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-   -   Cheerleading: Sport or Not? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=114902)

Ghostwriter 07-22-2010 09:30 AM
Cheerleading: Sport or Not?
 
Not so sure I agree with the Judge but then I think Title IX is silly anyway.

HARTFORD, Conn. -- Competitive cheerleading is not an official sport that [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]colleges[/COLOR][/COLOR] can use to meet gender-equity requirements, a federal judge ruled Wednesday in ordering a Connecticut school to keep its women's volleyball team.
Several volleyball players and their coach had sued Quinnipiac University after it announced in March, 2009 that it would eliminate the team for budgetary reasons and replace it with a competitive cheer squad.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/21...est=latestnews

Drolefille 07-22-2010 09:35 AM
Competition.

As is Golf. Baseball's iffy.

Pro-Title IX, but I'm a 'sport' snob.

jennyj87 07-22-2010 09:39 AM
I did HS cheerleading for three years before moving to competitive.

Go to one practice of a competitive team and there will not be a doubt if its a sport or not.

I just don't understand how people can say "oh yeah gymnastics a sport!" then not agree that cheerleading is.


Side note, in 2008 Rhode Island ruled that it was a sport and now RIIL holds states.

carnation 07-22-2010 09:39 AM
Competition cheering is a sport, for sure, but not sideline cheering. Huge difference.

I don't blame the volleyball players for suing!

DrPhil 07-22-2010 09:41 AM
At its most competitive level and highest level of difficulty where people have intensive training and can get hurt:*** Sport.

When it isn't competitive and only has a "clap your hands" level of difficulty: Not a sport.


***That isn't the metric for what makes something a sport.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyj87 (Post 1957586)
I just don't understand how people can say "oh yeah gymnastics a sport!" then not agree that cheerleading is.
Because they've seen sideline cheerleading that requires minimal training and barely breaks a sweat. Even cheerleading that equates to dancing and requires coordination training isn't a "sport" unless all forms of group dancing could be sports.

groovypq 07-22-2010 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957589)
At its most competitive level and highest level of difficulty where people have intensive training and can get hurt:*** Sport.

When it isn't competitive and only has a "clap your hands" level of difficulty: Not a sport.


***That isn't the metric for what makes something a sport.
Sideline cheerleading isn't just "clap your hands" level of difficulty, even if it isn't competitive. Many sideline squads do all of the same elements and have the same difficulty level of competitive squads. In the college ranks, it's usually the sideline squad that competes (i.e. Kentucky, LSU, Alabama, Louisville, etc.).

Also, it should be noted that the judge ruled that competitive cheer is not a sport in its current form for Title IX purposes. It is not fully developed in that format. He writes toward the end of the case:

"In reaching my conclusion, I also do not mean to belittle competitive cheer as an athletic endeavor. Competitive cheerleading is a difficult, physical task that requires strength, agility and grace. I have little doubt that at some point in the near future – once competitive cheer is better organized and defined, and surely in the event that the NCAA recognizes the activity as an emerging sport – competitive cheer will be acknowledged as a bona fide sporting activity by academic institutions, the public, and the law. As the evidence in this case demonstrates, however, that time has not yet arrived."

</soapbox>

DrPhil 07-22-2010 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovypq (Post 1957594)
Sideline cheerleading isn't just "clap your hands" level of difficulty, even if it isn't competitive.
I'm obviously talking about the cheerleading (sideline or not) that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GdWr8n90X4

Drolefille 07-22-2010 09:57 AM
On the actual case, I think that it's fair to have cheerleading as one "sport" but to cut volleyball and replace it with cheerleading as if that's an equal swap is stupid.

But I also have an issue with treating college athletes as money makers while requiring them to maintain amateur status to retain eligibility.

AGDee 07-22-2010 10:05 AM
If you read the article carefully, you'll see that the issue was that the competitions are not inter-collegiate but instead, sponsored by a vendor of cheerleading gear. Bottom line, there are not standings, rankings, playoffs, etc. of college cheer teams. There is not an official schedule of Team A vs. Team B, Team C vs. Team D. It is not structured as a college sport.

