Hazing: Is it always bad?
 

I will making a speech to a group in my city about hazing. I am a member of a local fraternity that was founded in 1923. We are a fraternity that has only one chapter, so we don't have a national. I was initiated in 1992 and during my pledge season, myself and all 15 of my pledge brothers were "hazed." Hazed under the dictionary definition of hazing, that is. Which I take to mean: anything that anyone may consider embarrasing, or a little hard to do. I have looked at many threads about hazing here, and I guess I would consider most of what was done in my pledge season as pledging. We did do many things that were hard and difficult and it took me and my 15 pledge brothers to get through it. We struggled and fought and persevered. And in the end I was proud to call these men my brothers. I was also paddled. One lick, one time. I didn't mind, because it was either me or someone else, so I wanted to get it. My pledge brothers felt the same way. However, I do not agree with a lot of the hazing that I am reading about. The excess drinking, the physical abuse or the degrading stuff. I can tell by what I have read here, that most of you disagree with hazing, I can also tell that most of you have not been hazed. What I would really like to find out, is if there is anyone that has been hazed that agrees with it. If you do, why. And just to a small extent, tell me what kind of things did you do. I would also like to hear from those of you that were hazed and don't agree with it. I would really like to use this forum as evidence for my speech in Louisiana. If you do not want your message printed and used in my speech, please say so.

Hootie, Luv you for that and Luv you for your PIX!!!:)

hazing
 

We don't haze in my chapter either, nor do I agree with physical abuse or anything of the sort. However, I do have something that is somewhat interesting and funny to share. After the pledging period is over and we ask them if there's anything they didn't like or would like to change about the program, almost all of them say they wish we did more scary stuff. They wished we would do stuff like call them up in the middle of the night and tell them to meet somewhere, etc. becuase they said that would have made it more fun. They wanted more pressure. Can you believe that? I know that when I went through I expected stuff like that to happen because that's the stereotype, the kind of stuff you see in movies. I guess some just expect and sort of look forward to that adrenaline rush type stuff that used to go on. Just thought I's share that with everybody.....has anyone else's chapter experienced this?:confused: :)

Yes!

Our chapter has that too. When I went through, we made little interview sheets to get to know the inititated members. What fun! Stuff like "where were you born" and "how old were you the first time you kissed a guy?" Totally harmless, but we are not allowed to do that anymore. I still look at my interview folder when I get to missing some of my sisters who have graduated. Stuff like that is barely worth reading when you read the stories about the alcohol poisonings.

Did I feel degraded? No, actually, I felt empowered-gave me an excuse to talk to the women who intimidated me (and I don't mean they went out of their way to do that-what frosh New Member in her right mind wouldn't have been a little reserved in front of Senior sisters?)

Did it cause me physical harm? No, but I bet some of the old sisters in the house had sore hands from writing on so many of the forms!

Would I be ashamed to tell my Grandmother, or Pastor about them? NO!



When our 'new' New Members see our interview folders, or hear us talk about them, they ask why we don't do them any more.

Sheesh, sometimes people get a bit overzealous about calling things hazing. Just my $.02.

Lordy ...
 

After hearing of all the hazing incidences (men and women) that have occured this past MONTH, much less fall, I really can't believe that anyone could accept hazing.

There are enough pressures on Greeks already without flouting the worst PR thing that could happen - hazing. Univeristies don't want Greeks because of the bad PR of Greeks. Students don't want to join because of (primarily) hazing and the lack of individuality.

Hazing just reinforces the "Greek" stereotype - what does it have to take for people to realize that your actions are what people see as Greek behavior - positive or not. Sisterhood and brotherhood means having respect and trust of each other, that hazing in itself is morally (much less legally) wrong. These are KIDS we are talking about - they don't know their own limits, and every year, there is a tragedy that someone has to live with for the rest of their lives - I don't think that is what we send our sons and daughters to college for.

I was an older student when I joined, and had my chapter even attempted to 'haze' me, I would have walked as well as my entire NM class. There is no place or reason for hazing anymore - if you can't build brotherhood or sisterhood on common interests and positive experiences, and most importantly, RESPECT without hazing, well, you have truly missed out the fabulous friends I still have after pledging 9 years ago.

