States that don't have chapters
 

Only 9 states don't have chapters. California only has six. We need more chapters in the Pacific and in states like Arizona.

We have two here in Colorado. I believe there was once four.

Currently at:
Colorado State -Fort Collins, CO
School of Mines -Golden, CO

I believe there once was chapters at University of Colorado - Boulder, CO (campus doesn't recognized greek life) and one in Denver somewhere.

Pardon the crash, but Boulder definitely recognizes Greek life and has quite a large Greek community. I don't know anything about ATO @ CU, but you really shouldn't make huge assumptions like that.

While thebigghost is not entirely correct, Boulder actually does not recognize its IFC Fraternities because they refused to sign a university agreement.

http://www.colorado.edu/greeks/office/community.html

Oh, insert foot in mouth! Sorry, I stand corrected.

Thank you! :)


Exactly. Our school isn't affiliated with IFC or any of the Fraternities, but is definitely a part of the Sororities. Our greek system is larger than most people think it is...

I don't know how many "pacific" chapters you've visited of any fraternity, but they are just not the same. Greek life in a lot of places in those regions is not strong. Many of those chapters don't care much about the ritual. I would prefer not to expand strongly in those directions. Not when there is so much other fertile territory elsewhere. Especially in places we've had chapters before.

Please speak for your fraternity only.

This is in the ATO section of the forum, so... what's the issue?

This is also a public forum, meaning all threads are visible to everyone.

Unless you are a member of other organizations and have experienced their rituals, you cannot say that "west coast chapters of any fraternity" don't take things seriously.

Greek life in the west sucks. It's a different thing completely. Unless you've spent some time around it in the south or on the east cost and to a lesser extent some places in the central US, you really don't understand what I'm saying.

In any case, this is an ATO asking about expansion in a geographic area where most locations are very weak. Nationals will try to keep things geographically balanced to some degree, but ultimately it's a business. You want big strong stable chapters with higher percentages of alumni that stay involved, preferably from schools where they have a better chance at doing well in life.

Why would I support going to a school with flat to declining recruiting numbers that support average chapters of 30 guys? Especially when I can go a dozen other places that will jump quickly to 70-90 guys and have strong regional alumni support.

Not the case in my organization, so again, speak for your fraternity only.

Again, if I'm speaking in the forum dedicated to my organization, then I am giving my experienced and knowledgeable opinion about and from the perspective of my organization. That should be the natural assumption based on WHERE this post is.

And WHERE the post is = public message board.

I think I might have picked up on a few things during my 8 years on this board. Don't speak definitively on organizations other than your own and you'll be fine. Simple as that.

And if he doesn't, then you, too, will be fine. Let it go. :)

Look. This particular section of the forum is about ATO ONLY. In posting in this location, by definition I'm talking about only my organization. Why are you commenting on things that don't involve your organization? I haven't strayed into your organization's area to comment on your internal factors.

I've been involved with fraternities all over the country for more than half as long as yours has existed. I didn't mention your org or say anything directly disrespectful about you or it. I think I'm entitled to my opinion and you're welcome to disagree with it.

If you'd care to continue that conversation, I'd prefer you do so by private message.

Please explain how the bold pertains only to ATO.

A KKG, a Tri Delta, and a Delta Chi have also posted in this thread. These are PUBLIC forums. Anyone can post in them. If you want to have a conversation with brothers only, don't have it here.

I'm sorry, but you're NOT talking about your organization only when you say things like the following:

"Greek life" doesn't = ATO.

jinx, buy me a coke.

I fully understand any new post from any sub-forum will show on the front page as a new post. I fully understand anyone can see or post in any thread. I know the posts here are not private. I also know they are in a sub-forum specifically about ATO. Anything I post here is by definition by and for ATO. There's nothing saying someone from another org should not post here, but if you read info here the natural assumption should be that it is NOT about your organization.

This thread is talking about why we (ATO) are apparently lacking in our expansion efforts on the west coast. I'm not attempting to be politically correct. I am honestly expressing feelings of a lot of people and leaders within ATO. If Kappa, DChi, ODPhi and whomever else have SEC quality chapters in California, then good for them. That's not my business or my problem. OUR assessment of the strength of Greek life and potential success of individual chapters within that region will dictate how hard we want to go at that region. We do try to maintain geographic balance, for our own reasons, but we won't do so at the cost of bad decisions.

I appreciate some of you with long experience on GC. I know I've only been here a short time. Still, I've been involved with fraternities all over the country for nearly 20 years. I have a great deal of experience in some specific areas and more general knowledge in others. I think I have quite a bit to contribute to serious discussion of legitimate issues. While I fully intend to be respectful in that discourse, I'm not a person to mince words and mislead people to massage personal feelings.

