ITT We Discuss Theology
 

I figured since we had quite a few discussion on theology on GC recently, why not start this. This way we won't need to derail another thread or bump the thread that won't die.



PS Frodo if you decide to post in her with your Bible thumping nonsense, I will take the largest version of the Bible I can find and shove it up your ass.

I always thought that Pascals wager was a cop out.

Idk. It seems like a logical choice to me.

http://www.venganza.org/

I'm a big fan of this guy.

I wish more faiths/sects would own up to unsavory things in their past. I like that we're open about Martin Luther making anti-Semitic statements and not just pretending it didn't happen or addressing it when it comes up. I think openly admitting things and not trying to hide it can bring greater healing and understanding.

I'd also like people to realize that even though I attend a church labeled "Evangelical Lutheran Church in America" we're not that kind of evangelical. There's also a lot of difference among the Lutherans, and most are much less liberal than my group. However there are many different groups and movements inside the ELCA, feminist, GLBTQ, leaving the ELCA, charismatic, and so on.

We also allow any person who has ever been baptized to have communion in our church, and we're in full communion with many other "mainline" Protestants, and in some places (Delta Junction, Alaska for example) we're a shared congregation with the Presbyterians. We also have many congregations that worship in languages other than English, including Native American and Alaska Native languages.

Yeah, but there are some trying to get us there. Yoicks.

I'm in a bit of a theological crisis right now so this thread is tres apropos.

I enjoy the missionary position.

My biggest crisis was during the ordination vote in 2009, I almost woke up an Episcopalian. The more I thought about it though, either side of the decision should really be willing to leave the ELCA if they don't like it. Is there anything more Lutheran than leaving your church and starting or joining another one because you don not like how things are run?

I've never changed my faith (baby baptism and confirmation) because I'm welcome to the other mainline Protestant congregations, and I like a lot of the freedom we give our members. Women are completely included and are equal to men (unlike in the other two main Lutheran groups). We allow people to make their own choice about creation and evolution, embrace science and God. Abortion is something we don't want to happen, and we'd like to prevent it but we're against making it illegal and aren't okay with being horrible to people who do get one. We're now allowing ordination of same sex partnered people, but individual congregations don't need to be forced to having those people as pastors if they don't want to.

I think from previous musings we're similar in our worship wants. No rock band at the altar, no speaking in tongues (yeah it happens), more of the old church aspects we grew up with in the more ethnic congregations, oh and how I miss the Green Book and really enjoy individual cups and wafers, or at least not having people touch my body and sharing a cup of the blood.

I'm Catholic, and I refuse to drink out of the cup. Haven't done it since I made my first communion when I was 8.

Part of it is my home church joined CORE. No, I don't live there anymore, but with my dad's death and selling the house and everything...I just feel like this is one more thing I've lost, the church being the same as always. I want something to stay the same.

There's a LCMS church a block from my house. I really like some of the more traditional aspects in the service, but the other Sunday when I went WHOA were they hitting the "women are subservient" thing in the lesson. I also checked out the marriage service (not that I'm doing that soon). And..well...the serve your hub part? No.

The ELCA congregation I love is downtown - it's the one I told GeekyPenguin about so her fiance could see the website. Mary on the altar, Stations of the Cross on the wall...pretty much the most Catholic Lutheran church I've ever been in. I feel myself drawn to the beautiful aspects of Catholicism because of my grandma & great aunt...it helps me feel close to them.

Basically my problem is I've got all these missing my family issues going on and it really screws up the concept of being part of something due to the theology alone.

Oh dear, joining CORE would be a problem for me as well. I wouldn't go to an LCMS church if there was a Protestant church that has more of my views. I am not going to be baptized again so I can have communion in an LCMS church, and frankly my personal life beliefs would be a constant source of cognitive dissonance for me.

I hear you on not being able to go to your home church and have that connection. The church building I grew up in is now a luxury home and the congregation we belong to now has great people, but the building doesn't feel right to me. I miss the huge stained glass windows, the dark wood and pews with three aisles, with a large railed altar. The building in my town now is round, and I always feel so disconcerted sitting that way.

