How many PMNs "know" before they even start recruitment?
 

Reading some of the threads about legacies and so on got me to wondering...

At the highly competitive schools, how many women "know" before recruitment that they will receive a bid to their legacy house?

I understand that no one truly knows until they have the bid in hand. And I'm not talking about dirty rushing or saying chapters are promising bids.

But given their connections and perhaps the prominence of their mother/sister/grandmother, what percentage of women do you think start recruitment with almost 100% certainty they will receive a bid to that chapter?

Thanks!

It would absolutely vary from chapter to chapter to an extent that there's probably no way to know whatsoever. Without a psychic and one of those little attendance clicky counter things you couldn't even begin to count.

Also if you're not talking about dirty rushing or bid promising then you're really talking about girls who THINK they know since we've had multiple stories on here about prominent legacies dropping or being dropped by their legacy chapter.

Several years ago, it was easier to "know". I remember meeting one of the cheerleaders' girlfriends before rush started at our very competitive school. They had 1 particular chapter that was next to impossible to get into and he told me she'd be pledging that one. Even then, hardly anyone said anything like that, especially with that chapter! I asked him how he could know and he said, "She's (city name) 'royalty' and a double legacy through her mom and grandma, she'll get in." Happened just like he said.

Now at the same school, you can usually point someone out and say that she'll be in, say, 1 of maybe 4 certain groups (up to 8 with some other schools) but there are certain girls who will not, under any circumstances, fly under the radar and go unbid.

Before recruitment, no doubt that most girls can only say that they think they know.

I know of one woman who was a quadruple legacy to one of the organizations on campus, including her grandmother who was the past national president. She was cut. Nothing is certain, even at a school that is not super competitive.

^We had a 5-generation legacy who we would have loved to cut. This is the woman who really didn't want to go greek in the first place. We were told that she would be extended a bid, under no uncertain terms.



BTW, I was 99% sure that I would get a bid from my legacy chapter, but I went ADPi instead. I probably would have been happy with my legacy chapter, though.

Yep.

1. Schools that are not "super competitve" still have ways of ranking PNMs/aspirants in terms of desirability and based on things like how many new members they want. Being a legacy does not mean that the legacy meets their cut-off point.

2. I'm not saying this is the case for the quadruple legacy, but overly confident legacies are annoying. Some legacies think they are damn near members and act very familiar with the GLO and the chapter. That's a good way to get axed. That's a step below wearing "future XYZ" and "my mother is an ABC" shirts around campus or wearing "ABC" socks around campus and saying "my mom bought these for me." Yes, folks, all of this does happen. The parents (or other reasons why the person's a legacy) are sometimes teaching these aspirants that this stuff is okay.

I've wondered if this happens as well in relation to a chapter's feelings about an adviser, district officer, national board, etc. Kind of the "well, you can make us do x, y or z against our will, but you can't make us extend a bid to anyone we don't want to." Membership selection is an area where the collegiate members really hold a great deal of power. As long as they follow the rules and procedures, there is nothing anyone can really do about the decisions they make.

I hate those shirts that say "Future XYZ" I just saw a ONESIE that said "XYZ Legacy" on it. I just thought... oh god, here is an innocent kid going to grow up thinking they will be an XYZ!

I heard from a friend at one competitive school that PNMs know they will get a bid to ABC because actives literally came up to certain girls that are drop dead gorgeous, models, and cheerleaders and offered them a bid a week before recruitment even started. I have a hard time believing this because I would of expected them to be caught for dirty rushing already?? Is this common in other competitive schools?

Judging from some of the posts I've read on here, that is sadly not always the case. And those rights also often decrease with the size/prestige of your chapter.

The only power some chapters can have is to treat the person like crap and ignore her after extending the bid and hope she quits. Which is why I think any chapter being forced to take anyone under any circumstance is a horrendous idea. Unless, of course, the woman pledging is only there for the doors XYZ letters will open in one or the other social circles she desires and could care less about sisterhood.

