Daughter had unhappy High School experience, should she not mention this during Rush?
 

So my daughter & I have been lurking around here and find all the posts, comments and stickies very informative. She will be an incoming freshman at a fairly competitive school (according to your lists) and we were discussing what to say/not to say during Rush. She didn't have the most ideallic High School experience, to say the least. She got great grades, 3.7u/w 4.0 weighted, NHS, CSF, 4 years community service club, 3 years volleyball and over 400 hours Hospital volunteer. She also worked last year and is working this year as a camp counselor at our country club. The problem is that she is very shy so she didn't do a lot of dating or going to parties, proms etc... Was never asked out on a date, even though she is very pretty, tall and thin. Came to find out that some guys thought she was a little stuck up, mistaking her shyness. So our discussion comes from this dilemma..If asked she wants to be honest about how miserable she thought High School was and I think she might come across as being a negative person. She says she doesn't want to "sugar coat" her experiences but that the reason she is going through Rush is to start over and meet new and exciting people who have more in common with her. Sorry, so long, just trying to word it so it comes out right. She has about 6 recs from very good alumni's out of the 16 houses. (Her University claims that recs are not necessary so she is not pursuing anymore). The question I guess we are asking, is how honest should she be if the subject of High School comes up? What would be a tactful yet truthful way to answer any questions regarding her experiences?

I'll let the ladies answer the rest, but if the school is listed on here as competitive, she NEEDS recs, regardless of what the school might say.

Personally, if asked, I would take her negative experience and try to spin it in a positive light! Something like, "I felt as if I didn't take enough risks with expanding beyond my social circle in high school, but over the summer I have tried to connect more with other incoming freshmen and come out of my shell. I am really excited for the opportunity to meet and learn from other amazing women in my future sorority."

In any situation in life, you always make a better impression when your comments are positive rather than negative. Her message ought to be that she is excited to start fresh and meet new people who have lots in common with her. No other back story is necessary until she becomes good friends with someone. Projecting that message will serve her well no matter who she's meeting at school (dorm mates, professors, employers).

I rushed as a sophomore, but I don't remember high school social status coming up in conversation. Activities and interests, but I was never asked (nor did I as a rusher ask) how the PNM liked high school.


Co-sign on the recs - the University is required to tell you that they are not mandatory...even when they are. If she's read GC like you say she has, she should know that. It comes up in about every other rush thread.

Her school is under the list "Up for Debate" on recs. It is one of the Pac10 schools with a great recruitment website. It states that recs are welcomed but not required. We know a lot of greek alumni, and she is even a legacy but aside from the 6 she already has, they would all be duplicates!!! She doesn't want to go through recruitment bombarding these same sororities with too many recs for the same house!! We are out of state so when I called to get info on other specifics, I asked about the recs and they said that they really are not a big deal at this school so not to worry about having one for every house. I do thank you for the advice on putting her experience in a positive light. That is exactly what I was trying to tell her but she kept saying she doesn't want to lie about her feelings. I told her it was the same as if she were going through a job interview, even if she absolutely hated her prior workplace, she wouldn't exactly tell that to her possible new employer. I guess its all about growing up and learning how to play the game of life but she looks at it like being phony!! Hard to argue with a 17 year old!

Again:

ETA: Don't mean to come off sassy, just stressing the importance of understanding this.

Tell her it's not lying, it's called being tactful. Big difference. :D (Though I know it's hard to tell a 17yo that, especially when you're her parent.)

I think even having two, and possibly three, recs for a chapter isn't necessarily a bad thing. But when chapters are getting 7,8,9 recs on one girl then it seems overkill (at some schools anyway). Think of having two people lined up to write a rec for a chapter as insurance - if one doesn't get it sent off then you still have the other as a backup.

Although I'm a fraternity member so technically this is a lane swerve, the larger theme behind this thread is essentially "first impressions" which we are all familiar with. I wouldn't talk about a bad high school experience. I think that the question is unlikely to come up in the first place, and I definitely wouldn't bring it into the question.