My other question about this is ... aren't most cheer teams in college co-ed now? They certainly were even when I was in school and when I watch college football there are men on these teams. So, how do you count that against women's volleyball even if it were structured like other sports? There are lots of male cheerleaders.

Did it occur to anybody else that the college probably spent more on fighting this in court than it would cost to run the volleyball team anyway?

AlphaFrog 07-22-2010 10:08 AM
If competition cheerleading is a sport, so is competition marching band.


/band geek

groovypq 07-22-2010 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGDee (Post 1957603)
If you read the article carefully, you'll see that the issue was that the competitions are not inter-collegiate but instead, sponsored by a vendor of cheerleading gear. Bottom line, there are not standings, rankings, playoffs, etc. of college cheer teams. There is not an official schedule of Team A vs. Team B, Team C vs. Team D. It is not structured as a college sport.

My other question about this is ... aren't most cheer teams in college co-ed now? They certainly were even when I was in school and when I watch college football there are men on these teams. So, how do you count that against women's volleyball even if it were structured like other sports? There are lots of male cheerleaders.

Did it occur to anybody else that the college probably spent more on fighting this in court than it would cost to run the volleyball team anyway?
A lot of them are, but not all (Smaller schools, for example, usually can't get the guys). The schools that are going this competition-only varsity team route -- Maryland was the first to do so -- are making them all-girl. The hope, as Quinnipiac had, is that it counts as a "female" team for Title IX purposes.

And Dee, you're spot on about the "disorganization" of cheerleading in the competitive sense. We've shot ourselves in the foot with 5,000,000 cheer companies all sponsoring competitions and "national championships." There's no one overriding body.

jennyj87 07-22-2010 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1957605)
If competition cheerleading is a sport, so is competition marching band.


/band geek
I did both. Competition marching band was a lot easier than competitive cheerleading.

XAntoftheSkyX 07-22-2010 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1957605)
If competition cheerleading is a sport, so is competition marching band.


/band geek
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyj87 (Post 1957610)
I did both. Competition marching band was a lot easier than competitive cheerleading.
I disagree. Marching band, drum and bugle corps, indoor color guard, indoor percussion ensembles and everything in the competitive marching arts blur the line between art and sport, but I feel like calling it either devalues the other portion of it.

I may be running around a football field with a 30lb horn on my shoulder marching with added ballet-esque dance 12 hours a day, but I'm still playing music.

Nanners52674 07-22-2010 11:45 AM
I'm more bothered by the fact that they have been fudging their numbers about Title IX then about a judge saying cheerleading isn't a sport. I agree with his ruling, and also with his statement that cheerleading could one day be a collegiate sport. I think if the NCAA adopted it, that it would change a lot.

I also think there is a distinction between an activity that requires athleticism, and an actual team competition sport.

TSteven 07-22-2010 12:11 PM
Go Cats!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovypq (Post 1957594)
Sideline cheerleading isn't just "clap your hands" level of difficulty, even if it isn't competitive. Many sideline squads do all of the same elements and have the same difficulty level of competitive squads. In the college ranks, it's usually the sideline squad that competes (i.e. Kentucky, LSU, Alabama, Louisville, etc.).
This is the case for current and 18 time UCA National Champions University of Kentucky. :D

Interestingly, the UK Cheerleaders are part of the UK Athletic Department. Cheerleaders may also be on athletic scholarship. However, my understanding is that UK does not count Cheerleading for Title IX purposes.

From The New York Sunday Times Magazine Sideline Acrobats published September 18, 2005.

Cheerleading is, in the popular imagination, the soft, sweet stuff of fall afternoons - the bright colors and big smiles, the irony-free heartland enthusiasm, the sideshow aspect of exhorting players and crowds by way of pompoms and short skirts. But the truth is that cheerleaders, at the college level at least, happen to be serious athletes. The University of Kentucky squad, whose current members are featured in the following photographs [link above], is the best in the country, having won the national championships of the Universal Cheerleaders Association 14 times since 1985. To watch them in training or competition (or at play in a lake) is to see acrobatic artistry at a literally sky-high level - the women soaring through the air, the men hoisting them up on single upturned palms.

