Israeli soldier post pics of herself and Palestinian prisoners on where? FACEBOOK
 

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets...08/abergil.jpg


JERUSALEM – A former Israeli soldier posted photos on Facebook of herself in uniform smiling beside bound and blindfolded Palestinian prisoners, drawing sharp criticism Monday from the Israeli military and Palestinian officials.

Israeli news websites and blogs showed two photographs of the woman. In one, she is sitting legs crossed beside a blindfolded Palestinian man who is slumped against a concrete barrier. His face is turned downwards, while she leans toward him with her face upturned. Another shows her smiling at the camera with three Palestinian men with bound hands and blindfolds behind her.

The incident was a reminder of the fraught relations between Israeli soldiers and the West Bank Palestinians under their control.

Israeli soldiers have run into trouble on the social media sites like Facebook and YouTube before. Most recently a group of combat soldiers were reprimanded for breaking into choreographed dance moves while on patrol in the West Bank town of Hebron. The dance featured prominently on YouTube.

Palestinian Authority spokesman Ghassan Khatib condemned the photos and said they pointed to a deeper malaise — how Israel's 43-year-old occupation of Palestinians has affected the Israelis who enforce it.

"This shows the mentality of the occupier," Khatib said, "to be proud of humiliating Palestinians. The occupation is unjust, immoral and, as these pictures show, corrupting."

The Israeli military also criticized the young woman, who Israeli news media and bloggers identified from her Facebook page as Eden Aberjil of the southern Israeli port town of Ashdod. No official confirmed her identity.


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I really don't want to get into the Israeli-Palestinian debate. But soldiers do stupid shit. This was stupid shit. She should be punished for stupid shit.

Dumb bitch.

On another note, she looks like a couple of women I know who are not Middle Eastern.

Really? Facebook?

She can't be court-martialed as she has already served her time and been discharged. AFAIK, the Israeli military can't change the status of a discharge ie honorable to "other-than" or "dis"

Yes. Really...hehe

facebook is da debul.

This is going to get Photoshopped and captioned SO many times.

my sentiments exactly.

she looks Latina to me. esp with those sharpie looking eyebrows. lol.

I'm still stuck on the fact that Israel allows women to be soldiers at all. I didn't think they were that (relatively) progressive.

I believe both men and women serve at 18 (they're drafted, unless they get an exemption). IIRC men serve 3 years and women 2.

Women actually served on the battle lines back in the 40s, when there was a shortage of soldiers during a war. For a few decades, most of the jobs were largely administrative/support jobs like secretaries, nurses, etc., but since the 1990s, women have been actively serving as soldiers and now in roles of authority. They do have shorter time commitments, and more paths to retirement, but formerly active-duty members are required to serve in a reserve-type role once a year for a period of time.

(My sister used to do aerobics taught by a former female Israeli solider. It was the hardest workouts she ever did.)

My impression from several friends who lived in Israel is that it's a very progressive country. I've never been, so I can't say first hand.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm so mad that I agree with you. lol

My impression is progressive in some ways, but oppressive in others (and to others.)

Mostly having women serve is about necessity not about equality. Women serve less mandatory time then men.

However should we ever return to the draft, I think men and women should both be drafted. Me included should I meet the other requirements.

I know a young woman who served in the Israeli army. She was telling me of how many young people really didn't want to serve but it's mandatory. She didn't want to serve but of course did her time but got out due to a knee injury (I don't know how). She is now studying in the U.S. for her degree, I think architecture. I do remember seeing a documentary some time ago about the Israeli youth and having to join the service. If I remember it or find it, I'll post it.

Yeah I think it is more about the whole needing as much warm bodies as possible rather then about equality. Israel is in a bad place militarily, and they need as many people as possible to make sure they don't get overwhelmed.

hee :D

Not sure whether you mean their military is in a bad way, or whether you mean the country is just in a very vulnerable place. Israel has a pretty bad-ass military - one you don't really want to mess with. They just happen to be a very small country sitting in the middle of a land mass where everyone surrounding them hates them.

The latter. They have a very powerful and advanced military. Unfortunately they are in a part of the world that hates them and are in a more or less constant state of war. And no matter how highly trained your forces are, or how advanced your tech is, numbers do matter.