*Sorry* to be on a soapbox, but I could have made friends without a sorority - I just felt I could contribute more to student life than just a student number. As an alumnae now, I supervise and counsel chapters, and they have a zero tolerance towards hazing, and pride themselves on it. I only hope that other young men and women have the chance to experience Greek life positively

Just some food for thought ....

I am rapidly coming to the belief that "hazing" is becoming a loaded term similar to "rape" or "animal abuse". IT is a word that has become so politicized, filled with symbolic meaning, and sensitized, that like the descriptive words above, it has become near impossible to discuss the issue rationally. A literal Taboo topic.

The word has become almost a slogan. How do you argue against a slogan? You don't, you either choose sides or shut up.

Its a pretty predictable result of human behavior being made into a political issue. *yawn* And equally as boring and as dangerous as everytime it has been done before.



I guess the world is changing a little bit, I mean now you can "almost" talk about "masturbation" vs. it being a political/social/religious taboo from the past . . . although I am still waiting for my palms to turn hairy and my sight to go blind, Although honestly I should have just spontaneously combusted by now ;)

There are many that probably think that reference was totally off topic, buts its the same technology to establish a social control around a word and an ill-defined behavior. Masturbation is becoming a deconstructed taboo in the mainstream . . . hazing is currently being constructed into an active taboo topic that can be invoked to condemn people for behaviors that are vaguely defined with uncertain consequences.

James, you have finally hit the nail on the head. However, you didnt' really answer any of the questions I asked to discuss. You did though, provide me with the answer to why no one is willing to discuss this topic maturely. I think that maybe I should have narrowed my topic down a little bit. Maybe to "Do you think that the FIPG definition of hazing is too strict?" I have come to the conclusion that this website is loaded with brothers and sisters who haven't been hazed and have no tolerance for it. I think James said it right that the word "hazing" has such a negative connotation that no one seems to be able to look beyond the word. I want to reiterate that I do not agree with nor condone any extreme forms of hazing. I get just as sick as you all do when I see something in the news about a pledge, or NM as you guys call them, going to the hospital or even dying because of some active making them drink too much. It sickens me to hear of pledges having to go the hospital because someone beat their ass 30 times with a paddle. I think that kind of hazing is stupid, irresponsible, degrading, and utterly wrong. But I also think that it is because of these frats' actions that frats that do haze in a controlled way are lumped together in the same category. NeonPi you said that many students don't go Greek because of hazing. In my fraternity, we only rush guys that go Greek because of hazing. We don't keep very many secrets from the guys that rush us. They know pretty much exactly what they're getting into when they sign their bid. We do not do anything that puts our pledges in any danger. We also give our pledges the power to tell us if they refuse to do something. That is one of the biggest things that we want our pledges to understand. You should never do anything that you would not want your brother to do. We allow our pledges to stand up for themselves. That does not mean we don't go beyond the FIPG definition of hazing. It just means that we do so in a respectful and very careful way. No pledge has to prove their loyalty or whatever by drinking. That's just not what we do. We do require signatures for them to get to know the actives. They are required to do some physical fitness activities to stay in shape. And there are some things that we do that are funny and stupid. But never anything that puts our pledges' safety at risk. I think that there are a lot of other fraternities and maybe even sororities that feel the same way and "haze" in a responsible manner. I'm not sure if any those people look at this website, but I know first hand of at least 15 other frats and sororities at 8 different universities in 4 different states that do. I have read all the opinions of why hazing is horrible and so bad and most, if not all, of these opinions are from people who have never gone through anything. If were never hazed, how do you know how bad it is? I feel sorry for crazyleggedsigma that their sorority can't have an interview form filled out. Am I the only one that thinks that is absolutely ridiculous? I passed out questionairres to people at school about their hazing experiences. Is this hazing too? Look, I'm all for kicking people out of school that do intentional harm to another person. Making someone drink, no matter how much, or beating the crap out of someone is intentional harm. But I sincerely feel that some hazing should be allowed. Especially if the pledges agree to it up front.

I've said this on a lot of threads. I'll say it once again.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference what I think, what James thinks or what anyone else on this board thinks.

Hazing is against the law.

Hazing is against the rules of every National/International Greek Letter Organization I'm aware of. They have reasons for that. Liability is one. There are others.

Unless someone changes that, if a chapter hazes and gets caught, it will lose its' charter and be closed.