First impressions should be about positivity. I'm not saying she should lie, but I think stating that you had a bad time in high school a) would sound negative and b) might invite the thought that: "Oh, this PNM was shy and boring in high school by her own admission, and that means she's going to be shy and boring in Delta Delta Fabulous. On to the next one." Obviously that's not what your daughter will be trying to say, but it could be interpreted as that. Back when I was in college (which wasn't that long ago), that's pretty much how I would have interpreted a rushee saying that to me.

I'll reiterate what everyone else has says: The Greek Life office HAS to tell you that recs aren't necessary.
If you want to give your daughter a little more of an edge, especially because she is shy, you may want to reconsider and get more recs.

Now slight thread derail: If all the Panhellenics and Greek Life offices say "Recs aren't necessary", and then girls are released from recruitment from houses they don't have recs to - how many irate phone calls do those offices receive from angry moms?

I would agree that she should NOT speak negatively about her high school experience.

I think it's completely inappropriate to talk about negative/sad/disappointing/over-bearing/pushy/inappropriate/frustrating experiences and/or wants and needs when you first meet someone.

There was a guy who used to work at my company and the second he met someone he would start talking about how his wife is battling cancer. Not necessary at this stage in the game. I would always listen over my cubicle to these conversations (it was kind of hard not to!) and I could just tell how uncomfortable the other person was.

When you start to get to know someone, the conversation should be light and fun. Compare it to a first date. Would you start talking about your ex, and how awful he was to you? How you didn't get along, and how miserable you were? Would you talk about how much you really want to get married, and how many children you want to have someday? Would you talk about your crazy uncle, and how he almost shot your dog one day because he was so drunk?

I sure hope not.

We all have personal baggage, but you don't want to dump it on someone the first time you meet them (or the second.. or third... or tenth time, in some cases).

FWIW, it has been my experience that conversations in rush often focus on things like HS activities and goals in college (e.g. "I'm planning on majoring in ____ or participating in ____") instead of whether someone's HS experience was "miserable." And she (ideally) shouldn't really have to address questions about whether she went on a lot of dates or was asked to a lot of dances; most sorority women know to stay away from the topic of boys during rush.

That said, if she is asked about her high school experience, I would agree with others who said to emphasize the positive aspects and focus on how excited she is for college. I don't think there's much value to be added by being negative.

And...I agree with what others have said about recs.

Sorority members aren't supposed to bring up the three B's: boys, booze, and Bible. I doubt that dating and partying are even going to come up. Honestly, I can't remember a single recruitment conversation that focused on a past experience. It's more about finding a connection in this new chapter of your life. Of course, she can bring in stories from the activities she enjoyed and her volunteer work, but I say don't stress about it! Just look forward to what the next four years will bring!

If this is such an important issue for you and you have both been lurking here, I don't get why it's mommy asking the question here. I think you should let her be herself and do what she wants in recruitment. That's the only way she's going to end up in the right house for her. If she's painfully shy, she's going to have a tough time in a chapter full if extroverts.

She should probably not mention it. However, I think that if she's seeing greek life as the solution to her problems, she may have a problem. Greek life can do a lot of things for its members, but it cannot fundamentally change a person's personality.

Keep getting recs and good luck to her.

She has a whole summer (or, well, a month & 1/2 anyway) to NOT BE HER HIGH SCHOOL SELF ANYMORE. I still remember an old ad in a magazine from the summer before I went to college that said "today you get a fresh slate. Make the most of it."

From the sound of it, she's not going to a college with a lot of her old HS classmates so no one's going to know if she was the most popular person or the geekiest. Believe me, as far as who she dated etc, sorority members are going to look at that as...well, high school.

She (and you) need to stop seeing her as a "shy person." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There's no way to know WHY they were released. And if the number of students w/o recs ever actually hit a majority, then the chapters would end up adjusting their invite lists accordingly.