If going downtown is a hassle, is there another Protestant church you could attend in the meantime where you'd feel comfortable and could have communion? I'm not saying give up, but I've had to step away from the jello and hot dish to deal with my faith issues and still have a spiritual life that meets my needs.

I've yet to find an organized church that fits my faith/belief system where I feel comfortable. I have a very strong personal faith and feel that my relationship with Christ/God is a personal thing. Occasionally I feel a need to worship in a structured manner and at those times, I choose to do so in the Roman Catholic church. I choose that because it is the church where I feel closest to God. During and right after college, I attended every type of Christian church I could find and I simply felt most "at home" during the Catholic mass. Communion is probably the biggest reason that I choose that church now, closely followed by the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. I don't feel comfortable having someone spend a long amount of time telling me what the Bible should mean to me. I am of the mind that the Bible is a living piece of work. By that, I mean that the same passage can mean many different things depending on your own perspective and circumstances at the time. It can mean something different during a different period of my life even.

The frodobaggins thread is better.

Yeah, I had hoped this thread would be more philosophical in nature. What do you believe and why? What religious thinkers do you dis/agree with... but since I havent contributed anything myself I really can't complain.

It does make sense and it's very simple stance, but I have a problem with the idea of being a "fair-weather" believer.

I don't think there's enough evidence to support the idea that Jesus was the son of God. I don't even think that Jesus's own words support that he considered himself to be so. I think he was an apocalyptic preacher. He said some awesome things, he said some not quite so awesome things. I'm also fairly certain that even if he were the son of God, present day Christians wouldn't recognize him or his teachings if he walked up to them on Sunday.

I have no idea what is out there as far as a deity or deities. I find I pray to "God" more out of habit than actual belief, and a pagan friend's use of "Goddess" slips in and out of my vocabulary but not really skimming my belief system.

I don't know what kind of afterlife there is, if any. The idea of none doesn't scare me nor does the idea of hell ala frodobaggins. No deity so restrictive deserves my attention, and total absence from Him/Her/It is hardly a loss.

The idea of "shopping" for a new religion is repelling. It seems utterly insincere. I've always educated myself on multiple religions but none seems to resonate with me, and if it didn't strike that inner tone in the first place then it wouldn't really be true to me anyway.

I don't tell my family because it would be a horrible disappointment, but then I hide quite a few things from them beyond that anyway. I can't associate, even in name only, with a Church that would watch children be molested, people with HIV infect others, women die in childbirth, and allow it to continue in the name of preserving church teachings over all else. Even so, I'll probably be there at Christmas Eve mass. :-/

I've learned from a lot of the Catholic theologians, and gleaned from other Christian theologians, and while I can appreciate their contributions to the field of ethics among others, I can't really say that I agree with any of them on the moral/theological aspects at this point. I'm interested in reading non-Western works, but I lack the context to put it together. I'm not getting enough out of the Quran I'm browsing on my Droid for example, I need a textbook-like analysis.


There, philosophical enough for ya?

(TL;DR Hi, I'm agnostic. Or indecisive. I guess.)

My church did leave. We're now LCMC, which is Lutheran Churches in Missions for Christ. So far, the only thing that's REALLY changed at our church (besides removing the references to ELCA in our Constitution and etc) is us now spending our own Benevolence dollars our way, instead of sending them to ELCA to spend for us. We've been able to do a LOT more local philanthropy then we were ever able to before.

Our newest project that we're supporting is this guy who started a cooking school in Charlotte. The school is for poor/unemployed people who need a skill-set. While learning to cook, the students prepare 400+ meals a day for the needy. Teaching a man to fish AND feeding the poor in one shot - that's the best charity idea I've heard of in awhile.

I grew up Methodist with very religious (though liberal, all things considered...they grew up southern baptist) parents and I'm "indecisive", too. My mom now knows this, but it upsets her so we don't talk about it. I still go to church with them on holidays and participate in the services because it makes them happy.

I understand shopping if it's a true search for some sort of fulfillment. But I hate picking a religion based on trends. I've got friends who have done both. I find it disrespectful to use a religion as an accessory.