To capture the greatness of the Kentucky cheerleaders, the magazine commissioned the Danish photographer Joachim Ladefoged, whose varied body of work includes photojournalism from Albania and Kosovo as well as images of bodybuilders. Ladefoged had the advantage of coming completely fresh to the American cheerleading milieu. "In Denmark, we don't have this kind of tradition," he says. "The guys are always throwing the girls in the air, and from the ground you don't see the guys' faces, because they look up all the time. I had to get around this problem by shooting down from a ladder. It was the only way to capture the faces and their concentration and at the same time completely fill the frame with flying bodies.

http://luciebartlett.files.wordpress...heer-squad.jpg
© Joachim Ladefoged/VII, for The New York Times - Members of the University of Kentucky team practice their high-flying routine before the national cheerleading championships. Although 97% of competitors are female, the physical demands of stunts mean that men are often recruited. Surprisingly, cheerleading began as an all-male pursuit, with the first females participating in the 1920s. The University of Kentucky team is seen as the best in the US, having won the championships 14 times in the past 17 years.

Just for fun and comparison, UK Cheerleaders during the Wildcats' 1958 NCAA Men's Basketball Championship. (UK's 4th Championship)

http://www.collegehoopsjournal.com/w...aders-1958.jpg

DrPhil 07-22-2010 12:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheerleading

Senusret I 07-22-2010 12:33 PM
http://i29.tinypic.com/1t7aea.jpg

DrPhil 07-22-2010 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senusret I (Post 1957639)
LOL. The first thing I noticed were the men's hard bodies. Then I said "oh, there are women smilingly flying through the air...cool...."

Munchkin03 07-22-2010 12:42 PM
Even at some HS levels, cheerleading is definitely a sport.

Even dance team! My niece is on her HS dance team as a rising freshman. From 6-12 every day, they're at practice (they had the week off after July 4). Sometimes they go back from 2-6 if there's a hip-hop camp. They have fundraisers, team bonding events, or practice on Saturdays. Those girls are NO JOKE.

jennyj87 07-22-2010 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSteven (Post 1957633)
This is the case for current and 18 time UCA National Champions University of Kentucky. :D

Interestingly, the UK Cheerleaders are part of the UK Athletic Department. Cheerleaders may also be on athletic scholarship. However, my understanding is that UK does not count Cheerleading for Title IX purposes.

From The New York Sunday Times Magazine Sideline Acrobats published September 18, 2005.

Cheerleading is, in the popular imagination, the soft, sweet stuff of fall afternoons - the bright colors and big smiles, the irony-free heartland enthusiasm, the sideshow aspect of exhorting players and crowds by way of pompoms and short skirts. But the truth is that cheerleaders, at the college level at least, happen to be serious athletes. The University of Kentucky squad, whose current members are featured in the following photographs [link above], is the best in the country, having won the national championships of the Universal Cheerleaders Association 14 times since 1985. To watch them in training or competition (or at play in a lake) is to see acrobatic artistry at a literally sky-high level - the women soaring through the air, the men hoisting them up on single upturned palms.

To capture the greatness of the Kentucky cheerleaders, the magazine commissioned the Danish photographer Joachim Ladefoged, whose varied body of work includes photojournalism from Albania and Kosovo as well as images of bodybuilders. Ladefoged had the advantage of coming completely fresh to the American cheerleading milieu. "In Denmark, we don't have this kind of tradition," he says. "The guys are always throwing the girls in the air, and from the ground you don't see the guys' faces, because they look up all the time. I had to get around this problem by shooting down from a ladder. It was the only way to capture the faces and their concentration and at the same time completely fill the frame with flying bodies.

http://luciebartlett.files.wordpress...heer-squad.jpg
© Joachim Ladefoged/VII, for The New York Times - Members of the University of Kentucky team practice their high-flying routine before the national cheerleading championships. Although 97% of competitors are female, the physical demands of stunts mean that men are often recruited. Surprisingly, cheerleading began as an all-male pursuit, with the first females participating in the 1920s. The University of Kentucky team is seen as the best in the US, having won the championships 14 times in the past 17 years.