We've all been greek for at least a little while. We should all have a thick skin by now. If I unintentionally disrespect you or your organization directly, then by all means I would expect you to square me up by PM & I would apologize. But if we're going to hang on every little word trying to find fault and insult rather than become better informed, then that's a waste everyone's time.

LOL at "Greek life in the west sucks" = "Unintentionally disrespecting" or "Not having SEC quality chapters."

So, it's cool for you to say "Greek life in the west sucks" because you're just trying to better inform us, but if anyone disagrees they should PM you politely.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Nope. You can disagree with me in public all you want. I'm absolutely fine with that.

I'll stand up for my opinions and have an open honest debate about any of them. If I'm proved wrong then I'm more than happy to say so and change my opinion. However, I don't like people telling me I'm not entitled to my opinion or not allowed to express it. I'm fine with being respectful, I'm not fine with being silenced.

If someone feels disrespected, that's almost certainly a misunderstanding I'm happy to correct if they'll just talk to me about it. If someone wants to argue or otherwise tell me to keep my opinion to myself, then that's probably best dealt with by PM.

Lol.

Not if you say "any fraternity" and talk about Greek life in general. I'm really not seeing why this seems to be such a hard concept for you to grasp.

So the SEC is the only gauge of quality? That's a rather impoverished view, it seems to me. But whatever you think works for you.

That's a two-way street you know. People are reading what you actually said and assuming you meant what you actually said.

Look... for anyone that clicked on a recent post and failed to see it was in a forum labeled ATO, then mistakenly made the assumption I was talking about them or their organization, I apologize. I meant no disrespect.

When posting in a forum labeled ATO, my natural assumption would be that's an area for conversations either between ATOs or about ATO as an organization. I can't imagine what would lead to any other conclusion. If I'm wrong about that, I'll go post a question about ATO in the TKE section and see if a Delta Chi can answer it for me.

There's nothing wrong with non-ATOs reading or posting in the ATO section. I'm always open to outside insight on our operations. I'm also curious at times, as I'm sure others are, what the trends, attitudes, and operations of other organizations look like. That doesn't mean I read their conversation as if it applies to me, nor that I interject at the slightest possibility anything they say may not paint my org as perfect. They are entitled to their opinion.

And just to clarify my opinion...

I'm an ATO alumnus. I have a certain amount of experience and reputation within my organization. But, I'm just stating my opinion.

This thread asks if ATO should expand aggressively on the west coast. I would personally say no.

I believe, most greek systems in the far west are weak. There's nothing wrong with the national organizations or people from those areas. Both thrive in other locations.

There are problems in any chapter/location/org. There are some problems we can deal with, some that are bad business, and some (based on our ritual an objectives) that are more problematic. Some of those key issues tend to occur at a higher rate in certain geographic areas. I can't tell you why. I don't know if it's cultural, support/policy trends by universities in those areas, or any number or combination of other factors. What matters is its a bad use of our resources to go into those areas when better alternatives are available.

I went to school in Texas. I used SEC as an example because its a stereotype. There are many other locations outside the south with superb greek systems that are also a good fit for us. Those are the model we want all our chapters reaching. We're going to go to places with the best potential, as we interpret it (which is probably different than others would). Right now, most of the west coast has a very low density of places that fit that model for us, in my opinion.

If you're insulted by that, I'm sorry. If you don't agree, tell me how you have valid opinion of where ATO should expand or why. If you want to have a discussion of the criteria on which I'm forming that opinion, I can do that with some limits. Other than that, I don't see what anyone's problem is.

It's insulting to all of us that I should have to be so politically correct that I cannot express a basis for my opinions without people taking it personally. We're adults here. Hopefully with some professionalism. We can endure criticism without being offended. You don't have to agree, but if you think I shouldn't be able to have the conversation then you're in the wrong country.

Sorry for the long response.

QFP

No one has said "don't post." Because all threads can be viewed by EVERYONE, though, it's not unreasonable for non-ATOs to request that information that is available on the site accurate.

If you want to say "All of the west coast chapters that I've worked with aren't as strong as their southern counterparts," so be it. If you want to say "The ATO chapters on the west coast aren't thriving like our northern chapters," fine. You cannot say "All fraternities suck and don't follow ritual by virtue of them existing on the west coast" and expect people to pass that off as opinion.

And speaking of being professional -- You've had four regular posters who understand the dynamics of this board tell you the same thing, yet you refuse to acknowledge that what we're saying has merit. Way to stay classy. Just remember -- you're not the only one who's an alum with Greek life experience.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about southern versus not southern. I shouldn't have used SEC as an example. I think that was misleading of what I'm trying to express as the type of chapter/environment we/I see as our model.

I DO think what I'm saying is accurate.

