Sorority Expansion
 

I wasn't sure where to exactly post this but I have a question that I've been wanting to get answer about this.

I attend SIU Carbondale where the Greek System is really starting to take off with the expansion of two more fraternities this year on my campus bring the IFC total to 14. However the real problem is the fact that we only have 3 Pan Hellenic sororities being DZ, SK and AGD.

Recently our school has invited the Pan Hellenic expansion committee or whatever come to our school last year and left our school with quote "A toxic environment to let a new chapter come in." Which I think is ridiculous but that is just what I heard from some of the girls in two of the sororities.

So my question is, Why does the Pan Hellenic rules have to require 70+ girls in each out and forcing us to have three chapters instead of us getting maybe two more sororities and letting them down size to maybe 40 girls in each since that's the average size of every fraternity on campus is?

Because I think if a sorority wants to expand to a campus, they shouldn't have to go through the national Pan Hellenic council to get permission first and then go through a long process of paperwork and a campus evaluation where chances are they come during a bad week.

What chapter are you in there? Or are you IN a chapter at all? (You're unclear on that)

SIUC has a party school reputation and there are almost certainly valid reasons why the NPC isn't interested in expansion there at this time. You heard the information through a glorified game of telephone so don't assume you have the full story. (I don't know if the party school rep is part of the reason, but it is there.) How do the chapters get along? Is the school supportive of Greeks? Are the students supportive of Greeks?

And more importantly, what happened during "a bad week?"


Sororities and fraternities don't usually try to have equal numbers in their chapters. It's not uncommon that the NPC chapters are larger than the men's fraternities. And chapters of 70 are not seen as particularly large as far as the NPC goes. However your 3rd hand info said it wasn't about numbers.

All of the NPC sororities are NPC sororities because they agreed to the NPC rules on expansion (among other things.) That's why they follow these rules you think are silly. And you assume that a sorority would want to come to your campus in such a "toxic environment" anyway.

If the school will allow a local, or a non-NPC national or regional sorority then that could be the way to go to bring another sorority onto campus if that's where the interest lies. But if the campus has issues, more chapters won't solve anything.

A. It's National Panhellenic Conference. This is one of my pet peeves so just stick with me here. National Pan-Hellenic Council is a completely different entity, and there is no such thing as Pan Hellenic (as a governing body over Greek Life Organizations).

B. NPC is fully within its right to choose to expand or not expand on a given campus, provided that the college administration and Campus Panhellenic Council have opened for expansion. This happens more than you would think - NPC is interested in the health of its chapters - if there are "dealbreakers" on a given campus then it's likely that it will not want to expand there just yet. This is not necessarily a bad thing. All you've given us for reasoning is that it's a "toxic" environment - this could mean a number of things and is not neccesarily a slam on the greek life environment or the chapters that are currently there. Since I don't know much about that campus, I can't really speak to whatever is or is not "apparent" on the campus.

I say they're not willing to expand there yet because things can change, particularly through the hard work of a campus greek system as a whole. Please keep this in mind, sometimes you can accomplish a lot by taking a practical problem-solving approach to some of the campus-wide problems that are apparent.

C. NPC is not forcing you to only have 3 sororities on campus, they're only allowing 3 NPC chapters. They are also not forcing you to have 70+ members per chapter - total is usually decided on the campus level. If there are women interested in starting a local organization or looking into bringing a non-NPC national organization on campus, and the administration and CPC are open to that, then more power to them. The NPC is only 26 (I rarely say "only" in that statement) organizations - they are not THE only 26 organizations. Although I have a strong bias toward the NPC, that does not mean it's the only way for a woman to have a rich and wonderful greek life experience.

D. NPC organizations must follow NPC expansion agreements. If they did not, it would be a free-for-all that could create real problems, perhaps not on your campus but on a number of other campuses.

E. I'm interested in what's a "bad" week, and why your campus would HAVE a "bad" week knowing that an NPC expansion committee is on campus. These things don't usually happen by surprise.

F. Ideally, the NPC doesn't want to set up a new chapter to "fail" - and no organization wants that either.

5 NPC sororities have chartered and closed at your campus. One closed as recently as 2008. Your panhellenic likely has very valid reasons for declining to expand at this time.

PKTsaluki-

Not sure how long you have been at SIU, but 2 years ago (I believe), an NPC organization was scheduled to recolonize/reorganize their chapter. Unfortunately, there did not seem to be enough interest among the unaffiliated women to bring the chapter back.

Everything I can find about Greek Life at SUIC that isn't on their own website says "If you're serious about Greek Life go elsewhere, all they want to do here is drink."

And that's not just a Greek problem at SIUC but a campus problem. I have friends who went to SIUC and the party school rep is a BIG problem. This is a school that used to close for Halloween, whose students have caused significant property damage every year (although better), and that now tries to plan family weekend over Halloween just to keep thing semi-sane. Even if the nights no longer end in tear gas, it's not an image that people want to be associated with.