Just for fun and comparison, UK Cheerleaders during the Wildcats' 1958 NCAA Men's Basketball Championship. (UK's 4th Championship)

http://www.collegehoopsjournal.com/w...aders-1958.jpg

Every girl/guy from my HS/competition teams dreamed of going to UK and being on that team.

KSUViolet06 07-22-2010 01:10 PM
I'd say it is if you are stunting, tumbling and competing.

One of my guy friends (and past formal date in college) cheered when we were in undergrad. He had conditioning every AM from 5:30-7 and practice every night from about 7-9pm..

The team competed in the big UCA competition at Disney every spring. As a result, they stayed at school over winter break and practiced every single day to prepare for it.

I've watched videos of the practices/routines and they are no joke.

Also, our family friend's daughter has cheered competitively since age 5 and is now competing at the highest level (there are difficulty levels 1-5).

During the summer, she has camp for a week, followed by 2x/week of tumbing, and pracice 3x/week. These aren't back-handsprings she's working on either. I think their team goal for this summer includes having the entire team know how to do full twisting layouts (or "fulls"). YouTube it. It's pretty serious. Her team also earned an invite to the World championship of competitive cheer, which is apparently (according to her and her friends) the holy grail of cheer.

I'd consider the above examples to be sports.

In contrast, my mom has coached rec league cheer via our local parks and rec for years. There is no stunting or tumbling involved, just sideline cheers. They also don't compete. I'd consider that an activity more than a sport.

BluPhire 07-22-2010 02:04 PM
If figure skating is an Olympic sport, why not cheerleading?

knight_shadow 07-22-2010 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957661)
If figure skating is an Olympic sport, why not cheerleading?
Probably because there's competition involved, which isn't always the case with cheerleading.

/talkingaboutcheerleadingsincecollegefootballistheo nlyrealsport

BluPhire 07-22-2010 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1957662)
Probably because there's competition involved, which isn't always the case with cheerleading.

/talkingaboutcheerleadingsincecollegefootballistheo nlyrealsport
Whatever. I think that was established in the previous page that we were talking competitive cheer, not chilling on the side line saying go team go.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957661)
If figure skating is an Olympic sport, why not cheerleading?
Because all cheerleading is not created equally and even wikipedia acknowledges that. I wouldn't tell a cheerleader who literally only leads cheers that he or she isn't a "real cheerleader" because there aren't any tumbles, flips, or jumps in the cheer routine.

When I watch figure skaters (competitive or not) I consistently see the same level of rigor and intensity including jumps and spins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating
http://www.usfsa.org/

Nanners52674 07-22-2010 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957661)
If figure skating is an Olympic sport, why not cheerleading?
It's not that cheerleading can't be a sport, it's that it can't be used for Title IX reporting. And there are a lot of events in the Olympics that aren't recognized as college sports.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957665)
Whatever. I think that was established in the previous page that we were talking competitive cheer, not chilling on the side line saying go team go.
I don't think that's been established.

knight_shadow 07-22-2010 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957665)
Whatever. I think that was established in the previous page that we were talking competitive cheer, not chilling on the side line saying go team go.
Doing flips and stunts on the sidelines doesn't make it competitive, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957669)
I don't think that's been established.
Gracias.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners52674 (Post 1957667)
And there are a lot of events in the Olympics that aren't recognized as college sports.
I'm lazy, can you give me some examples of Olympic events that aren't formally recognized as college sports?

Nanners52674 07-22-2010 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957672)
I'm lazy, can you give me some examples of Olympic events that aren't formally recognized as college sports?
Curling, skeleton, bobsled, figure skating.

I'm pretty sure none of those are college sports. I'm not sure about skiing, snowboarding, archery, cycling.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners52674 (Post 1957675)
Curling, skeleton, bobsled, figure skating.

I'm pretty sure none of those are college sports. I'm not sure about skiing, snowboarding, archery, cycling.
Thanks. Those aren't college sports (I assume for most colleges) but they are considered sports, in general.

I guess cheerleading can't be in the Olympics because there are already cheerleading competitions year-round.