Personally, I doubt high school will come up. But if it does, there's a way to change the subject and sound positive without lying...like "I feel like I learned a lot from high school and I'm hoping to learn even more in college!" I had a horrible high school experience socially but I never remember it coming up...even as a freshman new member, honestly. High school is over for her now, remember that.

Also, remember a sorority isn't going to make her outgoing. She has to make herself outgoing. If she joins a chapter it will certainly be helpful to have an automatic group of friends and social activities, but she's going to have to leave her comfort zone. I sympathize because I was the same way, but she needs to start getting the right perspective NOW...my mom always told me to be nice, polite, and friendly to everyone and if they don't respond in kind, that's their problem. It's cliche, but it's so true.

Never bring-up anything negative about yourself during recruitment.
Shy is not a bad thing, but if your daughter wants to stand-out, she will need to at least good at making conversation. Sorority girls wont remember a girl just because she's pretty, we remember girls because we had a great conversation with them. Practice small talk, a lot.
And your daughter seems to have been very involved in high school. Volunteer work, activities/sports, and still making good grades is something to bring-up.
I didn't date a lot and I really did not "party" in high school. But that didn't stop me from getting a bid to a wonderful organization (that was considered a "top" sorority at my school when I went through recruitment).
Good luck to your daughter!

We both have read through the threads but "MOMMY" is asking the question because we got in an argument about it before she left for her camp job and I thought if I posted my question, I would have enough replies reiterating what I had stated to her and be able to show it to her when she gets home ! I'm not telling her to be anything but herself, but then again 17 year olds sometimes think they know it all and will take advice from people other than their parents, so these responses are much appreciated ;-) And as far as recs, I'll tell her to go ahead and accept them from the people who have offered. Also, I wouldn't say she was "painfully shy", just not as extroverted as others. When engaged, she is quite eloquent and charming. She just never felt comfortable with the hard partying, grind dancing kids in High School, who happen to be the "Popular kids" so she focused more on studies, community service etc..She is looking forward to surrounding herself with more mature goal orientated people in college. That is one of the reasons she is going though recruitment...If she finds it's not for her, she doesn't have to pledge! I've warned her how stressful it will be and probably pretty petty at times too but she said she is excited to go through and try to find a fit and if not, then on a campus with over 40,000 students she'll find her niche somewhere!

I doubt the sororities will care whether or not she was into grinding or partying in high school (in fact on some campuses girls who partied hard in high school can sometimes have a harder time during recruitment because it is assumed that they'll continue to be out of control in college and therefore be a constant attendee at standards meetings). Her resume sounds impressive and as long as she can suck it up and make small talk (and like I said I personally can sympathize with people who hate it because I REALLY do, but it's a great skill to learn for networking purposes in the "real world"). It would be a good idea for her to start practicing now, even if it's just with you. It sounds silly, and I fought my mom tooth and nail when she wanted me to do that, but I should've listened. I would've been much less nervous.

This is a complete hijack, but why do people refer to themselves as "MOM" or "MOMMY" in all caps like that?

Every time live-in's mom contacts me and mentions herself, or mentions herself in relation to him, she says stuff like "oh no not his MOM" or "His MOM can do it" or whatever.

I personally find it quite annoying as I don't refer to myself as "GIRLFRIEND" or "AGZG*" in text.

*Not real name.

I can't for the life of me understand why a meager high school social life would come up during your daughter's recruitment, unless she was already acquainted with the girls—in which case they would know she was shy.

If you only have a few minutes to make an impression on a stranger, why would she want to focus on the negative? Basic social skills.

Listen, I hated high school, was shy and awkward and was afraid of everything and everybody. I decided to push myself in college and therefore went out for recruitment.

And guess what - there are PLENTY of people who were the same way in high school. Yes, in the sororities! She may find a few sorority members who are into hard partying, but she will find just as many or more who are serious about school...but not all the time! That's the beauty of it - there's usually a range of experiences within one group. And young people change so much over that 4 years.