/grain of salt and all that

So, is this just a guy who wants another sorority on campus? (PKTsaluki)

Telling us we do it wrong. :rolleyes:

Is it just me, or do fraternity members, particularly undergrads, love to do that?

OMG Fiance would do that. No, we do not operate the same way you guys do.

This. As someone who would also rather see 6 chapters of 40 than 3 chapters of 70, I'm with PKTsaluki on that score. The thing is, the sororities HAVE TO VOTE TO DECREASE TOTAL. If their nationals aren't letting them do that (and this does happen occasionally) that isn't Panhellenic's fault. If there are sororities with big houses to maintain who don't want to lower total that also isn't Panhellenic's fault.

I know what vp is saying about having sororities that aren't NPC, but what happens in this situation is the "service" or "professional" sorority turns into a social sorority that occasionally does service and gets around the alcohol rules of NPCs. Then Panhel gets pissed and the bad blood gets even worse. It's not a good idea to promote establishment of something other than a social group if what people truly want is a social group.

Closed colony thread that LaneSig referenced:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...d.php?t=102389

I won't say that just because a colony fails doesn't mean there is no room for a new Greek group. That is nothing against the above group, just a general statement. Sometimes the "fit" that seemed great to Panhel members doesn't come across to the campus at large. It happens.

And regardless of whether the school is "toxic" it was very unprofessional of the NPC rep to put it that way. "The system has some challenges it needs to address" would have been a little better.

My school is finally getting its head out of its ass and inviting back some of the fraternity chapters that were closed for bogus reasons. However, there's NO WAY IN HELL I think they're ready for any of the sororities to come back. Different things are different.

We don't know what the NPC rep said, we know what a fraternity guy heard from a sorority member. If it had been for public consumption it might have been worded differently.

It's certainly possible that there could be a new chapter, but honestly, chapters of 70 are really reasonable IMO. Those are pledge classes of about 20 accounting for a bit of loss/graduation etc. That means about 60 people who complete rush each year. I'm not really seeing a desperate need for expansion there.

ETA: Not that there couldn't be an interest for a non-NPC group, but I agree that it shouldn't just be an attempt to dodge NPC rules, but an actual desire for a MCGLO, a service GLO, etc.

It's funny I read the post and my first thought was "oh, he wants more even mixers"

FWIW I don't think 70 is an out of the question size, I just personally would rather have more options. If that means the chapters are smaller, so be it. What I'm trying to put across to Boy Who Wants More Chicks is that this isn't something that big, bad NPC is doing - or every school across the country would have the same magic number for total.

Oh yeah, I follow. And it's possible that a non-NPC option is actually a pretty good one. But SIUC (greek system included) has bigger issues IMO.

Ok to help defend my case that I had made this morning.

Yes I am a Fraternity guy who is very active at SIUC's Greek System.

I understand that at most schools but the university is no where close to where it used to be tag lined as a party school. And I mean no where close to being one since both the town and school are really cracking down on underage drinking and unregistered socials.

But the main purpose as to why I think it would be nice to have more NPC chapter at SIUC is to help our Greek Systems competition scale get better and involve more participation from chapters who do not participate because they do not have a partner. We have 1 big all Greek competition every semester First semester Homecoming, and second semester its the Theta Xi Variety Show. It's always the same three fraternities and the sororities.

Our fraternities get extremely discouraged to participate in any event if they do not get teamed up with a sorority and it makes our Greek community look sad in front of the school when the school is now finally giving more support to us since we have not had any real major incident since 2004. With the school's support I feel that the alumni are going to really want to push to bring in there old chapters after this years homecoming since the alumni association is hosting its first ever all Greek reunion for all active and inactive chapters to come back. Along with the university finally getting around to building us a new Greek Row even though it will eventually effect my chapter more.

And to Drolefille. Our Greek system does not have big issues. Asides from the usual idiots in IFC chapters but that's how it is at every school.

PKTsaluki, the best you can do is find out the rationale behind not expanding and do something about it. No guarantees that anything would actually happen, but at least you can hear it from a better source than GC since we were not involved in the decision. I'm sure there is more to it than having a bad day or week. If it is something the sororities on campus - and Greek Life office - feel strongly about, they will want to do something to make their campus more desirable for expansion. Support from the fraternities on campus would certainly be a factor, albeit not the most critical.

Regarding your point about having a better ratio of fraternities & sororities, I totally hear you. My school had roughly twice as many fraternities as sororities. However, due to multiple factors it is very common to have more fraternities than sororities. NPC and IFC/etc have vastly different approaches to expansion, recruitment, and even programming. Policies also tend to differ quite a bit.