Nanners52674 07-22-2010 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957678)
Thanks. Those aren't college sports (I assume for most colleges) but they are considered sports, in general.

I guess cheerleading can't be in the Olympics because there are already cheerleading competitions year-round.
I didn't mean that they're not sports. Just that simply being an Olympic sport doesn't mean it's a recognized college sport. If that makes sense.

33girl 07-22-2010 02:39 PM
Is there some sort of set of national guidelines that your program has to pass to be regarded as a competitive squad? Maybe that would help to determine whether it's a sport or not - either you fulfill certain requirements or you can't use it to meet Title IX.

LOL @ Sen. I'm partial to that one down front on the left.

BluPhire 07-22-2010 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1957671)
Doing flips and stunts on the sidelines doesn't make it competitive, either.



Gracias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyj87 (Post 1957586)
I did HS cheerleading for three years before moving to competitive.

Go to one practice of a competitive team and there will not be a doubt if its a sport or not.

I just don't understand how people can say "oh yeah gymnastics a sport!" then not agree that cheerleading is.


Side note, in 2008 Rhode Island ruled that it was a sport and now RIIL holds states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation (Post 1957587)
Competition cheering is a sport, for sure, but not sideline cheering. Huge difference.

I don't blame the volleyball players for suing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957589)
At its most competitive level and highest level of difficulty where people have intensive training and can get hurt:*** Sport.

When it isn't competitive and only has a "clap your hands" level of difficulty: Not a sport.


***That isn't the metric for what makes something a sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovypq (Post 1957594)
Sideline cheerleading isn't just "clap your hands" level of difficulty, even if it isn't competitive. Many sideline squads do all of the same elements and have the same difficulty level of competitive squads. In the college ranks, it's usually the sideline squad that competes (i.e. Kentucky, LSU, Alabama, Louisville, etc.).

Also, it should be noted that the judge ruled that competitive cheer is not a sport in its current form for Title IX purposes. It is not fully developed in that format. He writes toward the end of the case:

"In reaching my conclusion, I also do not mean to belittle competitive cheer as an athletic endeavor. Competitive cheerleading is a difficult, physical task that requires strength, agility and grace. I have little doubt that at some point in the near future – once competitive cheer is better organized and defined, and surely in the event that the NCAA recognizes the activity as an emerging sport – competitive cheer will be acknowledged as a bona fide sporting activity by academic institutions, the public, and the law. As the evidence in this case demonstrates, however, that time has not yet arrived."

</soapbox>
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1957605)
If competition cheerleading is a sport, so is competition marching band.


/band geek

Do I need to go on, or are we just gonna have a semantics debate about me not specifying competitive?

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1957686)
LOL @ Sen. I'm partial to that one down front on the left.
That's the one I was checking out.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957690)
Do I need to go on, or are we just gonna have a semantics debate about me not specifying competitive?
Uh...what? Find a more interesting topic to try to be a smartass about.

Are you now specifying competitive? If so, say so. Now, when you say competitive, are you talking about cheerleading that doesn't resemble competitive dance squads void of tumbles, towers, and jumps? Afterall, even competitive cheerleading has levels.

These are your tasks since you wanted to establish guidelines for the discussion.

BluPhire 07-22-2010 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957694)
Uh...what? Find a more interesting topic to try to be a smartass about.

Are you now specifying competitive? If so, say so. Now, when you say competitive, are you talking about cheerleading that doesn't resemble competitive dance squads void of tumbles, towers, and jumps? Afterall, even competitive cheerleading has levels.

These are your tasks since you wanted to establish guidelines for the discussion.

Okay semantics debate it is. Moving on.

**thumbs up**

If figure skating can be a sport, so can cheerleading.

DrPhil 07-22-2010 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 1957696)
Okay semantics debate it is. Moving on.

**thumbs up**
:confused: Shuttup. Seriously.

BluPhire 07-22-2010 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1957697)
:confused: Shuttup. Seriously.
Or else what, you will cuss me out on the internet?

Seriously its not that serious. I can apologize for my part for it even escalating to this point...cause it ain't that serious...its just semantics.


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