I have a hard time with radicals from any religion, but my biggest issue regarding religion is the disregard that some have for it. I don't believe the same things that many of my family members do, but I respect that their religion is an integral part of who they are. Exluding those that manipulate teachings of their respective deity for personal gain, people of faith are to be respected as much as anyone else.

I was born and raised atheist, which was pretty hard sometimes in the bible belt. Both my parents were raised in a church, my father's family became disillusioned with the church after a dishonest minister, and my mother's family just slowly stopped going, I think.

I've actually taken a lot of religion and theology classes, so I consider myself pretty knowledgable on the subject, but nothing's ever moved me to believe. (Although I am fascinated with the idea of the historical Jesus, and looking through the gospels to compare stories and try to figure out what Jesus really said and what was embellished or fabricated)

What really bothers me is when people attribute God or Jesus to tiny little things that are clearly human. Why is Jesus helping you find your phone, but didn't stop Katrina from destroying New Orleans? If God is meddling in tiny things like that and not bothering with pedophilia and rape... I'm not impressed.

I somehow knew Vito would start this thread. :D

You mean other than John 10:22-38 and Mark 15:53-65? Of course, then you get into Jesus Seminar questions about whether Jesus really said that or whether it wa added later. And one could argue about what he really meant. Certainly the early Church did, and the arguments have gone on ever since.

But there is also the part of the gospels that indicate that the Sanhedrin wanted him executed for blasphemy, which of course they lacked the authority to do under Roman occupation. The text seems to be clear that the blasphemy was identification with God.

Very true (although, I think there are some who would recognize him -- not sure I'm one, though). On this subect, I recommend The Clowns of God by Morris West (who also wrote The Shoes of the Fishermen.

Anyone familiar with the Taizé Community or the Iona Community? They (particularly the Taizé Community) have been significant influences in my understanding of what it means to be Christian.

I don't think it's "shopping" or a horrible thing any more than it would be if you said to your parents "I realize this is your hometown and I love it, but I hate it and it makes me miserable. I'm going to live someplace where I'm not miserable." Have you actually gone to other houses of worship or just read about them? I don't think you can feel it just reading about it. (This is starting to sound like rush advice. Har.)

Part of the problem I think I'm having is the ELCA church nearest me has a female minister and I just do not feel comfy with a female as the primary minister. I completely support their right to be one, I just don't want to be in their congregation. And then I think...that's kinda messed up...it should be the message that gets me there, not the person it's coming through. So I kind of feel like an a-hole going downtown when there is an ELCA congregation fairly nearby. (Keep in mind that the church I was raised in was literally 3 houses away from me. I guess I just have it set in my mind that church = community.)

As far as another denomination, I really feel I need something with "pomp" and that leaves Catholic and Episcopalian. I'm not going full out Catholic and as far as Episcopalian, the congregations around here left the main church over the gay ordination issue.

Theology is really too broad a topic to be discussed in this way.

I was a Theology minor focusing on Islam and religions of the African diaspora.

And when has that ever stopped us on GC? :p

And I've taken those seminars. Hell a whole Jesus of History, Christ of Faith course. Honestly, not all that convincing, as a whole.

That was clearly the accusation. In addition to the issues I have with the gospels, I find the shoving of Old Testament predictions into Nostradamus like tangles to prove that it really was Jesus who was the Messiah, particularly evident in Matthew but done throughout the NT and tradition, are less than convincing. An example is the genealogy that switches from referencing father-son to priest-successor priest with multiple gaps. It makes a lot of sense that during the Babylonian time-frame, genealogies would be lost or broken. But faking it is less impressive.

I'll look into both of those.

Here's the thing that doesn't let me accept that in my logical mind when it comes to religion "shopping" so to speak. If it's possible to "choose" your religion than in a way you're acknowledging that there isn't a real truth. Because if you say there is a real truth then you risk "picking" the wrong religion. If there is no real truth, or an ultimate truth that all religions touch on in some ways, then it doesn't really matter what religion you pick anyway so why bother.

And no, I haven't visited any place because I don't feel that I would be doing so in a sense of honest earnestness at this point.