As far as Israel being progressive goes: I think some people think Israel is like the rest of the Middle East but it really isn't at all. Jerusalem, maybe, but Tel Aviv is more like NYC with clubs, bars, restaurants, beautiful people... etc.

i just watched that video. i think it's funny. it looks like spring sing, but with guns.

the British Royal Dragoon Guards put way more work into their choreography though.

I won't disagree that it was stupid on her part. However, I have to question why we hold Israel to a much higher standard than the Muslim world, or anyone else for that matter.

Remember, the Iraqis celebrated by hanging the multilated, burned corpses of Americans off a bridge in Fallujah and the world didn't even flinch! This female IDF solider smiles with "live" blindfolded soliders and you never hear the end of it.

Women in the IDF serve side-by-side with their male counterparts, particularly in combat and border troops. My nephew served with the Oketz Unit (dog unit) and we later learned his unit was one of the first in Gaza with their bomb sniffing dogs.

And to the another poster who thought that Jerusalem isn't as progressive as Tel Aviv, it is, it's an international city where Jews, Christians and Arabs co-exist in contiguous neighborhoods. There are discos, restaurants etc, and it's like many other metro cities. People have this idea due to a small orthodox Jewish population that the entire city is like the Mea Sharim neighborhood, when it's not. Israel is more secular than it is religious.

Here's a fun video of Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ULtg...eature=related

I haven't been to the homeland yet:( Also, that video is the cutest thing ever! Love it!

They claim the moral high ground, we back them in part because of it, therefore they should live up to it. If they'd rather be compared with and treated like those Iraqis, then they can choose that route instead.

You should go if you get the chance, many people feel an incredible connection between the neshama and the land. You might like this video too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=iTXi...eature=related

"oy" is just "yo" backwards

lol

I disagree. They do not claim a moral high ground, we share the same values, namely; the value of a human life - these are Judeo-Christian values. Furthermore, the US supports Israel due to the economic and strategic asset Israel provides. Israel keeps US manufacturers like Grumman, Boeing etc, in business. That's what our aid does, it insures they buy American planes, helicopters and weapons, thereby, keeping Uncle Joe employed. US-Israel have numerous bi-lateral contracts and mutual interests, Google, the joint projects being developed. American technological companies, such as Motorola in Israel, and medical research being done with Americans notwithstanding.

I don't think Israelis will behave like extremist militants, anymore than the US will - that's not to say there won't be a few individuals who act alone. And that's what we unfortunately remember.

I love it, that makes me chuckle too! ;)

Those are Islamic values too, just for the record. And it's not just about the value of life, it's about respecting human beings. Even prisoners. Saying that this soldier should not be criticized, or that people should lay off because well at least she's not cheering for dead Americans is a false comparison. Israel most certainly claims to be in the right, and they claim to be "better" than their enemies. That means acting like it.

And some Christian conservatives only support Israel because they want them to rebuild the Temple so Jesus can come again. If that's all our money's going towards, why don't we just buy planes straight from Boeing. (And no, those companies wouldn't all go out of business without Israel.)

You're not saying anything that people don't know. No one's saying to draw and quarter this soldier, just that it was wrong and she should be (or should have been) punished appropriately.

And if the Israelis and Americans alike remembered that extremist militants did not represent the greater whole.. well we'd be doing a hell of a lot better.

Dear lord why did you screw with the font.
Wow. Way to build that strawman and knock it right down.
In this paragraph you have assumed that a)someone might consider those videos respectful, b) it's natural to compare that to this situation, c) that I've never viewed those videos and d) that if I did see those videos, I'd agree with you. Sorry. You're wrong on all 4 counts.

Good we're on the same page here.
Suicide bombings - specifically prohibited by Islam, politically motivated with religion mostly serving as the rallying cry.
Human Shields - Military/political tactic - used by non-Muslims
Stoning/Honor Killings - Something that is in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures too (and was done, frequently), currently in place and enforced more by cultural forces than purely religious ones. That is, not ever Muslim country or family would even consider the idea, but residents of and immigrants from certain countries see it as normal. It was happening there before Islam got there.
"Mother's strapping bombs on their babies" - this isn't a few radicals? Really?

You're looking at things that represent extremists and then claiming that they're not extreme. Islam isn't why people are bombing buses in Israel. Those people see it as their only method of fighting since they don't have armies. They're wrong to say the very least but that's what's in their head. Individuals might be religiously motivated but that doesn't make them representatives of Islam any more than abortion doctor killers are representative of Christianity.