She will get only a few questions about high school, and most will be related to her activities, which don't have to be school activities. The good thing about recruitment is that she doesn't really have to do that much talking...but she should give more than "yes" or "no" answers. Talk about the things she enjoys or is interested in. She can make a mental list of questions to ask or topics to bring up if there's a lull. Even the sorority girls go blank while talking.

And get those recs!

Why can't she just be tactful and say something like, "I really enjoyed my extracurriculars and volunteering, which is a big reason why I want to get involved in a sorority" if they ask how she liked high school?

to agzg: I used all caps in "MOMMY" in answer to Barbies Rush. Didn't quite get the insinuation from her post so it was my reply to her. For a forum that's supposed to be helpful and informative, I don't understand why some members post answers that can be demeaning and insulting. Some of us are new to this site (personally found it from college confidential which I found very useful 2 years ago when my son was going off to college) If new members ask or say the wrong thing, I believe there are nicer ways of informing them. We all started off somewhere!! To those who have posted your advice, thank you very much... gonna show it to my daughter now :-)

A. I have no idea why you're so defensive towards me for a hijack. I thought it might be a "thing" which I obviously don't get. I answered your question, and politely to boot.

B. I don't understand why people automatically assume that the point of the forum is to be helpful and informative. Sure, we are helpful and informative much of the time, however, I did not check a box that said "I will never post anything snarky or turn off a new member to the forum or a potential new member and I will ALWAYS be helpful and informative" when I registered my username.

C. There's a huge stigma against helicopter mommies on this board, because we've been burned before by helicopter parents who just don't know when to STFU. Obviously, we'd rather deal with a PNM directly than with a parent.

Hmmm...let's see...a Pac 10 school, 40,000 students, 16 chapters - yes, you need recs. Ask the friends who are doing them for their own groups if they know someone in ABC, XYZ, etc. Am sure you can get them all.

Sorry agzg if you thought I was attacking you or anyone else who posted responses to this thread. Actually everyone's replies have been very helpful and honest. I was referring to other posts in other threads, and they are not just to the "helicopter moms" either. We have seen posts to PNMs that have been quite insulting, not saying that has happened on this thread however. Anyway... daughter has seen the post and replies (although not too happy that I posted a topic about her!) I promised that I wouldn't do it again without consulting her, just wanted to prove my point about what she might say negatively about high school and after reading this she agrees how to address that issue. One quick question... Was I wrong to assume that parents of PNM's couldn't post too? If this wasn't the case, then I apologize. From reading past threads, there seems to be posts from PNM's, Alumni, Parents etc..Please direct me to the correct forum for parent support.

Having been the daughter who needed pushing to see my mom's point of view (and yes, she's almost always right, I'll admit it now), I understand why you decided to post here. But try to get her to ask questions herself from now on, because it'll be good practice for recruitment. (And I do not mean this to sound like I'm preaching to a mom-I'm not one...but as it pertains to this situation, in the long run she'll be more at ease during recruitment and her new member period if she gets used to asking questions herself. She'll have a lot of them, everyone does!)

I think it's really sad that in this day and age, the measure of whether she had a good high school experience is about dating. I would say that with a good GPA, participation on a sports team, lots of community service and other club involvement, she had a pretty good high school experience. Dating and going to dances/proms and popularity with boys does not define a woman.

Also, could it be possible that bringing up high school dating, dances, etc. might be perceived as talking about "one of the Bs" (boys)? Lots of sorority women on GC counsel against getting into conversations that touch on boys and / or "partying," right?

Boys, booze, and Bible.

And Barack.

I think that might be mom's personal problem, not a problem of this "day and age" in general. Heck, it could be that daughter has had numerous - what shall I call them? - assignations - and mom just has no clue because they didn't come to the house, give her a corsage and bring her home at midnight.

The above is another reason that it's better for the kids to ask questions, rather than the parents. :)

To be fair, it could also be mom giving a few examples of why daughter didn't think high school was a great time rather than going into excrutiating detail.