That alone makes it bad -- or at least its' results.

Reflecting on my post above, I think I'd better take a deep breath and back off on my frustration regarding this kind of question.

Obviously, most of us do try to seriously and fairly consider what the other members think. I am always impressed when I read James arguments, whether I agree with them or not.

My deep concern is for the chapters that are being closed because they simply won't abide by the rules.

At Karnea, the every two year Delta Tau Delta International conference, they hang banners for each chapter on the walls around the ballroom. Four years ago, to make a point, at the opening ceremony the chapter consultants were asked by the President to take down the banners of all of the chapters that had closed since the last Karnea.

There were eleven of them. In two years.

It was sobering -- with no pun intended.

I think (hope) that is one of the reason that very few Delt chapters have been in the news for hazing/alcohol violations. Don't misunderstand. I know that some of our chapters break the rules and some probably still haze secretly. We're not angels. But they know that if we catch them, they're history.

By the way, we figure that the Fraternity has the manpower to colonize two or three schools per year.

Do the math.

In two years we lose eleven chapters and, hopefully, colonize six. What does that do for the overall size, strength and stature of the Fraternity?

Nothing good.

And I just have to keep coming back to the fact that it isn't only against the rules -- it's against the law.

I would hate like hell to be the advisor of a chapter that is closed because of breaking the rules/law. I'm not particularly interested in getting sued either.

So, while I candidly admit that I think some of the definitions of hazing are crazy -- it just doesn't matter unless the laws or definitions can be changed.

Fraternally,
DeltAlum

DeltAlum, I hear what you're saying. You're right that in the regard that as long as hazing is against the law, it's not exactly the best thing to do. The main thing that I disagree with, is that it does matter what James thinks, it does matter what you think, and it does matter what I think. What fraternities and sororities need to realize is that if we don't stand up for what we believe in, we will continue to let lawmakers dictate what we do. I'm not saying that my definition of hazing is right. I just feel that the current FIPG definition is ridiculous. You said it yourself that you think some of the definitions of hazing are crazy. It does matter in that you and all of us have the power to get it changed. Hazing laws have been put in place to protect people. Tell me who needs to be protected from filling out an interview form. What normal person will be scarred for life by being called "pledge" for a couple of months. Individual states have written laws against hazing. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that each state's law against hazing is different. I'd really like to know what is different and I think that it will probably be different from the FIPG definition. Unlike Delta Tau Delta, the fraternity I belong to does not have a national. We have absolutely no desire to have a national. But that does not mean that we don't use just old fashioned common sense when it comes to hazing our pledges. The main thing that I've seen in the news about hazing all stems from alcohol. I think that alcohol has caused the word hazing and it's definition to snowball. I don't necessarily think that alcohol should be barred from rush functions or fraternity functions as long as those consuming are of legal age. I do agree with strict punishment for those fraternities and the members who force pledges to drink any amount. But like I said before, I would really like to discuss the other aspects of hazing. I think most people will agree with you that some definitions of hazing are crazy. I think that if more people would talk about the other aspects of hazing and get away from the drinking and beating the crap out of someone, hazing could be a much more rational topic to discuss.

Clarification
 

Just to clairfy ....

When I said "students don't want to join because of hazing", I was referring to students who read the news reports/rumours on campus/ etc. and want nothing to do with Greeks because they don't want to go through the hassle/possible hazing themselves.

that's all :)

PS - you may want to visit the Centre for the Study of the College Fraternity (http://www.indiana.edu/%7Ecscf/) - they run LOTS of studies, and have interesting information - good and bad

:D

is it always bad?
 

Dear all previous posts,

To the original post let me explain myself before I answer your question. My chapter in the past has been known for hazing. We have moved past that to a now non-hazing program. I was hazed, and in a untraditional matter. No for me to answer the question you asked. I do believe hazing is good for pledges to a certain extent. I would not be who I am now if it was not for pledgeship. Now in no way do I condone embarassment, forcing someone to drink or do drugs, or making someone do something they do not want to do. When you push a pledge class to do something together it builds unity.

The way I feel after a non-hazing program as been instituted now is that you can create those same situations without hazing. And the thing you need to remember most is that flat out it is against the law. And to answer your question about state law's most state's describe the law as forcing someone to do something that the whole chapter does not participate in.

I don't really want to get into the whole "is hazing wrong" thing again, but, Beggar, I would recommend using the NIC definition of the word rather than the dictionary (granted that you're not a member of NIC, I still think it would be more appropriate/applicable).

Apples and oranges
 

:o In regards to the "hazing" acts that happen in some parts of our military.........

I don't think that you can really compare the US military (protecting our country, risking your life, wars, etc.) with joining a GLO. The two just can't be compared.

Re: Apples and oranges
 

We're not talking about the organizations or military we're talking about hazing. We should compare them. Those who have the power of arms should be examined most closely in a democratic society.

Re: Re: Apples and oranges
 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you :) I am speaking of hazing within the military, and not necessarily military academies. (after all you go to school to learn and get an education). I think that the military has to seek out ways to establish a relationship between the soldiers (whether it be through hazing or otherwise). After all these are SOLDIERS....who will probably go on to fight wars, protect oneanother in foreign lands, function under stressful adn deadly circumstances, etc. Granted, I do not think that anyone should be hazed almost until the point of death, but what I am saying is that I can see the reason to use a form of hazing in the military......within a GLO, no I can't. Pledging (such as scavenger hunts and things of that nature) used in GLO is a different story altogether.

What it all boils down to is Risk Management!!:o

Do any of you wonder where in the hell your money goes to your Nationals?:confused:

Many times a signicant % goes to Rish Management, Insurance to pay for DUMB ASS things that Chapters do! This covers Law Suits that is seems more and more are finding out that they cannot do these things!

Think how much you National Dues would decrease if it was not for Insurance! :confused:

Many Nationals are also Like any other Business losing money and are in The Money Throughs as each and every Chapter is along with us as individuals!

Hell, I own a business, but if I had to pay for attention, I would be in trouble! You pay everything else be for you pay your self!:(

No, I believe that some forms of "hazing" actually bring pledges closer together. I'm not talking about drinking three kegs of beer or being starved for five days.

Bridget3 D, what is your definition of hazing? :confused:

Anytime some one is harmed whether in the Militaty or GreekDom, or life in General, IT IS WRONG!

There are Laws about this and Prison time can come from it! Dah Does that help answer your question?

I don't agree with hazing in the way that most people define it (you know, physically dangerous activities or things that might give people a complex a mile wide), but I think the hazing paranoia is out of control. I wouldn't mind being led blindfolded to a bonfire...what harm is there in that? (Except for the fact that I'm afraid of the dark.) The semester I pledged, we had a scavenger hunt to find out who our bigs were, and they left notes for us to find all over campus that led us to the middle of the quad where all our bigs were waiting with gifts. I had a blast doing it, but we had to stop it this year because it's considered "hazing." Now, in my opinion, that's a little ridiculous. It seems that nowadays everything is construed as hazing! During my dad's pledging days, he and his pledge brothers were blindfolded and driven 30 miles from their university by the actives and dropped off...to find their way back on foot. And that's the most innocent thing they did. Now THAT is hazing, you all. Scavenger hunts, bonfires, etc. are not hazing, in my book. So to answer your question, no, not all hazing is bad, if we define hazing by these new overly-sensitive rules.

Tom: All I have to say is DITTO!

Hazing is hazing and it is wrong. If anyone needs a definition and/or examples I can send you many! I was PH VP and have tons of paper on the subject!

Blindfolding and leading pledges into the woods is hazing. If it is something that your sorority doesn't let your parents, college, or headquarters know, then it is probably hazing. Do you tell the women going through rush that they will experience this if they pledge? If the pledge refuses to be blindfolded or participate, will there be consequences.
My friend pledged a sorority (not mine) for one week. They woke her up at dawn on Saturday and led all the pledges to the gym where the sisters started screaming at the pledges. She started to walk away. They tried to stop her by telling her that everyone in the sorority went through this. She said that she wasn't that desperate for friends. Unfortunately, most pledges aren't that self-confident.

3D:

P.S. Check out your organization's web site and NPC. There is not a fine line between hazing and hazing. Just b/c something isn't typical animal house doesn't mean it isn't hazing.

If you feel the need to hold events that you cannot share with your national officers/national magazine/panhellenic office then you should not be invovled in that activity.

There is no discussion, go ask your risk managment chair or PH advisor, I promise they would have tons to say regarding this subject.

If your chapter must haze to teach new members then your new member program needs to be examined.

Ok We need to seperate the legal definition of hazing, from the administrative definition, and the visceral or emotional reaction.

Legally a great many of the activities fall under a broad based legal definition of hazing. I am sure someone could cut and paste a statute.

The law is not completely blind though and there are issues of harm, risk and a test based on what a reasonable person might do under reasonable circumstances.

So if you have a benign scavenger hunt no one gets hurt and there is no built in risk to people participating nothing is likely to come up of it. Legally. And by built in Risk I am talking about Scavenger hunts that involve stealing or maybe getting autographs from hookers or somehing else that incurrs a risk.

Administratively (National GLO), just from being on this site and some personal experiences, I would say that the larger National sororities are stricter in terms of hazing definitions and more likely to come down hard on a chapter very quickly. Even for things that a National Fraternity might not blink an eye out. So beware.

Administratively (College) will also have another set of rules, but are primarily reactive, and won't be as likely to do something unless someone really complains. Then the reaction will usually be based on the climate of the Greek system, the severity of the incident, and the just who the Greek advisor is.

another Caveat is that sometimes laws and rules are passed and then used to make it easier to build a case. So lets say you do a buch of activities that don't "seem" like hazing emotionally, but fit the legal list, and then someone gets hurt during something like a scavenger hunt.

Now the police or whoever can go back and review all your past activities to build a case against you, you required memorization, the scavenger hunt, they wore your pin, new member t-shirts etc. And at this point even if these things were hypothetically voluntary, because someone was hurt they are going to be considered hazing activities due to implied peer pressure to ensure compliance.

Interestingly, you would have to have a certain percentage of the pledge class always opt out of something without consequences in order to lessen your liability.

Sorry to go on endlesly, but it seems a lot of people disagreeing but are coming from different legitimate viewpoints.

Some of the trust activities can be considered hazing but do build positive bonds . . I like rope courses myself.

So the real issue is just to cover yourself and prevent legal liability, University problems, or your National coming down on you while recognizing that all three have different persepctives, and still trying to create a solid bond between the pledges and the chapter.. . Good luck.

I'm with Bridget3D on this one...

I'm sorry but this is such a lost battle. There is no way in hell that all groups will come together and figure of one clear-cut definition of "hazing." I think that all of this anti-hazing crap has gotten way out of control. I am against your stereotypical definition of "hazing." Abuse in any way, shape, or form should not be tolerated whatsoever. But when it comes down to telling someone that they can't hold a scavenger hunt (not stealing or obtaining anything illegal) or conduct interviews to get to know members that is just bonkers to me. God forbid that that the pledges get to know the members and vice versa before initiation. Why would you want to join an organization if you didn't know the members very well before you got initiated. If you don't take the time as a pledge to get to know your future sisters you could come to find out later that you are in the wrong place!

All I can say is that if you are dumb enough to be "hazed" in the bad form then you deserve it. If someone would have tried to make me do something that I didn't want to do then I would have got up and walked out.

I wish my chapter would have made me work a little bit harder for my letters. When you work a little bit harder for something it means more to you.

Have a nice day :)

James, that was a really good explanation!

Interviews aren't necessarily hazing unless 1) the new members have certain timelines on completing them, 2) they are mandatory and 3) the sisters/brothers are also required to do interviews of the new members. But to be honest, I just think there are better ways of getting to know people without the interview. I did the interviews as a new member, and I still have my interview book, and it was fun. Unfortunately, when the interview book coincides with memorizing information about someone instead of just learning about them through discussion, it becomes hazing.

As for the scavenger hunt, there is the inherent risk of say, getting hit by a car if you're out at night on the streets. Now, I know the response is, well be careful and such. But, if you're on a time limit and have to find 50 things in an hour, you're not thinking about looking both ways before crossing streets and what not. You're thinking that you have the challenge of getting these 50 things in an hour, and you only have 20 with 20 minutes to go.

Talk as much as you'd like about what's hazing and what isn't, but the fact of the matter remains that as long as horrid hazing incidents continue to occur, the activities you utilize with your new members will be under the same stringent scrutiny.

*stepping off soapbox*

Does your International Headquarters know about this? How about the University or College Administration? If they were to find out, there would be problems for your chapter which would probably lead to some type of disciplinary measures if you are lucky and they don't yank your charter.
It is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. I know of what I write because when I was pledging and we did something similar, I was the one injured. Of course it was accidental and never happened before, but there is always a first and unfortunately it was me. It was the wake up call that my chapter needed and we changed to a positive pledge program. Let me emphasize that no one expected me or anyone else to wind up injured and in an emergency room, but it happened to me.

In my organization interviews or whatever you want to call it are done both ways...member to pledges, pledges to members. If I would not have done these I would have missed out on getting to know a lot of people. Everyone makes up their own questions, it can be two questions or twenty questions. This is not information that needs to be memorized. I realize that a lot of groups use this information unfairly and pretty much ruin things for everyone.

As for the scavenger hunt, we don't place time limits on them. When they get done, they get done. We set ours up so girls get to meet other sororities and fraternities in the area. And it is not set up where the girls are against each other. They combine cars and ride together. And the pledge educators follow them around to make sure that they do not get lost and also to make sure that no one gives them a hard time. Everything is planned ahead of time. Everyone knows exactly where everyone is going to be.

If you are in a Greek organization then I think you should know by now to look both ways when you cross the street. You should have learned that in elementary school. Some people need to take responsibility for their actions! If someone gets hit by a car it's not the organizations fault, it's theirs for being stupid. Yes, I understand that freak accidents happen...one of my sister's boyfriends was hit by a car and killed two and a half weeks ago. I bet you if he had been Greek they would have blamed it on the Greek system some how.

Anyway, have a nice day :)

Well, here's the thing. AOX, you are local right? When I was part of a local that is the exact same mind set I was in. One day, after the fact you will change your mind and it will be too late, you will lose your chapter and that's your own chapter's issues. No matter how small the act, if it is hazing, it is wrong. In NC no matter what it is, it is illegal and that's the end of it.

3D: No reason that you should be in that mind set...you must be new to Tri Delt. I promise DDD didn't get to be such a strong organization with that type of additude.

James and Cream: You rock!

Being Greek to me is about discretionary effort. It matters not what you do not do, it is what you do to go above and beyond the norm and call me crazy that includes not breaking the law.

LexiKD - Thanks! I never thought about the local to national thing. When I pledged, my sorority had been a local for several years and national for less than two. The local had wonderful women, but hazing was also a part of it. Even after I had been a sister for a while, we did things that would have been considered hazing without us even realizing it until a rep came and told us. The thing about hazing is that many of the people who do it are actually nice people who don't realize how bad it is and not just for the pledges. You can jeopardize the future of your organization. No tradition is worth that.

Cream: I AGREE! As a local we did some great stuff but we had only our one chapter on the line. As a national member I feel like it makes you more creative and think about the big picture.

Since becoming a KD, I have learned that you can accomplish the same results through a tough new member program. As a KD new member I pledged my attention and devotion to the betterment of our chapter and our organization. As a local and as a new member of a national group it is hard to see past chapter life. But as a KD, I know that it wasn't just my 65 member chapter that I was working for, it was the other 170,000+ other KDs out there.

As a new member, I had requirements and I felt as if I did deserve my letters, in fact I don't think my pledging is over. I earn my letters everyday by giving back, it didn't end when I was initiated. And no amount of hazing could have made me more loyal.

Locals are more self centered in that respect and it is hard to make groups that have different ideals to be on the same wave length. Traditions are great, but traditions are the root of many accidents...there comes a time and place to move with the times and if your organization is not important enough to see the light then it is unfortunate that one day something bad will happen and it will be too late.

This reminds me of an SNL commercial parody I saw last night, instead of the EPT test it was the "HHT" headache test - you drew blood, waited 2 hours, to see if you had a headache, and then if you did you could medicate it. Ridiculous, obviously.

Here's a hint: If you don't know you were hazed unless someone tells you you were, you weren't! And I don't mean FIPG definitions, I mean what hazing REALLY is. If anyone read The Morning After by Katie Roiphe, she gives a similar example....women do not feel they were sexually harassed until they're told that they were, and then they need to seek counseling. It's all part of the victim mentality in this country.