NPC expands in a very specific way. If the school is not expanding right now, there's likely a reason for it. You don't have to like it or agree with it -- it is what it is.

I doubt adding an additional sorority is going to make non-active fraternity members jump into action. Also, it's unlikely that adding another organization is going to make the general student population take notice and "appreciate" GLOs more.

You should likely focus your energy elsewhere.

This. What are the circumstances regarding all of these chapters? (Not expecting absolute answers, but it's something to think about.)

Forming a new chapter or recolonizing a closed one takes a lot of effort - lots of time, money, alumni/ae support, I/NHQ support, school interest and student interest. The reasons why so many NPC chapters have left might still be relevant. I don't know. But imagine all the time, money, man-power and resources that were spent maintaining all of those chapters, only to have them close. If you build a house on mud and it sinks, are you going to build another on such unstable ground?

You didn't share the history of NPC chapters on your campus, nor did you expound on what a "bad week" means. We can only guess what that means, so it's hard to agree with you.

Actually, there IS an extensive history of the SIU Panhellenic. A friend of mine who lives in Carbondale wrote it as a graduate history project. (Her doctoral dissertation is about the early years of NPC.)

I've read both, but I don't remember the details of the SIU history. (Hey, I'm pleased that I remembered that my friend had written it.)

We hear from a number of people on here that they are writing a "paper" about Greek life, and never hear from them again. Is your friend's dissertation something for public consumption and available to read online?

My point is that the OP was complaining about the process for bringing a new NPC chapter on campus, without telling us that a handful had closed in recent years.

^^^ probably requires university access. Most dissertations are available but you need to have a school account (any school account usually).

I am alumnae of SIU. Chapter total is at 70 becuase the current housing situation requires approx. 40 women to live in the house. If chapter total was lower, the organizations would not be able to afford the houses. The new housing that is supposed to be built may be in the 25 range (with some small group townhouses), but plans are still in the works. I went to help with formal recruitment in Fall 2007. Quota was 6. I know numbers have been higher, but there needs to be stability before growth.

In 2009, one organization went under a reorganinztion by their HQ. Around the same time, another organiztion tried to recolonize.

As someone who has served on my campus Panhellenic Association's Extension Exploration Committee, allow me to educate you on the process of NPC extension.

When campus Panhellenic membership numbers increase, Panhellenic will form a committee to research the possibility of extension or raising total. This will be composed of members from the local chapters. They look at historical recruitment numbers, recent extensions at peer campuses, and consider what they see as an ideal chapter size on their campus. The committee presents to the campus Panhellenic, and the delegates vote on whether to open for extension.

If the campus Panhellenic votes in favor of extension, NPC groups will visit campus and submit binders of information if interested. They may withdraw their interest if after visiting they are no longer interested. Of the interested groups, the campus Panhellenic will select 2-4 groups to present, and then the delegates will vote on which groups will be invited to extend.

NPC doesn't have the power to tell a group that they can't colonize at a university if it's what the campus Panhellenic and the specific NPC group both want. NPC (or possibly individual NPC groups, since you don't have the full story) visited campus and determined extension was not viable. Either SIUC Panhellenic voted no on extension or no NPC groups are interested in colonizing. This brings me to the main point...

NPC groups do not want to set a chapter up to fail. If there is no interest for another NPC sorority at the current total, it's not going to happen. NPC groups like all groups on a campus to be about the same size. It's quite possible that the Panhellenic groups like having 70 members each, and that there is no evidence (ie recruitment numbers rising every year) that there is interest to support another 70-member chapter.

Look at the thread about the year's extensions and closures. NPC groups have far fewer closures than NIC groups. I wouldn't want my chapter to be one of those flashes in the pan, part of the boom and bust cycle of chartering. I am glad adding another chapter requires a 2/3 majority of existing NPC groups.

Re: Homecoming, my school has 14 PHA sororities and low 20s-ish IFC fraternities. Every fraternity gets matched with a sorority for Homecoming and Greek Week. Say there are 21 fraternities. Since membership sizes vary, the largest 7 are paired with a sorority. The next 7 (medium size) are paired with one of the remaining 7 (smallest), and then paired with a sorority. Perhaps SIUC could match fraternities with each other (based on size) to allow all to be matched with a sorority.

Thanks, that provides a LOT of insight into the system and sounds like a good reason not to bring another group on for the next year or so.

Is there just not a lot of Greek interest among women at SIUC?

