Motivate or punish?
 

My house has 20 guys, and most are pretty lazy. Our school has an annual Standards of Excellence (SOE) binder due, as I'm sure all of yours do, to prove that we do more than just party. We need a minimum if 65% to pass, which shouldn't be hard, but less guys care than are on our exec board.

Points can be gotten for SOE for things such as "Send 50% of your chapter to (school hosted presentation) on (topic)" or even for having 25% participate in an event during Greek Week. There are only 4 other guys in my house that I can rely on to show up for anything, but we're annoyed that we're the ones that always have to show up to these things, and it's sometimes not enough. They're not always exciting but someone has to go and since nobody else will, we do.

So here's my point: we're enacting a "points system" in which we give one point to every event, announced at meeting, and those 3 with the least points have to be Sober Bros (starter idea). There are problems with this, namely that we don't even party that often. I feel like there needs to be something more than that, something that'll really hit home with people, but we can't fine members. Maybe there's something so obvious I haven't thought of it yet but I need something that can be effectively enforced to "punish" members and get the needed number of bros at events.

I've seen a lot of posts regarding points systems sororities use, but fraternities are run by a completely different set of rules. Any ideas you have will be greatly appreciated.

In regards to point systems, I think they rarely work with fraternities. My colony (now chapter) had one that was already in disuse and abolished before I joined. I wasn't around though so I can't really assess why it didn't work. But if you don't have a lot of parties your punishment itsn't effective and certainly won't change their attitude. In fact, I doubt any type of point system will reinvigorate them.

I think the people in your chapter are the core issue, and a point system won't heal that. You need to motivate them, and get them excited about your fraternity again. Do you have chapter retreats? It's a great venue to get to the heart of the issue and find out a. why they're disenchanted with the chapter, b. what the chapter can do to reengage them, and c. to see who actually cares. From there you need to do two things. First, cut the dead weight. Get rid of the guys that are pulling you down, this isn't about "feelings" this is about the life of your chapter - get rid of them, they're poison to the rest of the membership. Second, start enacting the changes you need to reengage the remaining members.

How is your chapter's committee system? My chapter is similarly sized, so almost every member is a committee chairman. This is a great way to get these men actively involved in your chapter. Have the Vice President (or whatever corresponding internal officer you have) chair weekly meeting of all the committee chairman where they discuss the ideas they have for their committees and work with each other to make their events and projects successful.

Also, recruitment. Are you working to actively recruit better guys? It will likely happen that those four guys will do all of the recruitment work. Don't let them get upset by this, its the 80-20 rule at work (80% of the work is done by 20% of the members, a typical formula for most organizations, greek and otherwise), and there's not too much you can do to avoid that. Just be confident that your active motivated members are recruiting men like themselves who will work for your chapter.

Don't forget, you need to motivate your members enough to actually get them to do these things, so work on that first.

I'd love to cut the dead weight but if we did, we probably wouldn't even have 10 guys and we need 20 to be recognized by the school. I like the idea of the retreat to assess "why?" because I know in order to solve a problem, you have to understand its source. With three weeks left in the semester, however, there's not time for a retreat so while I'll definitely consider it for next semester, I am still looking for something more lasting and more immediate...

The problem you're having isn't that brothers aren't showing up, it's that brothers have no reason to show up to anything. You said it yourself, you don't party that much.

Why on earth would anyone show up to some SoE bs, especially if they get no benefit. And you can spare all that PC horseshit about how fraternities aren't just about partying. No, they're not. But that will ALWAYS be one of the main reasons people join and it always has been.

If you can't even get together on your own to knock a few back, then why on earth SHOULD anyone feel bad for not doing community service or whatever?

One more thing, if you go ahead with point system, since that something sororities do, you will loose potential members.

It seems to me that you're saying that without partying, people have no incentive to do anything. Being a member of a fraternity enables you to certain privileges, but it also comes with certain responsibilities. SOE, BS though it may often be, is not optional and Fraternity is an obligation. Since my guys obviously don't feel the need naturally, lighting a little fire under them couldn't really hurt. It'll definitely test their commitment and if they want to drop, I guess it's not the end of the world; we'll get more in the fall.