If this is really truly happening I hope other chapters are filing recruitment infractions and so are the PNMs. This is bid promising, and it's 100% against the rules. Either it's happening and it's wrong, or your friend is a gossiping shrew who is either jealous of these chapters or the PNMs that are supposedly being promised.

I totally agree. Although, I think there are times when there's pressure on a chapter to take someone, but they're not forced. Both are wrong, but it seems to me (from the outside, as my chapter was never pressured or forced to take anyone, because really, who would bother with my dirty and disgusting COR/deferred formal recruitment campus/chapter) that a lot of chapters are pressured, but if they were still to not give a bid to the legacy or other PNM, probably nothing would happen to them.

Maybe that's true, but a lot of times that isn't how it's presented. It's also a lot different when you're an active vs being a smartass alumna. :)

I definitely think it's different from our side versus the side of an active. I also think that pressuring a chapter into taking a PNM they don't want is wrong, completely. But I just wonder how many of the groups that do this type of pressure are prepared to rip a charter or follow through with some other threat should it actually happen.

What has happened to many chapters: they have lost thousands of dollars as well as considerable alum support--such as women to serve on their advisory boards, help at recruitment, etc. I have never seen a chapter of any sorority laugh and blow off the alums with "What can they do?" because unfortunately, many of them have found out.

I, for one, think that's completely ridiculous.

ridiculous it may be, but it happens.

when i was vp of membership for the alum. chapter when i lived in tulsa, i was personally calling sisters who had been active at one time, but had not been in a while. i got hold of one woman who ripped me a new one, because her daughter was dropped by her chapter, and pledged another sorority. the woman supported her daughter and helped out at that house during rush and for other events, but as long as i lived in tulsa, she never paid her alum. dues nor did she come to or support any zeta events.
my ears still burn when i think of that call.

I think there are a fair number of PNMs at many (even quite competitive schools) who do "know" they will pledge a particular chapter or one of a few number of chapters. I think it has more to do with pedigree and being groomed for recruitment "since birth." As Carnation said, some girls will not fly under the radar. However, these girls would never say they know or act overly familiar in any way. Their mothers have taught them better. So, we would really never know that they knew ahead of time.

Yes!!!! Exactly!!!!!

Gotta agree with carnation ^^^: absolutely right.

On the other hand, I personally feel that alums should try to stay out of the selection process as much as possible, and remember that it's the collegians' chapter-not the alums'. (And I say this as an alum...who has some strong opinions on advisers and alums who can't seem to remember that they are NOT in college any longer).

IMO there is no excuse whatsoever for cutting an in house legacy barring some serious defect (like...her GPA is absolutely dismal, she does copious amounts of drugs, she's single handedly spreading steeds to the entire football team, etc.). It's just unkind and not sisterly and makes both the sister and her incoming little sister feel horrible. I really don't give a damn if the incoming sister isn't as cute/fun/well dressed/outgoing/talented as her older sister. My chapter came close to making that mistake, but didn't, and it's a good thing because those members are now well loved and extremely active. (It should never have been a question in the first place as both had great resumes and are friendly, personable girls.) Another chapter on our campus dropped the younger sister of a current member who was a Recruitment Counselor that year. She did not run back to her chapter on Bid Day and couldn't stand to be around them for the rest of her time there, and the girl was blatantly cut because of her appearance. She pledged another chapter and as far as I know was happy there, but she should've been given a choice.

Fully agree. If I had a little sister that got cut from my chapter I wouldn't want anything to do with it, either. (Though I can't say I'd quit my organization...that's a chapter problem, not an organization problem.) The four years I was active I only know of one younger sister getting cut by her older sister's chapter, and it's the one I mentioned. Everyone else seems to have had the sense to know that is not a battle worth fighting unless they have a good enough reason that even the older sister can agree with them. (Which IMO is like I said...super slutbot, a 0.something GPA, a drug problem...that sort of thing).

As disturbing and cruel as I find cutting an in house to legacy, it's just as awkward and horrible when an active sister badmouths her younger sister coming through recruitment.