Some.. So SOME radicals
Out of over 1 billion Muslims, you don't think that this is a small percentage?
And just like a literal interpretation of the Bible is ineffective and would allow you to own slaves, forbid you from wearing mixed fabrics, stone women for adultery if she was raped in a city and didn't cry out loud enough (but not in the country where they couldn't hear her), and tell you the Earth was only several thousand years old, a literal interpretation of the Koran is not particularly a valid one.

Wahhabism is fairly extreme as far as beliefs go, and one that persecutes women, for example. However, Saudi Arabia doesn't have some of the strife of other countries because of the wealth and culture of the country itself- they will always have religious "tourism" money even if the oil runs out - not because of its brand of Islam.

Bin Ladin is actually pissed off at the Saudis for allowing Americans in. There's a reason he's not living there despite that being his country of origin. So you think that if the Saudi government specifically condemned his "message" we'd capture him tomorrow?

Evil people use religion, like they use any belief system, to justify their acts and to try to get others to follow them. Sometimes those evil people are crazy and sometimes they're intentionally manipulative. There is a huge history of Christian aggression based on then killing the pagans/infidels/heathens/etc. There is biblical documentation of the Hebrews killing tribes and cities of people because God told them to.

People kill "in the name" of a lot of things.

And find an unbiased source for a video next time if you want me to watch it.

Right, if we're following my point that some Christians only support Israel so they can make Jesus come again, they wouldn't want to kill the Jews, they just want the Jews to kill the Muslims and rebuild the Temple so big JC will come back and send the Jews to hell for not being Christians.

Also, you don't think there are Palestinian Christians who have said that? Or are you conflating Arabs and Muslims again? Perhaps other Christians haven't said that in Israel because they aren't the ones being killed in return.

(Also, pretty much every "the Jews run Hollywood/Washington/the world" anti-Semitic rambling from the US has been said by a Christian IME)


Bad logic. If my tax money bought those 300 planes over there, we could easily buy them over here instead.

Assuming that those companies would go out of business because we stopped giving Israel aid is some leap. Your claim was that we're giving Israel money and they're just spending it on American things. That's not a good reason to keep giving it to them. There probably are good reasons to give it to them, but you provided a very bad one.

I'm not surprised at all, I just don't care. Why wouldn't we buy arms from someone else if they made good ones?


The "crazies" will twist whatever you do into supporting their worldview. So you do the right thing no matter what (build Park51 in NYC, treat all prisoners with respect, treat all humans with respect, and so on) and then you haven't let terrorism compromise your values. Which means you win.

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Dear lord why did you screw with the font.

I like a larger font so I don't have to sit on top of my laptop just to see... I break so many that way. lol

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In this paragraph you have assumed that a)someone might consider those videos respectful, b) it's natural to compare that to this situation, c) that I've never viewed those videos and d) that if I did see those videos, I'd agree with you. Sorry. You're wrong on all 4 counts.

I was responding to a comment you made earlier; essentially, respect should be given to all prisoners. And in a perfect world that would happen – however, we don’t live in a perfect world. We could give Islamic prisoners the key to Emerald City, and the outcome won’t change - militant beheadings shall continue as justifiable. Islamic militants need rehab and education, not candy and flowers.

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Suicide bombings - specifically prohibited by Islam, politically motivated with religion mostly serving as the rallying cry.

Specifically prohibited by Islam, care to cite your source?

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Human Shields - Military/political tactic - used by non-Muslims

Red herring. Specifically used by muslims in Gaza knowing the IDF wouldn’t shoot at children.

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Stoning/Honor Killings - Something that is in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures too (and was done, frequently), currently in place and enforced more by cultural forces than purely religious ones. That is, not ever Muslim country or family would even consider the idea, but residents of and immigrants from certain countries see it as normal. It was happening there before Islam got there.

Yes and this archaic practice is still ONLY in use by those in Muslim countries or where Muslims are practicing Shaira Law - like the US and UK. Google honor killings.

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"Mother's strapping bombs on their babies" - this isn't a few radicals? Really?

One mother is more than enough and imo, has no business having children. It’s child abuse. In this country that woman would lose her children and most likely prosecuted for child endangerment.

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Those people see it as their only method of fighting since they don't have armies.