To use parties as the only incentive gives, in my opinion, the wrong impression of what we stand for. I'm set on the "points" idea, regardless of potential negative side effects while people get used to it, because I feel like it's for the best in the long run. I'm wondering whether any chapters have incentives/punishments that are effective other than fines and social probation?

I think what RU OX Alum means is that parties is really the base level of fraternal involvement. I'm not talking about big events either, hanging our in a party setting with your brothers is a pretty standard - and it doesn't compromise "what we stand for." So if your chapter isn't doing the basic stuff you probably aren't doing much else of anything. If you want an incentive for your members try giving them something to do in the chapter. You need to go back to the core and figure out why they joined, and what hasn't lived up to their expectation.

If you're set on doing something we've told you doesn't work go for it, but don't ask for advice if you're not going to consider it.

Also, fines work; I hate it when chapter's don't fine.

I wish we could fine but we aren't allowed. I don't know who set this rule but it can't be easily changed, if at all. Definitely a shame.

The reason our social schedule is lacking is because it's the one thing we have to hold over people. We don't typically have parties unless we (the execs) feel that the house earned it, which only requires getting 50% of the house to 2 events a week. When people aren't willing to put in that little effort, there's no reason they should get to party.

Doling out responsibility (in response to your suggestion of giving people something to do) won't help either because 3 of our execs don't even do the job they're required to do and NOBODY else wants to fill them.

It's not that I don't value other opinions, I guess I'm just realizing I may be fighting a battle that can't be won. If partying isn't enough to get people going, I don't know what is. I don't believe the 80-20 Rule has to be the case but after two years of dealing with apathy, my "optimism" seems more like unrealistic expectations but I don't want to give up on these guys. Is it so wrong to hold people to a higher standard than they hold themselves?

I liked the idea of finding out why people have become disheartened in order to get them re-motivated. Probably the best idea in here so thank you for that, Gusteau. Is it pushing it to still want to have a back-up plan? I find it hard to believe one idea alone will solve all our problems. After all, "the best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas."

True, but if the responsibilities outweigh the priveledges, it becomes a total waste of time. Which is why your brothers aren't showing up when you want them to. Basically, if I were your brother, what I would basically tell, if I could even be bothered, is that if I'm not cool enough for the friday night party (you're college and it's friday night, if you're not partying something is wrong with you) then I'm not cool enough to go with you to SoE.

we've had this problem too. you cant force brothers who dont want to participate to participate. The best way to cure this apathy is to recruit. with the semester ending there's not much you can do now, but if you and the other 'work horses' start planning fall recruitment, you have the potential to take in a huge class. then from that class say you get 5 more brothers willing to work. ideally the plan is that through quantity, you can get quality brothers and eventually start trimming the fat.

I think you and your Exec has an us against them mentality that's only compounding the issue. You need to work with them to find a solution that serves both parties. A compromise is going to involve sacrifices from both sides, so be prepared for that. The central theme of the discussion should be why each of you joined your chapter and how you can get that out of your chapter again.

Is the fines thing an inter/national ruling? If so that sucks, if its a chapter by-law that still sucks because I can't imagine anyone in your chapter voting for it. Just curious.

ETA: Rufio and I posted at the same time, but he's also correct. Recruit, recruit, recruit!

gusteau, i dont know why, but not many DU chapters at least in the province that sandiego_DUde and I are from, dont fine.

sandiego_DUde,
try utilizing you're newly initiated brothers as work horses. many of them should still be 'riding the high' after pledging and are probably more than willing to work. i've seen brothers who were lay abouts do complete 180s when younger members start gaining status over them.

I'd make a guess it has something to do with this attitude:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiego_DUde (Post 1924717) The reason our social schedule is lacking is because it's the one thing we have to hold over people. We don't typically have parties unless we (the execs) feel that the house earned it, which only requires getting 50% of the house to 2 events a week. When people aren't willing to put in that little effort, there's no reason they should get to party.

You need balance between responsibility and fun. You need the social side to foster comraderie and a sense of in-it-togetherness. If it's all obligation, it's not worth the effort to participate.

Gusteau (and the others) are right -- you've created an us-against-them dynamic between the exec board and the chapter. To be honest, I'd resent the hell out of it if I were on the receiving end of it.

