know as it pertains to my fraternity.

True dat, but I think dnall is exaggerating. Plus he's at least 38, according to some of his other posts, so unless he's really gross, his girlfriend pledged back in the day as well - so this has zero to do with the new mandated quickie NM programs. I'm guessing it was more due to the fact that her pledge class was honking big and getting through a competitive rush was hazing/pledging/education enough.

Although I am quite curious what kind of pledge program back in the early 90s was giving direction about "posting stupid pics."

boom, roasted

First the girl in question is still an active. (Far as the personal life goes... we didn't know each others ages till it was on, and then decided to take a chance. I've heard this shit from my friends and hers. It hurts and I'm tired of it. We recently broke up after a year and a half together over this issue, which still hurts. So, now that your curiosity is satisfied, I really do not want to talk about it. I appreciate your consideration.)

This is a thread about fraternity pledgeship, so is my damn lane.

Yes I'm going off what she told me, which may not be the entire story, but is pretty close. I'm repeating her story only. I'm not saying anything about any other sorority on her campus and certainly not everywhere else. I know for a fact other sororities on her campus made their girls know a lot of information. That's not the point.

I was trying to explain through a real world example that a joke of a NM program makes for a bad org, less than stellar members, weak brotherhood, and a poor greek experience. VERSUS a legit program.

This is one of those areas where things need to be very different for girls and guys. What it takes to teach and gain absolute devotion from a guy in a short period of time is very different from a girl. If I were an expert at methods to achieve that with girls, then my life would be a bit more entertaining than it is now. But, I am pretty damn good at getting those results from guys through military, fraternity, and business experiences.

When I pledged, which was well back in the day, I knew for sure I was getting hazed. I hung out with my soon to be pledge brothers the night before we took our bids & we made a pact that if we had to do certain things to a pizza & eat it or goats or any crap like that, that we'd all walk together, but otherwise we'd stay strong together to get through anything that comes.

Most of what we experienced was productive, some was not. Some was funny, some was moronic. A lot of it was fun to laugh about later. When pledge brothers wanted to quit, we had a conversation with them about hanging in so they could vote to help us change it. It took another year and getting busted for hazing, but we did change it to a great program that I was really proud to be part of creating. Most people would have said it was harder to do the new program than hazing, but it was legal & very productive.

Anyway, advice for the bf of the OP is don't stress about it. Focus on finding the right place to be & everything else will take care of itself.

And in the process insulted all sorority women for giving their NMs a poor greek experience.
Because girls and guys just have totally different brains, amirite?

What.

Did you just compare new member/pledgeship to getting someone to have sex with you? Really?

Absolute devotion. Right.

Funny how your ~*~abilities~*~ don't seem to win friends and influence people on the internet.

No, if anything I insulted that one unnamed chapter of one unnamed sorority. At no point did anything I said at any time read as to apply to anything other than that one chapter. And, that was given as a contrasting example to demonstrate the need for a hard pledge program.

Yall are right that I wasn't there to experience that program first hand, but neither were you. You don't know that their program wasn't/isn't as bad as I've described. I think if you had the opportunity to talk to her or many other girls in her chapter you would find that it is that weak, and that there's a lot more wrong with their chapter than that.

It's more that he likes to consider himself the ultimate expert on the inner workings of sororities. He's just Earp with proper punctuation and fewer emoticons.

Must be the fact that I've got ovaries that I'm not absolutely devoted to you right now. Darn those little suckers.

You aren't a member of that chapter and have no idea of its true inner workings. You don't know. Which is why you have absolutely no business writing about it on a public message board. You're just gossiping.

FTW.

And I'm quite confused; I don't understand how repeating hearsay, misinformation, and gossip about something that I have no first-hand knowledge or experience with = good, helpful information. All the spin is dizzying.

They prove useful yet again!

Not when you are writing about a sorority woman's purported New Member Period, it isn't. And that is specifically what I was responding to, as you well know.

Note that I did not write anything about fraternity pledge/new member programs. That is what is meant by sticking to one's own lane.

Maybe it's just because my ovaries are in overdrive with feminist rage right now because I've been reading about the FLDS, but fuck you dnall.

That's all.

LOL

Do you know - I know the Sister Wives are mormons but are they FLDS? Are they of the Jeffs' variety of FLDS?

Also, ovaries are where feminist rage is held, right? I mean - I feel like they've been producing more rage hormones this week than usual (I'm in like, defcon 5).

Wow. Good thing this little gem of info was the first sentence of the post or I would have missed finding out that we're dealing with a dirty old man.

And before I get criticized for being a terrible username, I didn't open this particular wound. Ripped the bandage clean off, maybe, but you can't put it out there and expect it not to effect people's judgements when considering this username's posts.

agzg - Colorado City, AZ, (Jeffs' stronghold) is one scary planet and not a place I ever intend to visit. According to Wikipedia, the Sister Wives belong to the Apostolic United Brethren Church. Different than the FLDS.

And defcon 5 - made me giggle! move over, move over - there's room on the sofa, right?

Hm. I figured they weren't super Jeffs' variety because they wear regular clothes, but you never know.

There's some sort of sofa I should know about?

Right?? I was just going to comment on that. You're at least 38, and your girlfriend is an active?

:confused:

The one where we go when our ovaries are raging? that one? :o (lost in translation...sorry!)

Exsqueeze me? Are you trying to put me back in the red tent?!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE