Etiquette?
 

I'm the Collegiate-Alumnae Liaison for my chapter and I was thinking about holding a luncheon with our Alum chapter so all the girls can network and get to know the Alumnae chapter members... but recently we had an event that included dinner and I was a little worried by some of the table manners I saw. (Napkins for example are usually better than licking your fingers clean at the table.) I don't want to give up on my event idea, but at the same time I have NO CLUE how to broach the subject gently and politely so that we don't end up looking like really poor representatives for the sorority. :(

So: Has anyone else ever had this kind of problem? Does anyone have suggestions for how to politely try to remind people of certain points of etiquette? The only thing I can think of is to arrange a "business etiquette" seminar and make sure it covers table manners.... I'd love any ideas/help here....

We had this, only it was sponsored by the university. I think it's a great idea. It's something that will benefit everyone, and you can stress how important it is because job interviews can be held over lunch. That, and at some point you have to learn how to use the right silverware with the right meal course!

When I was in college, we had a dinner at our advisor's house, and (since not everyone had been in formal dinner situations before, and there was no need to call anyone out individually on it or risk embarrassment by not educating people prior), we just did a powerpoint workshop on table etiquette in chapter.

Thanks y'all... I think I'll talk to my advisor or the guy who oversees our Greek life and maybe one of the two can put me in touch with someone on University staff who can help arrange something like that.

Something that might make the prospect of an etiquette session more exciting for the women in your chapter is to co-host it with a fraternity. That way it can be a "fun" event that also serves a purpose, and will be something a lot of your members will be excited about.

Maybe kind of tie it into a "Pretty Woman" theme...

Do you have a house? This is the type of thing housemoms love to get involved in.

Back in the day when I was "Quill Chair" (more or less the etiquette person) I put a note card on each table at formal dinners with a table etiquette rule (never divorce the salt from the pepper, food is always passed to the right, bread is always broken regardless of the size, only cut the piece of food you're about to eat, not the whole steak, unless you're a 4 year old that is, etc.) You can get ideas for this from any good etiquette book. I have been appalled at the sorority women I've known since college who don't know even these basics of table etiquette. Having a dinner with alums or a fraternity is a good way to test these skills, but I'd start teaching them now to avoid embarrassment at the big dinner, and giving it to them one small lesson at a time might teach without nagging or boring them to death. But I promise this is a life skill every body should know and will definitely use in later life.

I saw a thing on TV recently that kids are not even learning how to use knives and forks because everything they eat is fried finger food. How about THAT kid ending up in a sorority or fraternity? YIKES.

If you want a list of suggestions for note cards, PM me. I'll see if I can remember the 15 or so I came up with.

My chapter has an Etiquette Dinner every year and parents were even invited this time (last year, sororities were and we cooked for them).

Etiquette dinners run very smoothly and cheaply and they're not boring; they're pretty interesting. :)

Etiquette is generally a good thing and it helps you to mingle in different environments. However, I recommend caution for these kinds of programs for two reasons:

1. People have differing opinions on some parts of etiquette. Make sure you are teaching business etiquette and aren't just teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette."
2. Make sure you know the difference between table etiquette and "teaching gender." I believe in teaching people how to eat at the table and other basic things but I don't agree with teaching people things like "women have to do this and men have to do that." Some etiquette classes delve into the gender part of it all. Blah.

In other words, don't be surprised if some people are resistant to certain aspects of table etiquette because, beyond the formality of it all, some of it seems ridiculous to some people.

^^^ That reminds me of our formals one year. A sister brought a date who was from Georgia. Every time one of the females stood up to leave the table, he stood up too. We had NO idea why the hell he was doing it! He explained where he came from, that was the polite thing to do; when a lady leaves the table, any male present should rise to assist her if needed. We laughed, because he was up and down a LOT. It was not something we were used to in the slightest.

Bless his heart and in some settings he would've been considered the most awesomest of the awesome.*** However, I can't help but be a bit embarassed for him because he was doing what he had been socialized to do. Yet, he hadn't captured that what he had been socialized to do was perceived as strange in that environment.

*** I don't know whether this guy said this but I hope people don't say things like "I'm from Georgia and we..." as though what they were taught is what the average person from that area is taught. In reality, there are social class, generational, and racial and ethnic differences in what people are taught. That's also another issue with etiquette classes because you have to be able to teach more objective etiquette practices without delving into the social hierarchy of it all.

It might seem ridiculous to you, but in formal situations in the south for instance, the man is supposed to stand up for women, open doors, etc. If he doesn't, it can be perceived as rude. The most important etiquette when it comes to the table is the basics, since that doesn't vary much, but it's important to know what's appropriate in your current setting. If it's not necessary to employ those customs in the current setting then by all means don't, but it's important to be armed with the knowledge for situations that call for it. Especially since for many people this will all come to play at some point in their careers.

It would definitely be worth it to have a seminar, and remind the ladies that these rules are important to understand (at the least, the basics, like you said...use the napkin). I wish my chapter had done etiquette lessons. I was forced into learning that stuff as a kid (which I now appreciate) but could always use a refresher and many girls could have used a basic lesson.

LOL @ "supposed to" as though this is some objective standard.

It can be perceived as rude. The bolded is the operative phrase because context matters.

I'm from the south. A man not standing up for women and not always opening the doors for women has never made the building burn down at the many business meetings and (noncollegiate) galas that I have attended over the years. Opinions on etiquette matter because socialization patterns do not go unchallenged; and if you do an etiquette class where gender etiquette is brought up, don't be surprised if there are people who scoff. A smarter alternative is to teach them that context matters and you should be attentive to the context.

I think the basic table etiquette is a must no matter where you live. Which cutlery to use, what goes where and on which plate, how to properly eat your soup/bread/meat. Keep it simple and everyone will benefit.

I remember going to a New Years party at the most beautiful place ever. My (future) brother-in-law's close friend came from big money, and this guys parents where having a new years party in New Albany (the wealthy suburb of Columbus, the neighboring house belongs to the Rahals, the racing famliy). I can't call it a house, because it wasn't, it was a mansion (complete with bowling alley, indoor swimming pool and "Pub" in the basement level, then 3 stories above that, and one wing of the house was an old church from somewhere in Eastern Europe that they had dismantled and shipped here then reassembled and made a part of the house - the fireplace was so huge you could stand inside of it). Anyway, even with what I knew about manners and etiquette, I was still very intimidated because this was the fanciest dinner I had ever been to in my short 21 years. In order to compensate, I observed what the other people were doing, and followed suit. (But even I knew that when my other future BiLs date asked for a glass of white zin, she would be looked at funny).

For your enjoyment, read the archived stories. www.etiquettehell.com

I agree.

Please don't give me another procrastination tool. :)

While I believe in the importance of teaching "social graces," I think that learning to be observant and read your surroundings is ten times more useful in life.

In adult settings, I've found (as have the other adults in my life) that it does matter when people don't know basic etiquette, which yes, includes opening doors, etc. down here. Especially at dinners and social events. No one said the "house will burn down", but why not just do what's polite in the situation? My point is that it is important to know the etiquette for the setting. People who do business with international clients, for instance, learn the basics for the region they are visiting.

IMO it's important to give people the correct tools. They don't have to use them, but at least they're armed with the knowledge.

Dr Phil, that website has so many stories on it that will make you die with laughter, and cringe with embarassment. It's a must read!

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here." :)

Table etiquette is arguably as basic as it comes and, like IrishLake said, that's a good idea regardless of where you're from. You will learn more etiquette things along the way as you travel to different places and spend time around different people.

Then we agree.

Therefore, like I said, people need to know the difference between teaching "table etiquette" versus teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" and "teaching gender." Don't confuse the three and teach people to read context.

(Afterall, if they have gotten all the way to college and haven't learned yet that men are "supposed to" open the door for them in some settings, it isn't a sorority's job to teach them that.)

I guess I just don't go to the right parties. I'm from Atlanta and live in Savannah, and no man has ever stood up when I leave the table unless it's a coincidence :(

Which again, comes back to arming them with the knowledge. They don't have to use it, but it's good to know. You might not consider those things basic, but many, many people do. No one's going to have a stroke because Mr. X forgets to hold the door open for his date, but some people will take note, and that's just reality. It's just like the example I used of people who do business internationally. They arm themselves with the correct etiquette for the region and business setting, and this is no different. Which is why it's important to be taught these things, then pick up on when they are necessary and when they are not. And that is as simple as observing your surroundings.