Very interesting...

And you're very right, younger members can revitalize a chapter if they have the right guidance and encouragement.

We didn't actually get a pledge class this spring, which definitely disappointed a lot of guys. I think it's fair to say that us "workhorses" are the ones who see that this is time to work harder, not give up. Though it's been explained, I'm not sure everyone understands that there are certain minimum standards in order for us to keep our charter, even when things look bleak - especially at such a time, really.

A lot of hope is put into each rush, but usually too much: people expect that the new guys will take over each semester and use it as an excuse to give up, as though they've "done their time" now that they're initiated. Even if people are, for any reason, filled with this newfound drive to fulfill their fraternal expectations (to which they are sworn by oath), what's to keep them from giving up when faced with others' apathy? Many of us "workhorses" are third years and we want to leave something in place for when we graduate next year, so that we don't leave with "Good luck" but with "You know what to do and I believe in you." It scares me to think what will happen when we go since so many new members' drives are dampened by the pessimism of the actives above them and they feel that it's ok to give up since so many others have. There aren't currently enough younger guys who want to learn how to replace us and you can't teach what someone doesn't want to learn.

I think you need to seek the guidance of your International Staff.

If the majority of your members think like that, then you're bidding the wrong people. Usually it's the other way around - there are guys that you have to pull teeth to get them OUT of exec board positions.

Talk with your nationals and your school, tell your school you are destroying the fraternity to save it (sororities do this all the time and don't get derecognized), and terminate the dickwads. Seriously. They're destroying the group internally and externally. BAG THEM. NOW.

got it! add $50 to dues at the beginning of the semester and everyone gets $1 back per "point." which events get points would be agreed upon weekly at meeting. this helps the house because i doubt ANYONE will get all $50 back, it's positive reinforcement instead of punishment, it doesn't affect the partying situation whatsoever... list goes on but you get it. i feel like this is exactly what i was looking for.

everyone has the same opportunity to get their money back and going to events is seen as a positive thing, rather than charging those who didn't show up. although it'll take some convincing to get the house to go for it, it's practically a no-lose situation: those who don't earn enough back still contribute to the house, just in a different way.

i appreciate the help from all above posters and i will continue to look for the root of the apathy but, as i'm sure you know, competition makes us all better and every house could use more money. i'll post again at the end of the fall semester regarding the effectiveness of this idea.

PS- didn't see there was a second page before posting the immediately prior (5 minutes) post. i had no idea you could do that so i'll definitely talk to internationals and my school to see what we can do about kicking guys out without losing campus recognition. thanks for the support.

You have a good chance of people just refusing to pay.

...what i want to know is why these members have NOT quit yet

if they get to vote on whether or not their dues are raised by $50, for no other compelling reason than to make them work to get it back, i highly doubt they will vote in your favor. is there any way exec can vote on this without the rest of your chapter's input?

Umm, yeah. This is an awful idea.

Also, by not having parties unless the brothers "earn" it, you are not only hurting your brotherhood, but your reputation on campus as well. No one wants to join a group that appears to be all work and no play. You will be less likely to get pledges PERIOD, and the ones you do get will be more likely to be those who just want to join a fraternity to wear letters...not the kind of members you need or want.

We have the lowest dues of any house on campus, $500/semester and are aware of what every other house pays. We used to pay only $450 and the entire house voted a year ago to raise it $50 SIMPLY so we'd have more money. I can see this passing since we'd still be the lowest priced house, which is a big deal to lots of guys for some reason. Additionally, lots of guys talk about what they'd do if we had more money... we would.

AND, as SusySorostitute asked, "Why have these members not quit yet?" That's a good question, albeit one I cannot currently answer. At the very least, the proposition will open up a much-needed discussion and even if the most of the house doesn't want it to pass, I can easily persuade the execs to vote to pass it (I'm not exec so there would be at least 9/20 votes for it to pass when it is presented to the house). In response to your other question, I don't know whether they can pass something after the house voted against it. I kinda hope not.