I understand what you're saying - if I say west coast greek systems suck then I'm implying your chapters (and mine) in those states suck.

I get that if you read what I wrote out of context that you can interpret it that way. The key contextual difference is that it's posted in an ATO area.

It doesn't matter if it's available to everyone. What matters is it's an opinion about what works best for ATO only.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but... All our orgs exist for some higher purpose in our rituals. Undergrads are just in training to become tools for that change the world mission as alumni - just like pledgeship is training to be an active. Rush is to evaluate what a potential member offers & selectively pick what's best for OUR objectives. Picking where to expand is really the same as rush on a national fraternity level; developing and sustaining a chapter is like pledgeship.

If some hypothetical fraternity had a ritual about supporting illegal immigrants, I'm sure the southwest border would be superb territory for them.

My fraternity has a VERY Christianity based objective. It doesn't require members to be Christians, but they aren't going to mesh well with our purpose unless they strongly subscribe to a Jedeo-christian belief system.

We don't exactly look at stats on church attendance of demographics most likely to go greek. That's a huge oversimplification. But, you can imagine a region with less would statistically tend to feed chapters that drift from our ritual & thereby require a lot of extra resources for less pay off toward our mission.

From our perspective, I think you can see where places like Tennessee or Texas might provide a better foundation than a lot of California.

If you look at our map, you'll also see some chapters that seem to completely defy what I just said - places like Berkley.

We're supposed to be spreading this belief system out there to the world. There's a couple philosophies on how to do that. We can go where we can be strong to maximize our resources and produce the most alumni strongly dedicated to our purpose, &/or we can cast a line into the abyss with a few chapters. It's like pastors here versus missionaries overseas. Both concepts co-exists. You just have to make a judgment on the best mix between the two.

That's one aspect. I could talk about a few others that are important. None of them support very much on the West Coast versus dozens of other alternatives.

So, for us, west coast greek systems suck. I don't think they have enough to offer us. I'm saying that with fairly good knowledge about the region and my organization. Maybe you have excellent chapters out there, and good for you if you do. I don't care. It doesn't have anything to do with us - just like everything I've said doesn't have anything to do with your org. Which is why it's in an ATO section and not a general section.

Translated: For anyone who was stupid enough to think that when I said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2027910) I don't know how many "pacific" chapters you've visited of any fraternity, but they are just not the same. Greek life in a lot of places in those regions is not strong . . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2029697) Greek life in the west sucks.

I was actually talking about Greek life in the west and any fraternities instead of ATO only, I'm sorry you failed to understand.

You're digging your hole deeper with your non-apology, and making a much bigger deal of what could have been handled with a simple "oops."

Your natural assumption would be incorrect, and the reality of the dynamics of this board would lead to a different conclusion. Many if not most regular GCers access the boards through the "New Posts" page. They scroll down and look at the threads, clicking on those that interest them, often paying little if any attention to which forum the thread is in. May sound crazy, but that's the reality here.

This is you not getting it. At all. It's not a matter of people taking your opinions personally. Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine by me. And it's certainly not a matter of expecting political correctness. And it's certainly not about freedom of speech. Nobody is asking you to sit there and listen to us badmouth the United States of America, Otter.

And we, who have been around GC a lot longer than you have, are trying to tell you that that "key contextual difference" isn't nearly as key as you seem to think. I can understand why you would think it is, but in reality, it's just not.

I am interested to know your thoughts on the Berkeley ATO chapter, specifically, being relatively familiar with the area and campus, as well as knowing a few alumni well. (I am assuming "Berkley" meant UC Berkeley since you mentioned CA in the sentence before.)

Please PM me if you are not comfortable posting your thoughts here.

That would be the "New Posts" page that lists the sub-section on the right and then after clicking the thread lists the sub-section on top?

They don't pay attention to which forum the thread is in, so they don't realize a conversation isn't about them before they start talking... how is that my fault?

In all seriousness, what's the point of having different sections at all?

nice ref. :)

Seriously though... that's social norming. I have GC regulars telling me: I shouldn't have a conversation about anything broader than my org (or possibly song identification), and sub-section labels are to be disregarded in all cases.

If I accept that, it puts some limits on what I can talk about. In this case, when talking about my org's expansion. I can tell you where we should go for whatever positive reasons, but I can't cite any negative reasons for not going to another region (even though that was specifically the question). If I do, I'm automatically talking about every chapter of XYZ and ABC, and I'm going to be attacked.

That limitation devalues the worth of a place like this, for no purpose at all. I think it's wrong, and I'm not going to do it.

I get what you're saying, and that's highly unfortunate.

I would never post in another org's section unless it was appropriate to the conversation AND I was giving outside perspective on what I always assume is their internal discussion.