See, a Priest during my RCIA classes said it this way... He drew concentric circles on the board with a dot in the middle. He said that dot is where all religions are trying to be.. "One with God". He drew dots all around within the concentric circles and said that the organized religions were represented by those dots. He said each would like to believe that they are closest to the dot, but nobody really knows for sure which dot is closest to the truth but the only thing that really mattered was that the center point was the goal. This fit with the way I had always thought about organized religions so I was happy to hear him say that.

In "Embraced by the Light" by Betty Eadie, she suggests that different religions and denominations exist to meet different needs at different points in time.

There can be many roads to reach the end point and people need to take the road that works best for them. There is no one answer.

When it comes to "shopping" for religions, I tend to agree with you. I think there's a difference, though, between doing that and exploring different religions to find the one that resonates most with what you already believe (or don't believe).

In that sense, it can be remembered that some religions make allowance for other valid understandings of the truth, while others don't. So, for example, if Christianity's claim to present the "real truth" doesn't resonate with you, then you might be unlikely to feel at home there. But Hinduism, at least as I understand it, doesn't claim to be exclusive with regard to "real truth"; rather, it claims to be one way of understanding the truth.

Then there's always the Unitarian Univeralists, where it's more about the search for truth than knowing the truth.

In bold.

Isn't that the point of Faith?

Substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen.

(I'm just getting it started since this thread has turned into a liberal lovefest of Theology. Somebody has to take the dissenting opinion
on things)

Okay Theology is a broad topic and if you want to discuss theology then of course from a Theological POV, none of the Holy scrpts make any sense. The issue is though why if the finite mind trying to prove the infinite and saying " See I told you."

It's like with THEORY of evolution. Has enough circumstantial evidence, to be believable, but not enough evidence to prove.

Still looking for that missing link.

Okay, in my own personal words and in all seriousness, discussing Theology is boring. I can quote the back and forths of the doctrines of a religion and what not, but what defines your faith? Those who said they believe God and have a personal relationship outside the church, I ask you how? What God do you serve? Is it the God of the Bible, or the God of your own creation?

When you say Jesus, is it the Jesus of the Bible, of your fantasy of Jesus?

When you answer those questions, that's when it can get real interesting.

Those of you that are athiest, where does it come from.

Agnostics...pick a side...Okay I'm just kidding with you, but you get the point.

ITT let's talk faith.

And honestly, I've always supported this concept myself. Along with a healthy dose of "Good done in the name of 'evil' is still given to the good. Evil done in the name of Good (insert Deity here) is still evil." I thank Narnia for the early introduction of that concept.

I suppose a good way to put it is that I'm not sure there is a dot there at all now. And that although I see how different religions serve mankind; I don't know whether there's truly that greater purpose above and beyond it all, or whether what started as stories to explain good, evil, love, war, rain, death, birth and so on took on a life of their own.

I'm glad my "shopping" metaphor makes some sense. And perhaps it is simply that I'm in a transitional phase and I'll regain my equilibrium at some point with some sense of what I identify as the capital-T Truth.
Yes and no. Ultimately, yes it is about faith or Faith or what have you. But from within the Christian framework, God created us with these brains to think, logic and reason as well. If the only way to believe is to deny those attributes (and I acknowledge that it's not for everyone, plenty of people, myself included for a time, think critically about their faith yet keep it) then I'm stuck not believing. If the only way into 'Heaven' is for me to do that, well I probably didn't want to go anyway.

How is this liberal?
If the infinite and omnipotent is not understandable by our finite minds, why try? Particularly if it cannot even convince our finite minds that it exists?
Shitty science. Theory in science does not mean "Guess" it means accurate predictive descriptions about the world, ones backed up by repeated, consistent, empirical evidence. If you don't believe in evolution, I hope you don't get vaccines. Wouldn't want to support the idea that germs evolve! (Oh and the theory of gravity, don't believe in that either, you can fly!) Pretty silly, yes? That's because you can't brush it off as a *~*~THEORY~*~* when that is not what the word means.
The God of the Bible.. which God? The one who visits the sins of the father onto his great grandchildren? The one who slew the first born children, including innocents, of Egypt? The God who destroyed four cities because Lot couldn't find enough good people in them? The God who endorses slavery? The God who said, kill the Midianites and after you've captured the women and children, kill the male children and any woman who has slept with a man, and keep the rest for yourselves.*

Because if you're going to talk about the God of the Bible, you should be specific. And depending on how you understand and interpret the words written there, makes a lot of difference in how you worship him.
Same question, really. Which Jesus of the Bible. Which gospel? Whose story do you trust and how is it that you are assured that your reading is the correct one and someone else's is a fantasy? This is pure frodobaggins material. And however much you tried to turn this into "Faith" we swerve right back into Theology.

