Restrictions on wearing letters
 

Hi all,

I was speaking with my younger sister this past weekend and she brought up a situation that kind of puzzled me. Most, if not all, sororities and fraternities tend to have rules (spoken or unspoken) about not wearing your letters while doing certain things. Some say that letters shouldn't be worn out to a bar, while others forbid smoking while wearing letters. There are all sorts of rules, different for each group.

However, she told me about this situation: she is in a sorority in which two of the sisters will sometimes wear their letters in one way or another to political rallies and/or handing out literature on the street. Basically, they will wear shirts with the sorority's name on it from an event, or they will carry a bag with their letters on it, etc. Most of the members in the sorority agree with the causes that the two wearing letters support, and so they don't see any problem with it. There are no formal rules regarding this. However, my sister is one girl that feels differently and would rather her sorority's name not be affiliated with politics and causes that she doesn't really believe in. She would rather the letters not be involved at all.

She is getting a bit of resistance from the rest of the chapter, who agree with the two letter-wearers. What do you guys think? I'm not exactly sure what to tell her.

Thanks!!

I remember this coming up a lot around the 2008 election, a lot of people on FB having to specify that their letters and greek affiliation had no bearing on their political beliefs.

I think this has been discussed before on GC - while i think its great to show that, as a member of the greek community, you are politically engaged (and going to forums and voting could be an example of that) but its the how. Wearing a discreet pin, taking notes with a lettered notepad or pen, or even a tote is one thing.

However, if you're in a huge block-letter tee (or a line jacket, or something of that vein) holding a sign at a rally or protest, its a little more visible and vocal. Even without opening your mouth you're representing your organization, whether positive or negative, in a way you weren't necessarily given permission.

This is very similar to many companies' (and universities even) stance on wearing branded apparel at such events. Americorps has rules around this (speaking from experience) as well, since I'm representing a governmental entity on work hours.

I see nothing wrong with wearing your letters or symbols to a "Race for the Cure" but I don't see the point in wearing them to voice support or do service for a politician. But, I hate politics and politicians so keep in mind how that is an additional context for my stance.

One thing that I absolutely hated were the "XYZ for Obama" shirts. The shirts annoyed me on so many levels and some organizations made public statements against anything that created the appearance that "XYZ supports a candidate." Wear a shirt that's in the colors of your GLO if you want to. Don't put your GLO's letters, symbols, or any identifying markers on the shirt.

As for the other stuff organizations frown upon their members doing in letters, it does differ for every organization. Moreover, members need to know the difference between personal opinion, chapter traditions, and what their national body actually mandates/protocol and traditions. For instance, some chapters don't wear lettered jackets wrapped around their waists. That's cool, just don't don't try to control what members from other chapters do, even if they are visiting your campus.

Double triple quadruple freakin' AMEN. (You should have seen my alma mater during the "grunge" era - the jackets around the waists thing was out of control. I thought it was lame, not out of letter disrespect but because it reminded me of doing that with my jacket when I was 10. :) )

As far as the political question...sometimes that jacket with the letters on is the only weather-appropriate thing you have at college. That's one thing. But you don't need to also wear the letter sweatshirt, the colors, the bag with it, or say when handing out fliers "I'm a member of ASA and we just think Lyndon LaRouche is yummy!"

You also need to look at it in a purely practical fashion and realize that you may be driving away rushees who don't agree with your political ideals. It can also make those in the chapter who don't agree (and who aren't as gutsy as the OP's sister - good for her by the way) fearful of speaking up. This is why I'm also not exactly high on the concept of prayer groups or bible studies sponsored by a particular chapter.

Grunge is grungy enough without jackets around your waist. Although, when it gets too warm to have your jacket on, around the waist is more convenient than carrying it.

LOL. LOL.

Wearing letters when you hand out fliers could be interpreted the same way.

^^ I'm proud of her for speaking up, too. Unfortunately, it didn't make a difference, and it (of course) started a mild fight within the group. I wish there was something else I could tell her to do, but since the overwhelming majority of the group likes the fact that the sorority is represented in this way, I'm just kind of shrugging my shoulders on this one. And it's too bad.

She could always do something morally repugnant to prove a point (like wearing her letters to a White Power rally) but the downside of that is, umm, attending a White Power rally.

If I were in her shoes (and thank God my chapter brothers aren't so dense) I would bring up the issue at a meeting. Since the majority of the chapter seems to be against her, I would make in into an "okay, prove me wrong" scenario, and get a chapter advisor, Greek life advisor, or regional director to talk some sense into them. People love to prove that they're right, so they'll take the bait. This way you can get an outside perspecitve into the situation without becoming a tattletale.

