APO/A-Phi-Q conflict
 

I know that most of the time APO chapter members stayed amongst themselves and A-Phi-Q chapter members do the same but what happens if a APO member finds himself/herself at a A-Phi-Q chapter or vice versa? Is it possible to co-exist in a chapter or will it cause alot of conflict? Has anybody dealt with this situation?

Are YOU dealing with this situation?

Oh my, it's the...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_u9Ttw5w6s

as we've heard before.

OMG, isn't it the same organization?

DrPhil,

Yes, but with somewhat different cultures. Alpha Phi Omega, Gamma Sigma Sigma, Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma are all non-social and founded at HWI, but their chapters at HBCUs have taken on some characteristics of the NPHCs such as stepping, refering to pledge class as a line (and normally sorting by height like the NPHCs), etc.

88Lover,

From your previous posts, I believe that you initiated at Theta Upsilon at Case Western Reserve, definitely an HWI. So if the question is about an actual situation, rather than a somewhat touchy conversation piece, I'll give the following advice which would be appropriate in any transfer.

I'd advise talking to the membership VP/pledgemaster at the new chapter about the experiences at the old. The chapter has to sign off on a transfer of membership, at some chapters it is perfunctory, at others somewhat more intensive. You won't be asked to go through pledging again, though making a point to attend if there are pledge class meetings devoted to chapter history and traditions is probably a good idea.

I personally would avoid rush events the first semester after transfer, or at least tone it down, as a brother, the rushees will expect you to have information on how the chapter does things that you probably don't.

Now some of this advice would be vary and be more specific if I knew the specific chapters. (Just as an example, I would expect Howard U. <-> Georgetown U. would be less of an adjustment than Howard U. <-> George Washington U. even though both Georgetown and George Washington are HWI)

I'll be happy to be more specific in a PM.

I assume you mean Kappa Kappa Psi?

Oops. Will fix the above.

I was being sarcastically rhetorical. I know all about the organizations that Black folks have transformed at HBCUs.

Alpha Phi Omega is still Alpha Phi Omega regardless of whether members culturally identify as APO or A-Phi-Que. The belief that it is not the same organization is one reason why some white folks don't want Black folks to get a substantive hold on historically (and/or predominantly) white organizations.

Or for that matter APhiO (which is more common in some other places).

All chapters have different experiences. My sister, after hearing me talk about the chapter at my alma mater, was gung ho to join the one at the school she was going to. That chapter went through more alcohol in a weekend than mine did in a semester (Note, this was the 1980s, and the chapter is currently inactive)

One thing that has personally minimized the differences in culture between the Alpha Phi Omega chapters at the HWI and HBCUs is finding out more about Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines. The differences in the experiences at Johns Hopkins U. and Howard U. look like a lot less when compared to the experience at the University of Mindanao.

(Get back to me when *either* Kappa Mu at Hopkins or Zeta Phi at Howard run a service project providing Circumcisions for 6-12 year old boys. 1/2 :) )

where is the "like" button?

Maybe I'm mis-reading your statement so maybe you could expand upon this, but that strikes me as rather ignorant, especially when you read from those of the Viking belief who do hold A-Phi-Q to be different than APO/APhiO.

http://jbskeet.tripod.com/JesseThree.html

That isn't about "white folks who don't want black folks in charge", so please take your race card elsewhere as it is not accepted here.

:rolleyes:

First of all, I wish that white people wouldn't accuse black people of "playing the race card" just because race is mentioned. It is possible to have a conversation involving race without it being a race war.

Secondly, the only person I have ever heard saying A Phi Que is a separate organization IS Jesse Bridges. He is no more the leader of the Vikings than I am the leader of the Anti-Viking Brigade.

And as a matter of fact, the differences between the fraternal experiences of black people in APO and those who are not black very much do relate to DrPhil's point. Every time there is a meeting of the national alumni relations committee, there seems to be a stark divide between the black members of the committee and everyone else. I can't help but think, after I peel away the remaining layers, that race could be an issue. In fact, upon the inspection of the Program Director's reports about alumni relations, the level of cultural incompetence as it pertains to the issue of Vikings/A Phi Que is astonishing to the point of comedy.

That doesn't make the PD a racist, but I can definitely play "the race card" to uncover the level of ignorance and/or prejudice among national-level board members, which in-turn has made me think that yes, "some white folks don't want Black folks to get a substantive hold on historically (and/or predominantly) white organizations."

People still have websites on Tripod? Wooooow.

There are some white folks who feel uncomfortable when you don't call race something else and hide it in a unicorn's anal cavity. As naraht outlined, the racial make-up of the APO/A-Phi-Q distinction is no coincidence.

The fact of the matter is that I sometimes hold a negative opinion of how Black folks sometimes transform these organizations. We've had threads on that. There should be a compromise between the white folks who don't want Black folks to have a substantive hold; and the Black folks who transform these organizations into something almost unrecognizable (as far as some are concerned).

/lane swerve over

For that matter, there were (for way longer than there should have been IMO) all-male chapters at PWIs, espousing a culture that I as a member of a coed chapter would not have been comfy with or accepted by.

Then there are coed chapters, again at PWIs, who hold IFC offices they should not hold and/or use membership selection in a way more like an NPC or NIC group would.

So there is a racial factor, yes, but it's hardly the whole story.

I see what you mean. However, some of that would be in the gender and APO threads where members have discussed the debate over co-ed or nonco-ed chapters. That's very rooted in gender (and not a more objective organizational transformation concern) because even the female APO brothers who don't transform chapters into NPC replicas have caught flack.