And people who haze are NOT nice people...ever...they're assholes...and every single one of them should be drummed out of the Greek system. I'm talking about people who beat their pledges and force bottles of vodka down their throats. NOT people who coordinate pledge/sister interviews and scavenger hunts. That is PLEDGING. Not hazing. If my sisters-to-be would have laid a hand on me, I wouldn't have needed a policy or a national rep to tell me something was seriously messed up here!

I don't think there is such a thing as a national pledge program that is right for EVERY chapter...I had no problem getting interviews for my whole chapter (35) but I sure as heck don't expect our chapter at Penn State (100+) to do that! That is called allowing for differences, and while it isn't as easy as making a lot of sweeping generalizations and overcautious rules, I believe it makes for stronger chapters, and stronger chapters make a stronger national organization and Greek system. I think some of the nationals are realizing this and relaxing the highly structured programs that were swept in 6-7 years ago.

Also, paint me purple and call me channelling shulttzz, but the local bashing on here (no matter how euphemistic it may be) really needs to stop. If your local couldn't see the bigger picture and get its act together before a national came in and set you on a path, that's your experience. If locals were all so frigging clueless and horrible, do you think that any of them would be left anywhere? There are good locals and bad locals....there are good chapters of nationals and bad chapters of nationals. Anyone who believes otherwise needs to open their eyes and wake up.

33: I hope you are not assuming that I am "bashing" anything.

I was pointing out the different Point of View and there is a difference b/w looking out for one chapter vs an entire organization.

No matter what the intention, hazing is hazing. Some "fun" pledge bonding is hazing and it is unfortunate that some bad events have hurt the rest of us, but it is the responsibility of your organization to have a strong new member program free from anything that is considered hazing.

I'm sure that anyone in favor of a little hazing to help out respect b/w new members would have a different out look after they checked out the green book, I'm sure there would be no discussion after looking at it in black and white and seeing what happend to chapters that do in fact haze.

I don't know why this is even something to battle out.

I'm sure that all of us took part in something that may be considered as hazing. My best friend told me that she had to swear to God in her pledging and initiation ritual, and it is one of the NPC sororities. We just don't broadcast it to everyone.

Please stop chewing me out.

According to the NPC website this is hazing in case there are any questions, "Hazing is defined as any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity. All member groups will affirm their policies denouncing hazing and inform their membership of this NPC position denouncing hazing through mailings and through their inter/national magazines."

33girl - Actually, I did not bash locals. I wrote of MY own experience with MY own chapter. I never wrote anything about any other organization. I was injured during a pledging event similar to something that Bridget3D described, and I recounted my own experience as an example of what can potentially go wrong. I knew that I was uncomfortable with what was happening at the time. I knew that I was hazed when I was rushed to an emergency room. Later, I didn't know that some of the things we did as sisters would be considered hazing until our International HQ and NPC very specifically outlined what was hazing. And yes, the sisters were and still are nice and good people. For the record there was never any alcohol or violence which is hazing. The word for people who engage in this behavior is not "assholes" but criminals. My concern is not about scavanger hunts or pledge/sister interviews, but blindfolding people and leading them into the woods. The potential for injury is high.
I'm not sure what SNL and Katie Roiphe have to do with this. I am not a part of any "victim mentality" despite what you may believe.

Bridget3D - I agree many of us were hazed. I'm not chewing you out. I just don't want any of your pledges injured as I was. Blindfolding can be dangerous. I just think you and your sorority need to weigh the consequences of a potential injury against the benefits of this event.

3D: You are sure we all took part in hazing? You guessed incorrectly.

I was part of a colony, my New Member Ed was a national officer. She began my chapter on the right track and I will do everything in my power to contiune that.

No one is "chewing out" anyone, we are talking about safty.

Cream - I PM'ed you. For the record, I was not referring to your experience in specific but a general mentality in the US that is not limited to Greeks. I wasn't sure how to put that all in my post without writing a book though.

Lexi- it may seem as though locals are only looking out for themselves to you, but in reality, at schools where the majority of groups are local, I think the bonds can be far stronger just because they have no national to go to, they have to rely on each other. It just sounded to me that you were saying to AOX81 that her chapter was hazing and they would eventually get caught. I found that very uncool, and considering some of the unfounded crap that got said about your chapter on here, which you and your sisters were rightly ticked about, it disturbed me that you would turn around and say things like that to someone else.