Agreed. This goes above and beyond what the chapter feels is right. This is about the members of the sorority protecting its tax-exempt status.

I really need members of non-profit organizations/tax-exempt organizations to understand this.

I think we discussed this on GC last year because I had a similar issue with my chapter. There are often protests at my alma mater (for immigrants' rights, budget cuts, workers' rights, etc.) and I felt that this wasn't an appropriate place to wear letters. Students have been arrested at protests before (none of my sisters, to my knowledge). I can totally see why your sister was concerned. Stuff happens, man!

Amen

[rant/]Actually one of my biggest pet peeves are the "XYZ <3s ZYX" shirts or signs. Most of the time it's not a big deal, but some people actually take that shit seriously and start feeling entitled to friendships/dating opportunities in the other organization. I hear people say it all the time, "Oh XYZ? Yeah, they love us. If you join they will love you too."[/rant]

Aren't those usually tied in with a Homecoming or Greek Week pairing?

Not for the NPHC. They are people wearing shirts reflecting constitutional bonds, unconstitutional bonds, and/or romantic relationships with other NPHCers.

How I feel about that depends on the context. NPHCers generally know the protocol and traditions.

I think it would be appropriate for her to bring this up to her chapter council and look in to making a rule that DOES apply to this sort of situation. I can sympathize with her because I have sisters who support both extreme conservative and liberal causes and I hate extremities, period. I HAVE asked sisters to avoid wearing their letters to meetings/rallies supporting their causes of choice. Her chapter should already have a code of standards that specifies when to not wear letters (most commonly when drinking/smoking) and it would not be hard to add political rallies to the list. Good places to wear letters: volunteering in the community, class, religious organizations, etc. Bad places: Drunk fests, any place where there is illegal activity, political rallies.

I disagree completely with the last one. For a sorority to be interpreted as espousing a particular religion (unless they ARE affiliated with one per their charter) is just as inappropriate as the political example.

Sorry but in this case if you do one, you definitely gotta do the other.

Also, volunteering at Planned Parenthood could be interpreted as "volunteering in the community" and not "political," and there are plenty of people out there who don't agree with some of the things PP does. Just because you're not marching up and down the street with a sign in your hand doesn't mean you're not making a political statement.

As long as no member of a certain religion is told they CAN'T wear their letters around their religious organization, I don't see the problem. For instance, a lot of my chapter sisters regularly attended Campus Outreach in letters. I affiliate with no religion, but I can't think of a reason why that would offend me. I'm not talking about militant groups that preach prejudice against another group or religion, but instead bible studies, campus outreach meetings, or for instance being a camp counselor at camps with religious affiliation that are moderate. I know it's POSSIBLE that someone would assume we were a Christian chapter because sisters attended CO while wearing letters, but that's probably not likely. It depends on the chapter and their campus's culture I'm sure.

IMO that's different from attending a "pro-life" stake out of an abortion clinic, or other such public and radical rallies.

Yes it does. The problem is the slippery slope. Some people consider their political beliefs just as important as others consider their religion, and when you tell one girl that wearing letters to the Methodist Church cookout is OK and tell another girl that wearing letters to a Ron Paul rally is forbidden...then you're going to tick someone off.

my chapter doesn't mind

I think it's important that there's a difference between wearing an "XYZ supports <SOMETHING>" shirt and wearing your letters in public to events you choose to attend.

And I question whether the original sister objected to the concept as a whole or only because it was in regards to something she disapproved of.

Well let me put it this way...MANY sororities have religious references in ritual or ceremonies. It's hard to cut out all religious association when there are references left from the days of many of our founders. I can't see myself telling a sister she can't wear her jersey to a Campus Outreach meeting, even though you couldn't pay me to attend one. But politics are ever changing and generally speaking can get much more extreme than youth groups. (Again, I'm not talking about any religious organizations that are extreme...I don't know what you'd do about that, but I haven't had any experience with a situation like that.) Girls in sororities on my campus were frequently asked not to wear letters to meetings of a club that supports the legalization of marijuana. I'm much more likely to attend that meeting than Campus Outreach, but I can see why letters don't belong there. People probably assume that attendees are potheads. It's one thing to assume that, it's another to walk into a room and see ten XYZ shirts. What assumptions would be made there? As I see it, most religions can be boiled down to this: they encourage and help their followers to be better people. Of course, not everyone is a good follower, but the religions themselves are good things, as far as I'm concerned. I don't mind a sister showing she is religious and loves her organization by wearing her badge to church or temple or whatever.