In that case she probably doesn't want her sister in the house and she'd be dropped, right? I've never encountered that but it seems like that would make it easier on the house unless they really wanted the younger sister. Then if they wanted to cut, they could without worrying about the consequences.

I have a family member who is an (probably eternal) aspirant and I wouldn't want her to become a member (at least anytime soon) if I had any say so. So, I can see how this could be the case for more immediate legacies (parents or siblings are members).

Or vice versa.

During my collegian years, we had 3 in-house sister legacies pledge. Everyone loved them. We had another possible one coming up, who we all liked fine, but she made it quite clear that she didn't want to be a part of us. I honestly can't remember who cut who. She pledges our rival and a year later all she can tell her bio sister is how miserable she is. Sorry baby girl, you had your chance.

We also found out (after the fact) that one of our pledges had a cousin in another group (coincidentally the same one as above) who pushed for them to cut her. As it turned out cousin was hella smarter than we were as we ended up terminating her for a myriad of bad behavior.

We once cut an in-house sister legacy who was, indeed, a super slutbot. The in-house sister wasn't too upset - she knew what her bio sis was. The legacy pledged another house but didn't last long there, or at our school.

My older daughter (who didn't pledge but went to the same university as younger daughter) and I "knew" what choices the Reluctant One would have going in. One house surprised us, but I understood why it wasn't a fit from the beginning. And yes, prior to recruitment we (the elders) "knew" where she would pledge if the PNM was to stick it out.

If the birth order had been reversed and there was a younger sister: I know that if she wasn't offered a bid the Reluctant One would have gone on a tirade. And that, shall I say delicately, would be very unpleasant.

I have some serious Kappa pride and was super involved in my chapter as an undergrad, but I'm pretty sure I would have dropped off the radar for the last semester of my undergrad experience if my sister (who went through recruitment last January) had been cut. I say that because I knew for a fact she was a terrific fit for the group and would add a lot to the chapter - I was an active who knew the sisters and the campus culture, and I obviously know my sister very well. Luckily, I was 100% right - my sisters loved her in the rush room and one of my happiest moments was seeing her in our letters on Bid Day. She's been a great asset to our chapter. However, if she had been rushing at another chapter (or at mine, say 5 years after I graduated) I don't think I could manage that level of vitriol for my organization if she had been cut. If you're not actually an active member who knows the sisters and the culture I think it's hard to determine whether or not your legacy is a good fit.

In any event, I've never seen a sister of an active cut from her legacy group at Hopkins. In the history of our (relatively young) chapter there have only been two Kappa sister legacies and they both went Kappa, but there was an unusually high number of them last recruitment and they all ended up pledging their bio sisters' chapters. I have, however, heard of girls (not in my chapter) threatening to disaffiliate if their sisters were cut.

My little sis (bio) also came through recruitment when I was a senior. I convinced her to rush even though she had a negative opion of greek life(too many movies!). We've been awfully close our whole lives and I think she agreed because she knew that I was cool, so how bad could it be? She had met and hung out with a lot of my sisters and loved them. I was an officer at the time and let's just say I would've cut (with a razor) anybody and everybody who denied her. She was fit for us, and really any of the chapters on campus would have been lucky to call her their sister (though many cut her because of her biological ties to my house), she was and is a sweet, beautiful, funny, lovely young lady. I know one house in particular (we battled them for girls a lot)that she preffed at told her that she had to be tired of living under my shadow and being know as my little sister, didn't she want to use college as a chance to become her own person? Biatches. She didn't fall for it. And like littleowl, it was the highlight of my college experience seeing her run onto our lawn on Bid Day. After, two of my sisters took me aside and told me that even if she hadn't been related to me they would have had her at the top of the list. But the icing on the cake, was little sis telling me four years later that regardless of what my affiliation was, my chapter and her chapter was the only chapter for her!
And P.S. this is where I confess that I would have been heartbroken to see her in another's letters.