There are several things:

1. My impression is there is too much apathy on campus. Lots of followers with not enough leaders. When I last visited the PC officers and Gamma Chis thought just putting up fliers was enough to advertise recruitment. Quota was about 18 the semester I joined and increased every year I was there. Plus there were 5 chapters not 3. I remember initation for 28 women my senior year. Total went from 65 to 75 in those years.
2. The houses aren't exactly a step of from dorms. The houses are glorified military barracks. They were orginally built as temporary housing and 50 years later are just being torn down.
3. In the past there hasn't been Panhellenic unity. Pick on the smallest. Problem with that is somebody always has to be on the bottom. I really believe a strong unified Panhellenic makes each individual chapter stronger.
4. Chapters have issues with retention and freshman aren't in any hurry to join. It is well known you can usually join anytime with COB because Total hasn't been adjusted well to work with current interest
5. Three of the biggest fraternities have left since 2000 with risk management issues. One will never be allowed back. Several medium and smaller fraternities have fell off.

A dissertation on the early years of the NPC would be a great read!

Thanks, that was very informative!

I can try and browse and see what I can find.

Why, thank you!!

As VP said - pair multiple fraternities with a sorority. The girls will be a hell of a lot happier, trust me. If the fraternities are that much smaller, it won't be a sausage fest. Also, if the sororities are picking the same fraternities all the time, the other guys need to either step up their game or say "screw it" and go watch a Monty Python marathon.

CFF - the Panhel needs to get in touch with their area advisor ASAP to fix the total issues, etc. Does the Greek advisor know what he/she is doing or are they part of the problem?

Is there any way the Greek houses could be duplexed (for lack of a better word) until the new housing gets built? It definitely sounds like that is a big part of the problem.

This is all sadly familiar. :(

ETA:

I just looked at irishpipes' rush thread. Of the cited 5 sorority chapters that have closed, 2 were only open for a minute in the 1970s (many chapters at many schools were only open for a minute in the 1970s) and the other was open for 2 minutes in the 1980s, and I'm guessing was chartered as a sorority appealing to a certain group. Within the past 15 years, they've lost 2 chapters, which really isn't anything outside the norm IMO.

The bad week as I have stated may have come around the time of the Theta Xi variety show which normally afterwords brings out the worse from a lot of the house and shows peoples true colors to one another just because of the letters they wear.

Also when Tri Sigma tried to recolonize, they only got nine girls during an informal rush during second semester when maybe a total of 20 girls try and rush each house. They could have been more successful if they waited until Fall 2009 to recruit which they did not.

Our Greek system is still recovering, and with the expansion of IFC fraternities being allowed to come in and leave whenever they would like is allowed. It's not my fault in the early 2000's those 3 successful chapters that got kicked off for poor grades and excessive partying to one fraternity having a nightmare in a poor pledge ship program.

But getting back to my main point. After talking with all the greek advisors at my school, they have told me that they are still continuing trying to get another NPC chapter on campus before the new Greek Row gets built. It's been a hassle for them because of the amount of paperwork apparently or something to that extent.

You really have no way to know the bolded. Recolonizations can go wrong, but these people have more experience than you do.

Does that not scream out at you? If the animosity for each other was that obvious - that visitors the university witnessed it (and I'm guessing that they were only there during the school week, and probably only on campus during the daytime) - it has to be pretty severe.

You said that they showed their "true colors". What did the students do? Fight? Vandalize property? What did the delegates witness?

I second that!

No sign of the NPC dissertation, no idea if that's because it isn't done yet or it isn't there. Get me a name and I'll take a look :D

This is exactly what a chapter trying to recolonize at my school did - they recruited during a formal rush period with the rest of the groups. So basically what happened is the rushees went from roomfuls of 18-21 year olds looking cute and singing songs and talking about mixers and other fun things, to a roomful of 25+ year old alumnae (many of whom weren't even from the campus) telling them about all the work they would have to do to build up a new chapter.

EPIC FAIL doesn't even begin to cover it and I really wish I knew what that group's HQ was smoking when they dreamed this plan up.

Girls going through regular formal rush are not necessarily the girls who want to be part of a colony. It's a LOT of work and that's why sorority colonies-to-be generally have one day at the beginning of formal rush to announce their presence and then bow out. All Tri Sigma would have accomplished if they did what you propose is probably wasting a lot more money on decorations and such.

Still wondering why a FRATERNITY MEMBER is worrying about SORORITY affairs.

Like NPC members (or Greeks, for that matter) are the ONLY people to mix with.

Keep it moving, kid...

Thank you!

The campus needs at least another year of stable NPC recruitment results. In addition, this campus holds fall formal recruitment and partially structured informal recruitment in the spring. Membership recruitment and retention aren't enough to maintain chapter totals. This type of recruitment structure is draining as the chapters do not have as much chance to work on sisterhood (which would probably help with retention).

It is very possible to pair two fraternities with one sorority for homecoming and the variety show. It was a great deal of fun the year we won with LXA and Theta Xi. It really helps with expenses too. The sororities just need to have a heart to heart with fraternities and tell them to put on their big boy pants.

That's how most colonizations are done. Interviews are conducted by a team of alumnae (old and new) and then another chapter is brought in to do a pref or other party. Very standard procedure.