Like I said, I'm sure the situation would vary from chapter to chapter, depending on campus culture. I went to school in the south, where not only is religion part of the ritual of many of the sororities on campus, it's just part of the community. It wouldn't be worth the fight to tell people they had to disassociate from their organization when attending religion related activities. Trust me, it would be a FIGHT. I also have friends at a school that associates directly with a Christian denomination. Obviously on their campus, their letters are directly connected to religion by default, even though none of the organizations are Christian.

I know that in my sorority, Jesus Christ is one of our exemplars and we do have Bible quotes here and there. That doesn't mean you have to be a Christian to join (any more than you have to be a follower of Hermes, another one of our exemplars). I don't consider that a "religious association" as we are not asking girls to do anything more than listen to it during ritual. What if a sister's a Wiccan? Is she allowed to sit at the "Campus Wiccan Club" information booth with a letter shirt on?

This reminds me of Donna Martin on 90210 leading the "condoms in school" crusade and David assuming that she was using them...when actually she was a virgin. It might be that people just don't approve of the ridiculous "war on drugs" and the insanely long sentences given to nonviolent offenders (while rapists and murderers are released to make room for them). I guess it's a different little world in the south, but I personally would be extremely offended if, as it seems, some people's beliefs are more equal than others.

Well, kind of both. She originally felt a little weird seeing her letters seemingly attached to the campaign of a certain political party, and when she wondered if there was a rule about wearing letters while doing things like that, she was told that the sisters didn't mind, as long as it was for a certain political party. That is when she became more uncomfortable. The unofficial word was that the upperclassmen (and most of the sisters, anyhow) thought it was great for one, and a no-go for the other. I just think that kind of sucks. She's not someone who is okay with confrontation, so I'm not sure she knows what she will do next, if anything.

Not necessarily.

Besides -- don't undergrads have other shirts? I say save the GLO shirts for GLO functions.

Please don't use our name...
 

As a conservative (and sometimes I feel like the only one left), I would not feel comfortable wearing a "Phi Mu supports McCain" shirt or something along those lines. I don't feel I should place my GLO's letters along "supports ___" because, although I may support it-I have many sisters who do not.

I remember this was an issue when I was an undergrad. We had a shirt that said something along the lines of "We support the LGBT community" or "Gay Penn State" or something. On the back it listed all the organizations that supported the shirt. My GLO (as well as the GLO of EVERY organization, pretty much) was on the shirt. Don't get me wrong-I have no issues supporting the gay community but, sometimes they are very IN YOUR FACE about things that make me uncomfortable. They wave flags at homecoming that say "We Are...Gay Penn State" or have kissing contests on the stairs of Old Main. I don't care if you are gay or straight...I don't need to see you making out on a park bench...There is a time and place for everything (gay or straight). I did not appreciate my group supporting certain organizations without an actual vote being done.

It's not a "different little world in the south":rolleyes:. It is a fact that religion often factors more in to daily life in the south, especially in small towns. It is also a fact that people WILL assume that if you join a club that supports legalizing marijuana that you smoke it. Not everyone will think that. But some will. Regardless, it's a separate issue. I KNOW that because I attended some meetings for an organization supporting the legalization of marijuana that some people assumed I smoke it. It's none of their business, but that's illegal, so it never bothered me to just change t-shirts or not wear a shirt with letters on those days. I get why they ask that. And if the same is asked of people in other politically associated groups, regardless of the majority's beliefs, I just can't see the problem. An easy solution would be to specify that letters not be worn to political rallies of any kind, from a Republican convention to a rally to legalize pot.

Ah I see. Quite frankly I think that if you're working for Joe Politician, you shouldn't be wearing letters, if you're going to see Joe Politician speak you can wear whatever the hell you want. And that it should be that way no matter what issues Joe Politician stands for.

I think it makes a difference, one makes a claim for the org, the other doesn't. Arguably individual members don't have the authority to make a claim for the org. anyway so there are probably few if any legal issues associated even if someone wanted to go after non-profit status.

NPC chapter get so many event shirts that wearing them only to greek events doesn't make sense and it is often encourage that they wear letters on campus anyway. (YMMV of course, but this is pretty standard in the NPC) Also if there's not a problem listing College Republicans as well as College Democrats on the "List of activities our members participate in" there really shouldn't be an expectation that Sally ABC isn't going to go to Joe Politician's speech on campus when one of those orgs brought him there.