They "don't have" armies?!? Did I read that correctly? Regardless, of what you think of their armies - they have armies. You should really take a trip... I bet you think that Palestinians are living in tents, with nothing; not even running water, right?

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Individuals might be religiously motivated but that doesn't make them representatives of Islam any more than abortion doctor killers are representative of Christianity.

More red herrings. One lone nut job vs. nut jobs from the fastest growing religion in the US (and worldwide) – exponentially increases the number of nut jobs. Period.

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Some.. So SOME radicals Out of over 1 billion Muslims, you don't think that this is a small percentage?

Not when their respective governments embrace the doctrine, i.e., Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, now you have an entire country of wahhabism acceptance/adherence. No religious freedom there.

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And just like a literal interpretation of the Bible is ineffective and would allow you to own slaves, forbid you from wearing mixed fabrics, stone women for adultery if she was raped in a city and didn't cry out loud enough (but not in the country where they couldn't hear her), and tell you the Earth was only several thousand years old, a literal interpretation of the Koran is not particularly a valid one.

Once again, you fail to acknowledge that the bible doesn't make the laws of this country. Most acknowledge it as a moral code written two-thousand years ago. You certainly wouldn't walk into family court in this country argue one party committed adultry, file a motion for contempt and hope the court orders they be stoned to death. The difference being is that Islamic law is a comprehensive system covering the relationship with allah, family, money, society and country - given and governed by allah.

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Wahhabism is fairly extreme as far as beliefs go, and one that persecutes women, for example. However, Saudi Arabia doesn't have some of the strife of other countries because of the wealth and culture of the country itself- they will always have religious "tourism" money even if the oil runs out - not because of its brand of Islam.

You’re kidding right? It’s evident to me you know nothing of Sharia Law and the oppressive nature of wahhabi – Saudi women cannot vote, be educated like their male counterparts, they can’t drive, they have to have a familial/guardian male with them at all times, they’ve covered from head to toe in njib and female children are married off. Women cannot chose who they'll marry. Saudi Arabia is globally ranked as 130th out of 136th counties in terms of human rights violations. If you don’t see that as strife against women – I don’t think we can continue this conversation. Please read on. http://www.islamfortoday.com/ummzaid06.htm

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Bin Ladin is actually pissed off at the Saudis for allowing Americans in. There's a reason he's not living there despite that being his country of origin. So you think that if the Saudi government specifically condemned his "message" we'd capture him tomorrow?

Is that what you understood from my post?

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Evil people use religion, like they use any belief system, to justify their acts and to try to get others to follow them.

Ah, so you feel Islam is evil.

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And find an unbiased source for a video next time if you want me to watch it.

LOL! It was a video made by an Arab Christian!

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Right, if we're following my point that some Christians only support Israel so they can make Jesus come again, they wouldn't want to kill the Jews, they just want the Jews to kill the Muslims and rebuild the Temple so big JC will come back and send the Jews to hell for not being Christians.

I’m not buying that nonsense.

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Also, you don't think there are Palestinian Christians who have said that? Or are you conflating Arabs and Muslims again? Perhaps other Christians haven't said that in Israel because they aren't the ones being killed in return.

I conflated no such thing. There are Mizrahim (Jews kicked out of Arab countries), Christian Arabs etc –

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(Also, pretty much every "the Jews run Hollywood/Washington/the world" anti-Semitic rambling from the US has been said by a Christian IME)

Yes, I generally glean that kind of information from “Stormfront” …

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Bad logic. If my tax money bought those 300 planes over there, we could easily buy them over here instead.

LOL! Yes, because your contribution has such military strategic value… Just how large is your yard and where exactly is it. ;)

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Assuming that those companies would go out of business because we stopped giving Israel aid is some leap. Your claim was that we're giving Israel money and they're just spending it on American things.

I’m sorry that’s how you interpreted my comments and that you’re not familiar with foreign aid in the ME – most clamor about how their tax dollars are given just to Israel, when they know nothing about the strings attached and the quid pro quo of these agreements and the congressional approval of said deals. Egypt has no strings attached, theirs is strictly economic aid. But I did hear that the US will start selling Egypt and the Saudis military weaponry, planes etc. It’s nice to know we still make something…

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The "crazies" will twist whatever you do into supporting their worldview. So you do the right thing no matter what (build Park51 in NYC, treat all prisoners with respect, treat all humans with respect, and so on) and then you haven't let terrorism compromise your values.