Lastly, as mentioned above in my plan, partying will not be affected (now). In all fairness, I don't believe sororities are allowed to host parties so unless I'm wrong, I'm not understanding your stance on it. I know on my campus, every sorority has a certain number of community service hours required per member. Feel free to disagree but reputation is built (positively) by doing community service with sororities, in which they see a better side of us and are in a non-threatening situation.

What do sororities' requirements or their ability to throw parties have to do with ANYTHING? And you said:

I don't get it - do you see parties as a threatening situation? That's a whole lot of effed up thinking right there.

And I don't care how much the sororities say "oh, DU is such a great group, they showed up to help us at our cat-grooming philanthropy" to their guy friends - the guy friends' next question is going to be "what is their social schedule like?" You can be the darling of your HQ, the sororities and the administration, but if the GUYS RUSHING don't see that they will get something from membership in your group as well as giving something back, they're not going to join.

well first of all, sororities have mixers/swaps/socials (parties with fraternities), i'm assuming you don't have those? secondly, is doing community service with sororities truly how reputation on your campus is built? maybe you need to build up stronger sorority connections because that's clearly not working for you (fun social events may even be a way to do this!). also, i believe it is easier for girls in general to get into other fraternity parties. sororities do not really need to have their own parties in order to have fun and something to be proud of. for fraternities, that's not so much the case. a lot of your reputation and your appeal to rushes is going to be on your parties. whether or not that's fair is off the table. honestly, you are starting to come off to me as an all-work-and-no-play power-tripper. you need to give these men a reason to want to be involved.

I'm not at all saying my house is perfect; to the contrary, that's why I'm here. However, while I understand the outside reflection "not partying" gives off, and to be clear on that term we were on social probation all of last semester and we don't party as often as some guys would like but still at least 2x a month. Anyway, if people act like children, is there any reason they shouldn't be treated as such? Sad that in college that's my outlook, I know, but if we don't get our work done, it doesn't matter how much we party now if we lose our charter later. 33girl, you and I may not agree ever on certain things but please trust I'm trying to show you my side and see yours as well.

To tie up the partying issue, I'm sorry if I offended you but I felt as though it was a situation in which you were talking about something you couldn't understand, not being in a fraternity. I may have been too presumptuous and I'm sorry. No I don't see parties as threatening situations but you know, with the rumors/reality of what happens at SOME parties, it's understandable that people would often feel more at ease under other circumstances. From experience, I can tell you we've done quite well some semesters despite a lack of partying (14 man pledge class, twice). My experiences probably differ from yours but that's where I'm coming from.

The guys we don't want are the ones who only want to party anyway. If that's all we show them and that's what interests them, they'll join for the wrong reasons. It's not as popular since it's new but we do Principles Based Rushing, in which we show guys what we're about up front so we both have realistic expectations. We also are both more pleased with the outcome because nobody had false hopes. Obviously we still like to party, but within reason. Nobody wants to join an organization that's all work and no play, but we don't want an organization that's all play and no work. In fact, that's what we have now.

Perhaps I haven't successfully communicated my intentions. I'm sorry that's the impression you got; I want the best for my guys in both the short-term and long-term and I understand the balance of work and play.

You're right, Susy, we don't have socials or formal, which sucks, so we work with what we have. I don't personally see how building your reputation - at least somewhat - by doing community service is a bad thing. Sure we're known as the "good guys" on campus and we all know what they say about good guys, but I'd rather people think that of me than other things. And yes, at my school we're trying to send the Greek system in a new direction. After the drug bust, the entire Greek system has suffered and we've all had to change a lot to keep afloat. Community service has become an almost "popular" thing.

i'm not saying it should be all play and no work by any means... but as of now your org seems to be all work and no play. considering you did not get any new pledges this semester, you may want to consider the appeal that "play" has to rushees and the image you are projecting to your campus. also consider the role that having fun, enjoying, and feeling proud of your fraternity may play in your actives' desire to get involved in the "work" aspect. if you want to discount a girl's opinion because i couldn't possibly understand, fine, but from what i gather from the guys i know in (thriving) fraternities, this is important to them too.

So... do I have this right? There was a drug bust at your school, lots of fraternities were put on probation (or just yours?) Now morale is low because all the former partiers are suffering from the restrictions. The way I see it you have two options. Drop the guys that don't fit into the direction you are trying to take your fraternity, or drop the "I'm the mom and get to decide who deserves what" attitude.