;) "It's hardly the whole story" is a common response when people bring up race or gender. It was never presented as the "whole story."

I was actually initially just saying that I can understand why members (of all historically and predominantly white organizations, not just APO) don't want members at HBCUs to transform the organization. I happened to state the obvious which is that HBCU members are predominantly Black and APO brothers are predominantly white.

But, people will never get to even half of the story if it makes them feel safe to keep pretending as though the APO/A-Phi-Q thing is merely conveniently nested in HBCUs and some Black members at PWIs.

Raspberry Lemonade.
 

Many years ago, I heard Alpha Phi Omega referred to as Lemonade. The balance of Leadership, Friendship and Service at each chapter were compared to the Lemon Juice, Sugar and Water in each glass of Lemonade. This comparison was extended by referring to the chapters at the HBCUs as Raspberry Lemonade...

Having watched co-ed extension efforts at a number of HBCUs, there is no question in my mind, that an extension effort at an HBCU designed to make them a copy of a chapter at the State's 1862 Land Grant school will almost certainly not work. This is even presuming that the school has never had an Alpha Phi Omega chapter and there there is no interaction with anyone who has ever pledged at a chapter at an HBCU. They *will* be expected by the other Greek Letter Organizations on campus (and probably administration) to have a plot, to order their pledges by height and to Step. They might even come up with the idea of referring to themselves as A Phi Que due to Omega Psi Phi being referred to as the Ques without anyone letting them know that this is done elsewhere. (This wouldn't occur to them at a school without Omega Psi Phi).

Yes, there were chapters at PWIs that were all-male, *but* as far as I can tell, some significant percentage of the chapters at PWIs that voted against going co-ed in 1976 did so later. As far as I can tell in the 32 years that chapters were *allowed* to go coed, *NO* functioning all-male chapter at an HBCU has decided to take on a co-ed pledge line (class). I'm still waiting for a specific example of this in the last couple of years since going co-ed was really pushed. (FA&MU?)

I've never heard of any concern about Alpha Phi Omega chapters starting to operate like an NPC (Hist White) sorority. The NPC chapters wouldn't want us counted in with them and unless the greek system is incredibly weak, they wouldn't consider including us in their rush concept. Just because a chapter starts blackballing doesn't mean that they are emulating the NPC. I'd also be interested in any chapter with a set upper limit on the number of pledges that they will take that isn't done with the idea of keeping the pledges from overwhelming a small chapter (If a chapter of 8 wants no more than 12 pledges, I can understand that)

Also, let's make it clear that there are chapters and members of chapters which refer to themselves as A Phi Que that are in perfect agreement with the National Fraternity on policy on membership and gender. Their activities in various areas (pledging, fellowship, competition, etc) may be those that the chapter at University of Alaska - Southeast would never consider doing (and would be stupid to do), but that doesn't mean they aren't doing just fine.

On the other hand, as far as I can tell, both Viking *and* Rising Sun as any part of a self description at the individual or a group *do* indicate a discontent with at least the current policy of forcing chapters to go co-ed and almost certainly discontent with the decision of the Fraternity to admit women in the first place. *NO* alumni association referring to itself with either of those terms will *ever* admit a woman. The Fraternity as a whole has never placed any rules on who a geographical alumni association must accept as members and until that is done, the fraternity is accepting de facto all-male alumni associations (Men of the Rising Sun - (city name)), even beyond those which exist for inactive chapters which have never admitted women. (For example Mu Gamma - Morgan State U).

As for websites on Tripod, I have no idea the last time that Jesse updated it...

Let me know if there is any issue on the thread I haven't covered...

Gamma Gamma just limited its pledge class to 50 this semester because the chapter is getting too large. They apparently have around 200 actives right now. I don't live in the Bay Area and haven't visited, so I can't confirm that number, but I got that number from an advisor I trust. Word on the street is that the idea was discussed at the Membership Academy in San Jose, and several chapters in Region X are proposing similar limits.

There was a thread on here (I'm pretty sure you posted in it) about an APO chapter being part of the school's IFC, and a member being elected IFC president. This makes no sense as IFC deals with rushing and such and APO shouldn't be rushing in the same way as an IFC is.

I have never heard of an APO chapter running like an NPC. That's not really what I was referring to. A service sorority chapter here and there, though, yes - although I think the more stringent insistences on having proper insurance are wiping this out.

Interesting. I *think* a preset limit would be acceptable with the National Pledging Standards.

I seem to remember the thread as well. Due to Sorority Rush being *significantly* more organized and regimented then Fraternity Rush, I expect a school's IFC to spend less time percentagewise on rush than a schools NPC.

Yeah, I actually see Alpha Phi Omega's refusal to be on FIPG as being a more significant argument for keeping us *out* of the NIC/NPC/Greek Council than the fact that Alpha Phi Omega brothers can also be in other members of the Council.

I don't think I've said recently how much I love Gamma Gamma.

I love Gamma Gamma.

I personally am not dealing with the situation. It's more a few chapter Brothers feeling uncomfortable with the situation and it was brought up to everybody's attention.

It's actually a situation involving a Grand Little (my little's little) and her friend who is also a chapter Brother. Neither of them have transferred but there have been a few incidents where they have told me about APO/A-Phi-Q conflict and a few of those members have transferred to the school. I no longer attend the school.

Maybe you should let these chapters do their own thing, who are they bothering? Let each man rep his own fraternity as he see's fit. cough cough excuse me, men and women.

Make no mistake however, nationals putting their foot down makes separatist organizations like mine that much more meaningful

"The man doth protest too much, methinks."

Pi Chi
All-Male Since 1966

see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmGW8nflIQ