ETA: IrishLake's story about the formal date from Georgia is a good example of knowing your surroundings. When everyone at the table looks very confused as to why you're standing up for the ladies, it's time to just stay seated. Were he at dinner with a bunch of older ladies from back home and didn't stand, they would likely think he was rude or, "Bless his heart, he just doesn't know any better". (Though I will say, he deserves credit for trying to be polite, even if he missed the clues.)

Right---Just don't confuse teaching "table etiquette" with teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" (for southern chapters) and "teaching gender." And don't attempt to impose a certain view of overall etiquette on everyone as though there is a consensus across contexts.

That was always my point.

Correct.

Perfect, as I didn't do any of those things. :) As I said, it's important to teach them these little customs. It's up to them to know when to use them. Sometimes it will be VERY important, and other times it will look silly. The etiquette teacher needs to prepare them for different situations...he/she can't follow them to every social event.

Uh...yeah...I was and still am talking about etiquette teachers and etiquette classes. I don't know what you not doing any of those things has to do with this discussion.


Correct.

Your "don'ts" including the implied "you".

No, you inferred the "you" even though she's been saying the same thing since the beginning of the thread.

Also you do seem to have confusion around it since you identified the young man who stood's actions as "the right thing" that no one else was appreciating.


Seriously, two threads that need pineapple.jpg in the same day...

That is a general you to be applied to etiquette teachers and etiquette classes, just as it was in my very first post.

ETA: ;) But, I can see why "you" thought I was typing to "you" about "you." I don't assume that "you" confuse the three because your posts were only specifically about "southern etiquette" and what men "should" do.

No, I inferred "you" as her post was in direct response to mine, and focused on the fact that I keep saying I think it's important to teach these customs so that the student can use them if need be. I have no confusion whatsoever, but what I do have is respect for those that TRY to be polite, even if are using the wrong customs in the wrong situation. I have respect for the thought behind the actions.


Yes, my posts were directly in response to yours that I quoted, and as those particular posts kept referencing how ridiculous you think some of these things are, I responded accordingly.

You sound really confused. What are you typing about?


No, your post was not directly in response to mine. You attached a whole lot that I did not say. For one, I did not say that it was ridiculous. Re-read my first post again. I often type generally because such topics don't rely on my personal opinion. So don't assume that I am expressing my personal opinion when I type "ridiculous by some" and "some may scoff."

There truly is no reason for me to think this is not your opinion when you use "I think".

DrPhil has not once used those two words in this thread. You have. Gusteau has. The OP has. Irishlake has. WTF are you talking about?

Please tell me where in the following post "I think" occurs.
Now, go back and analyze where it is her personal opinion "I believe" and where it is a more generalized statement "some people."

There'll be a quiz.

Show me where I said that I think it is ridiculous. Good luck.

This thread turned into a jumbled mess lol

Saying what men are "supposed" to do and what women are "supposed" to do is the problem. It's also a problem when you say things are done because it's the "Southern" way of doing things (see the white after labor day thread).

Context matters. In some social settings, it would be odd to for me to stand every time a woman leaves the table. In others (ex. debutante ball or something), it would make sense. I shouldn't feel like I'm "less of a man" or "not as Southern" just because I don't follow every set of rules in every situation.

Based on her very first post, she assumed that I was calling it ridiculous because of "some of it seems ridiculous to some people."

LOL @ knight_shadow. This thread is another reason why I really don't like etiquette classes beyond more basic table etiquette. And I agree with you about "supposed to."

Ah, right she believes, not thinks. Sorry, how is that not personal opinion?

Yes, I elaborated more fully in my post and provided her with basic reading comprehension homework.

I believe that some people don't brush their teeth.

Am I one of the people who doesn't brush their teeth (knight_shadow is) or do I believe that there are such people?

I wish I could be as self congratulating as you guys are. I would never need a pat on the back from anyone. :D