Why the assumption that atheism comes from somewhere yet religion does not? Also, I don't think you're really kidding. As much as I joked that I'm indecisive, I'm not. You can't force faith. I'm not thinking about flipping a coin tomorrow for believing in God or not. Agnostic means "without knowledge." There is no claim to Truth involved, nor wishy-washiness.

*I totally cherry-picked incidents intentionally. Partially by what I recalled off the top of my head, and partially because they're all pretty shitty things. There are apologist counters to all of them, but that's why "God of the Bible" is a poor way to describe your faith.

Interesting commentary so far. I'll go more into some of the theoretical stuff...

I'm in the agnostic bucket. I'm not one to tell you that your god/God doesn't exist, or that you're wrong for believing so. However, as hard as I have tried to associate with various religions ranging from Catholicism (my mom was pretty much raised by nuns) to wicca, as hard as I have tried to believe and communicate and feel, I just haven't. I haven't been able to cross the intellectual barrier into believing. I need proof.

There's a school of thought in the anthropological world that I would say I most closely align with- functionalism, or structural functionalism. Essentially the idea is that every aspect of society, including religion, is a way of dealing with, understanding, and acting on outside influences & events. A great example would be Rappaport's Pigs For the Ancestors. Essentially a tribe in New Guinea raised & enjoyed pigs- but they got to the point where they dwindled their supply too far. In order to put some structure around it, they made eating the pigs a religious taboo that could only be broken every 12(?) years during a massive ceremony & feast. After many years nobody remembered why eating the pigs was taboo outside of that time- it just was. Others have theorized similarly about the Hindu sacred cow. Think about the 10 commandments. They aren't that revolutionary, they're just common sense today- they address like adultury, theft, murder, lying, jealousy. Were they really spoken by God, or was this a form of social control & order to make life more civilized for all? Honestly, I see religion more as a coping mechanism. I know that sounds harsh, and it isn't meant to. It's something that has developed and evolved to meet the needs of society, to give higher purpose, to comfort and encourage as needed. It doesn't do that for me, and that's okay. I know it does a lot for many, many people.

I suppose I also see many religious texts as historical documents rather than the fact of life. Some of the books/stories could either be interpreted as allegories (meant to convey broader themes & messages) or facts (this really happened, exactly like this). What is often forgotten is that every single edition is an interpretation. Someone's interpretation, spin, lens, call it what you will, of the stories & ideals that have been passed down. Stories/books have been removed or changed, and the same passage has been interpreted differently in one century than another- or even by two churches in the same faith.

Some downsides to religion in my mind: just about every religion says that their God is the only true God. Well then, what about everyone else? Can't we agree to disagree? What if they all are the same God (let's be honest, there are a lot of fundamental similarities)? It drives me absolutely batty when someone thinks I am in need of saving, and so they preach, preach, preach... and when it doesn't work, I'm discarded like a piece of trash. Yes- this has happened on a couple of occassions. Doesn't seem very welcoming & encouraging, so why would I want to be a part of that? (and yes, I know not everyone is like that!). Also using religion as a crutch or excuse to say that you have no free will... like someone mentioned earlier, did God REALLY help you find your cell phone, or did you just rub the right brain cells together to either guess the right locations based on where you went or stumble luckily upon it? Not a fan. You do have free will. It is in your free will to believe in God- but don't just sit back and hope He will figure things out for you. You have to do some of the work too.

So... those are some of the reasons I am in Camp Agnostic. Note that I am not a religious scholar and have no intention to be, so debating individual passages & such won't really get me anywhere. I'm just throwing out some of the things that have led me on the path I'm on.

I agree with MysticCat here.