Park51 is entirely separate argument – one I don’t oppose due to the first amendment argument. But I’d hate to see some other nutjob blow that thing up and harm innocent NY’ers again, in the process.

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Which means you win

I'm somewhat amused by this remark. There's a certain idealistic naiviete to it. So you both maintain you both have won? ;)

Drole....I love you. You know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, this Choconut lost the ability to apply logic to his arguments years ago, that's why he is able to believe this drivel!

Learn to hit Ctrl+mouse scroll instead of the horror of font tags you use all over the place.
It means that you can't justify Israel (or the US or anyone) treating prisoners badly because other people are worse. If we're the "good guys" it is incumbent on us to follow the rules. The less we follow the rules the more justification "they" have not to. And even when they don't follow the rules, we do it because it is right.
Source
Source
Source
Go ahead and read those, I'll be waiting.
Right. It's a military thing, not a religious practice.

So, those honor killings in India where women and men are killed for marrying outside of their caste are not actually happening?

Honor killings are against the law even in countries where they occur. It is not an issue of everything being hunky dory with the government it's a cultural issue involving local control and coverup of these crimes.

Punishments like this go back to the code of Hammurabi.

However, the important point for this discussion is that it is part of the culture of those countries, not part of Islam. Indonesia does not have a similar problem for example.

No shit sherlock. I'm not saying it's fun times, I'm saying it's neither common nor religious.
So, the Palestinians are on equal footing with the Israelis militarily? Yeah. Right.
These are only "red herrings" in the sense that you brought the subject up and cannot defend it. Suicide bombers are no more representatives of Islam than the IRA are representatives of Catholicism.
You're conflating two points here.
One is that not all Muslims, even those living in places like Saudi Arabia, follow the literalist interpretation of the Koran.
Two is that said literalist interpretation is very flawed for the same reasons literal interpretations of other religious texts are flawed. Particularly when the texts are twisted for political purposes.

You are treating Islamic law as a solid universal block that has no differing perspectives. This is no more true than the idea that there are just Christians and they all agree on everything. We've had countries run entirely on "Christian" rules in the past, and our own country still carries plenty of those biases with us today.


I rather specifically said that it was persecuting women. I'm quite aware of what SA is like. I'm also aware that this is not the only form of Sharia and that Sharia varies wildly based on who's administering it. Again you're treating 1 billion people as if they all think like one person.
You said:
"And while the Saudi Government condemned bin Laden, they never condemned his message - until that happens, expect the brutality to continue unabated."
So yes, I interpreted that to mean you think that if the Saudis condemn his message we'd see an end to "brutality" or something similar.


No, I'm starting to think you're a moron, though.
And titled "Innocent Hamas & Evil Israel - Liberalism at Work"
Yeah, you're right it's totally neutral!


Me neither, but some do.


When you say "Muslim/Arab" it sure sounds like you do.

So stop assuming it's an Islamic thing.
I'm rather obviously referring to American money in general.

I really don't bitch about my money going to Israel as a rule. We send a lot of foreign aid to a lot of places. You raised the issue as a point in the discussion.

No shit. Really? How generous of you.
Why would that even come into your mind when discussing it?

Why do you care what the other side says? This shouldn't be some geographic pissing match (even though it is all too often.) And we've already acknowledged they're crazy, so your best bet is to convince the non-crazy people about how crazy the extremists are.

If you compromise your values for the terrorists, you lose. That's how it works. Their goal is to inspire terror, right? If you start clamoring about how you don't know if you can trust Muslims now, you only prove their point about the West wanting to destroy them.

We keep thinking that if we bomb (or shoot, or whatever) them we'll change their minds or something and we don't realize that for every civilian we kill, and we cannot help but kill some, we create enemies of their whole families, friends, neighbors.

*sigh* Idiocy on these issues is just frustrating. This isn't us versus them.

Ironic.

O so you've been talking to my parents?

Dood. Finding out about that aspect of the "Support Israel" lobby was an eye opener for me. I'm just like jaw dropped "REALLY? YOU REALLY THINK THAT?" about the whole thing.

This thread has become the new "how to get to heaven when you die" thread for me.

Popcorn fodder or "dear lord won't it die?"

Take a guess. ;)