/thinks this has a lot to do with how we demonize "the other side"

That is absolutely effed up. I mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago about how a certain trendy restaurant around here assumes that everyone who eats there is a liberal, and there were names of drinks etc on the menu that would offend me if I was a conservative. I will never patronize it again - not because Rush Limbaugh is my BFF but because it's a classic case of "well, the liberals can talk all the shit they want about conservatives, but if Glenn Beck says this or that he must be tarred and feathered." That sort of double standard doesn't fly with me.

Just in case you missed my point (by "just in case" I mean "it sailed over your head like a pterodactyl").

I know what your friend means. There have been times when girls around here have worn their letters and been on the news for being at controversial things. People start thinking if one girl is there wearing those letters then all the girls must support it. I think you should wear your letters if you support a local politician that was part of your sorority but only if you want to. In all fairness if a girl you shouldn't have to hide your letters because it is who you are but if people don't agree with what you support they start labeling everyone in your group as one. Sophomore year one cheerleader had been caught doing drugs so now every cheerleader must be bad and had to be tested. I don't get the no letters at bars because everyone knows you are a abc and drink but it is like saying you are two different people, one that drinks and then the other is a sweet sorority gril from next door.

See that is the thing I don't agree with. I do agree with not wearing letters at like political rallies and the like. But I never understood the no wearing letters while drinking or smoking or what have you. Depending on the size of your Greek System, people might already know you are an ABC. You should just refrain from doing stuff that you wouldn't want reflected on your organization to begin with.

Agree or disagree, people should go based on the protocol and traditions for their GLO (and, as I said before, know when something is just a chapter tradition) and not to consider what other GLOs do.

Also keep in mind that such protocol and traditions for some GLOs are intended to apply long after your collegiate years are over, when you're in environments where everyone knows you're an XYZ, and in environments when no one knows you're in XYZ.

I agree with you that people may already know who you are. Even at such a big university as Penn State, people may already know that this guy belongs to XYZ fraternity and that girl is a member of ABC sorority. I can see not wanting to get out of hand and making a fool of yourself (and possibly your organization) but, if you are out at a local eatery and they serve alcoholic beverages (think Ruby Tuesdays), I never understood why you couldn't possibly have a frozen drink or something with your dinner.

I guess the rule was made to take care of people who couldn't quite limit themselves to just one or two drinks while out in public in letters.

I know that my chapter didn't have a problem with members wearing letters to political rallies. They just could not violate HQ protocols by speaking to any reporters/camera crews what have you. We couldn't do letter writing campaigns mentioning our org. either. It's a decent balance because you can be political but you can't speak in a way that appears to be representing the group. It works out okay.

:rolleyes: Jesus, whatever happened to being pleasant?

I didn't miss your point. I explained the difference between your "point" and the one I'm making. I also explained that campuses differ. Politics might be "as important", but they are simply not the same thing as religion. I do not believe it is unreasonable for a chapter to ask that letters not be worn to political rallies/conventions/etc. Full stop.

(By your logic, smoking should be allowed in letters, too. I know plenty of people who put their nicotine fix in the top two of their priority list, especially during stressful times. Certainly higher than politics and probably religion since many people do not participate in organized religion. I don't personally care about smoking, but it's a common and widely accepted rule among sororities that drinking/smoking are not allowed in letters. I smoke. I drink. I just change shirts...even as an alum.)

No, it isn't.

We've all expressed our opinions on the original topic, but it's really dumb to actually debate the intricacies of this topic with members of other GLOs. Do whatever your GLO policies and traditions encourages. Simple and plain.

I believe you're wrong.

Well, that's it folks, apparently the thread is over. :D

But your stupidity is just beginning.

But, as I said, "it's really dumb to actually debate the intricacies of this topic with members of other GLOs. Do whatever your GLO policies and traditions encourage. Simple and plain."

In her defense, she may be talking about specifically NPC organizations. I'll admit that prior to joining GC, I had also believed it was against sorority rules for EVERY sorority (and even fraternities). That's the problem. I feel like I got so much more Greek knowledge from coming to this site and being a member for so long, regarding policies of other organizations (even checking out the beautiful badges and what they can and can't do for them-thanks to the badges thread). Don't get me wrong. My sorority taught me so much about Greek life but, I feel like as an Alumna, I have learned so much more. I would figure that's what she was talking about. That's just my thought.

Then Alumyum should specify.

Interestingly enough, I can't speak on the smoking and drinking in letter practices of other NPHC sororities (beyond what individuals and particular chapters do).