Haha people always call me "the Mom of the house, but the guy version."

My house was actually not put on probation for that but for other reasons. There are other circumstances that led to a bad rush, honestly not related to partying. It's easiest to sum it up as most of us weren't properly prepared for rush. Hope we learned from that mistake...

Dropping guys should be a last resort because I believe in giving everyone a chance, but I agree sometimes some people run out of chances and need to go. I'm not the only guy who makes decisions regarding stuff like this, though I know I may have accidentally given off that impression. I'm a go-getter in the house and some guys (the execs) appreciate that I'm always willing to help but others feel that I can pick up their slack and take advantage of my dedication. More often than not, I will do whatever is needed and I honestly don't mind. Still, the dad in me wants to help others get the chance to build their resume and build skills that will help them after college. After all, I feel like that's the main purpose of Greek Life.

If all this is the case, then market yourself as a service fraternity, not a social one. Get rid of your house (if you have one), lower your local dues (which should be rock bottom anyway, since you don't have mixers or formals), make all events alcohol free and let it be known that philanthropy is your #1 priority. Then you won't end up with a bunch of guys who are disappointed because they thought they were joining a social organization.

I'm trying to ask as politely as possible why you are riding the idea of social life so hard? We are still a social fraternity, we just don't have the same status as some of the houses on campus with 100+ members. Even social fraternities are required to do service. We're not a academic fraternity simply because we go to school. What you're telling me to do is give up, which is exactly what I'm not about to do. It won't be easy but I intend to leave my house better than I found it. What can I say, I like a challenge. If I fail, I'll have to deal with that on my own, I don't need haters telling me "no."

hey PM me, ASU went through the same exact situation you guys are going through. I know asu and sdsu are really close, we'd love to help out. our now defunct NAU chapter used to come down and help us through our problems and we'd love to continue that tradition.

gotcha. thank you.

GOOD LORD.

No one told you to give up and no one's being a "hater" because they gave their opinion.

Take off the hair shirt, it is very unattractive.

So, I'm getting my Masters degree in Organizational Behavior with a focus specifically on "motivation".

There was this wonderful study (I'll post it if I can find it - for now though I will just paraphrase it). Where they found people working for a company that manufactured steel components to large scale vehicles and sea-craft. One of the most tedious and difficult jobs in the plant was "pre-production". Basically people who's responsibility it was to either tighten thousands of bolts a day or move large sheets of metal from one side of the warehouse to another.

So the experiment began:

1. The first group was given various criteria on which their efficiency would be tested. They were told that if the performance indicators revealed an increase in productivity they would receive cash bonuses. They were also told that anyone who failed to meet minimum expectations would immediately lose the free lunch that the factory provided.

2. The second group was treated very differently. No punishments or rewards, but instead they informed the pre-production workers on exactly what part of each vehicle they were working on was. Many had never known what exactly their work was, and others were surprised to see how important their job was to the successful completion of each project. Factory workers from other parts of the line came and thanked the pre-production workers for their work, and let them know how much they appreciated the quality jobs they did. Also, several factory managers invited the pre-production workers into a special meeting with high level executives and asked for advice on how to make the production process easier and more efficient. After the meeting was over the upper-level managers thanked the workers and encouraged them to call if they had any more ideas about making the production process easier.

The end result? The first group almost all received the bonuses. However they're overall production level decreased over time. As they frantically worked to try and make their performance indicators as inflated as possible they managed to cut many corners and ultimately deliver mediocre work. Also, many workers demanded increased bonuses as time passed.

The second group finished with outstanding results producing almost twice what the first group did. New ideas circulated, and many workers were promoted from within the company.

Not only that, but when surveyed, the second group reported significantly higher job satisfaction scores, and experienced much less turnover. Best of all? Almost no money was spent on the second group.

Try to think of this when you are working on ways to motivate your brothers. Educate them on your Fraternity's goals, ask them what they think the Fraternity should be doing, and try to work with them to make the Fraternity better in their way (I guarantee they will start wanting to return the favor). You'd be surprised how many of your brothers will appreciate you asking them for their advice.