Seeking out a religion or set of beliefs that resonates with you is not "shopping". You shop for school supplies. You shop for shoes. You don't shop for a religion.

The religion in which I was raised hasn't sat well with me since my early teenage years. As soon as I was out from under my repressive father's roof, I began exploring what was out there and what was in my soul. After YEARS of research, experience, and soul-searching, I chose to become Jewish - and once I'd made that choice, it was another year and a half before I officially became Jewish. I lost friends and nearly lost my parents over that choice. Calling that "religion shopping" belittles my entire experience. It also belittles the experience of everyone who's ever searched his or her soul and chosen a faith - whether s/he converted to a different faith, chose not to be part of any organized religion, or ultimately chose to embrace his/her childhood faith.

aephi alum- I'm curious, did you select Judaism after you joined AEPhi, or before?

ETA: I know quite a few people who were raised in some form of Christianity and moved to Judaism anywhere from late teens to adulthood. They are some of the happiest religious people I know :)

I'll be clear in saying I'm speaking purely about my own experience. And in fact were I to go out and "shop" for a religion over the next few months and just pick something, I'd think that would be more insulting to your experiences in its way. However, my finding "shopping" repelling, when that is not at all what you did, shouldn't affect or insult you at all.

Having not, to this point, seen anything that resonates with me, particularly since I've never been a fan of the concept of Truth, how could I do anything but 'shop.' Hence why I'm not, as 33girl suggested, heading off to 'experience' anything. It wouldn't be honest.

We do pretty well locally, we're rural so it is different than your situation, but a lot of the people in the congregation like the ELCA use of the money and our involvement in global issues and giving to LWF. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of ELCA benefits so I'd not be in favor of leaving the ELCA. What was told to me, and I'm sure I could look it up, is that the amount of people opposed to/taking issue with ordination of same sex partnered pastors was the same percentage as when the ordination of women came up. If we survived that, I think we can survive this.

Shopping for a congregation happens too, I know I've done it. When I first went away to college I chose the less monied more out of the way church because they used the green book and didn't have guitar church camp sing-a-longs. I'm not interested or comfortable with what the downtown church offered, so I went to the one on the outskirts of town, which amusingly enough was the Scandinavian congregation. I don't think it is wrong for you to chose a church based on the pastor, since you're not against her ordination, just like I couldn't handle amps on the altar and clapping and singing with a tambourine. Don't feel like an a-hole because you want to find a place where you fit in and feel comfortable worshiping and sharing faith.

I so hear you on the pomp thing, I like my service less contemporary, and more singing older songs, reflecting in silence, and keeping it under an hour and a half. I need vestments and paraments so I know where I am in the Church year and I like the ritual of it all, including the standing, sitting, and kneeling. If it wasn't for vestments I'd have no idea if it was a Presbyterian or Lutheran week at the church in Delta, so I'd peep Pastor Bear's ensemble and grab the right books if I was late.

See now this is how you get a conversation started. Challenge people's faith instead of their Theology and you get these reactions.

Oh also I was kidding.I respect agnostics being that agnosticism is the most misunderstood school of thought. People always assume agnostics are fence sitters

This coming from a personal experience.

The conversation started before you decided to troll it. :rolleyes:

Sure it did. It bored so good...I mean moved along so well. :D

Which was exactly the point of my earlier comment. :)

LOL.

For the record, some agnostics are fence sitters. As with any other "school of thought" (if you wish to call it that) there is diversity within that includes fence sitters and people who blow whichever way the wind blows.

And, I will be the first to admit that my faith and belief system has nothing to do with logic, thinking, or reason. It has to do with a feeling... a feeling that I've felt often enough, while focused on God in prayer and a feeling that is kind of indescribable but it's like a complete and total peace and warmth that fills me up, particularly during times of total despair or grief. I have chosen to interpret that as a higher power of some sort. I'm also unsure how I'd ever deal with the loss of loved ones without believing in the afterlife. For example, I need to believe that I will see my mom again in the afterlife. It's a coping strategy. If I'm wrong, well, it still will have served a purpose in getting me through years of missing her.

Neither had anything to do with the other. I'd be Jewish today whether I were an AEPhi or not.