Maybe I'll make a mistake from time to time, but I can try to respect another org's space the same way I expect them to respect mine.

I will PM you. I don't, within reason, mind discussing a chapter in public, but only if they're here to defend themselves.

Your ability to understand the issue is seriously lacking.


Nope, not what people are telling you. But if you're going to say something like "Greek life in X location sucks" be prepared to get flack no matter where you say it. It's not because people are "insulted" it's because they think you're wrong. There's a difference.

Strawman.

Still a strawman. Since no one's saying that, feel free to fight against it with your dying breath.

We provided an outside perspective on your stupid comment.

Public message board =/= ATO space. ATO space = ATO message board, ATO email listserve, or ATO chapter meetings.

I fully understand how the site works. It's not exactly my first time on a forum.

We're just spinning around here and it's starting to piss me off. I didn't come here as a troll trying to get a rise out of you. I'm trying to have a serious conversation about legitimate issues that I know a little bit about. If we disagree, that's fine and we can have a reasonable discussion in the right place.

I have apologized I think five times for any possibility of anyone being remotely offended by my statements. While I still think you are wrong, my apology is sincere.

I do not withdraw those statements. I've tried to clarify them to eliminate misunderstanding. If you fail to see my perspective, then I'm sorry for the unintended offense. If you do understand my perspective and are still offended, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Just so we're clear, if I had wanted to have a private conversation between ATOs only, I would have done so in a place appropriate to that. I am perfectly willing to have this conversation in the public eye. However, if I had wanted to have a conversation about the general greek community with primarily non-ATOs, I would have posted that in a more general section. My comments are where they are for a reason.

Fundamentally though, I have to ask... what is the purpose of different sections within the forum? That's not rhetorical. I actually want to hear what you think their purpose is.

No one's offended, they just think your'e stupid for making blanket statements. Thus the fact that you're "apologizing for causing offense" which is the half-ass of all apologies, yet "standing by your words" only means we continue to think you're dumb for making blanket statements.

So, no, I really do doubt that you actually "get" what everyone else is saying.

Organization. They're there to organize the threads, so that threads on particular topics or sbjects of interest will be in forums appropriate to that topic or subject. They're not there to limit who should or shouldn't post. At least that's how I've seen it work in almost 9 years posting here.

There's really no need to get pissed off -- all anyone is trying to do is to explain the dynamics of this site, which can be different from the dynamics of other sites.

I can understand why you would say:

Quote:

I would never post in another org's section unless it was appropriate to the conversation AND I was giving outside perspective on what I always assume is their internal discussion.

All we are are trying to say is that, as odd as it may seem to someone new, that's not how things typically work here. We tend to assume it's not an internal discussion unless it's explicitly stated or it's clear from the context otherwise. People post in forums of other orgs all the time without giving it a second thought, and have done so as long as I've been posting here. To be honest, this may not be as noticeable in the ATO forum because there haven't been that many ATOs here, so this forum isn't as active as some others.

As a rule, if a thread is for members only it will say so, either in the opening post or in the title. Also as a general rule, if a conversation is clearly more specific to a particular organization, others still will post in it if they have something to add (or ask) but will start by saying they're "crashing" (like LucyKKG did in this thread) or "lane swerving." But the bottom line is that pretty much anyone will feel free to post in any thread in any forum unless the specific thread says otherwise. That's why people often pay no attention to the forum a thread is in when they click on "New Posts" -- it usually doesn't matter because people post in each others' forums all the time. (And if it's clear the poster is out of his element -- like an old NIC fraternity alum trying to explain how NIC recruitment or NPHC intake works -- it will be suggested to him that he "stay in his lane.")

All of this is why, when blanket statements about fraternities or Greek life in general are made in a group-specific forum, most regular GCers (1) will not interpret the statement as organization specific and (2) will feel free to comment.

And one more time: Nobody is telling you that you

Quote:

shouldn't have a conversation about anything broader than [your] org (or possibly song identification)

What people are telling you is that even if you are in a group-specific forum, if you make blanket statements like

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2027910) I don't know how many "pacific" chapters you've visited of any fraternity, but they are just not the same. Greek life in a lot of places in those regions is not strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2029697) Greek life in the west sucks.

people are going to assume you meant what you said and you are talking about all fraternities/Greek life in general, not just about your own organization. And they'll call you on it if they think it's an overgeneralization or just plain wrong.

And glad you liked the Otter reference. One of my favorites.

I've looked around other org's sections. Would it surprise you that there are in fact several threads where people believed they were having a conversation (while knowingly in public view) intended for a more limited audience based on the org sub-category they were posting it in?

The organization/structure you're referring to doesn't exist if people go from "new posts" to commenting without thinking in between. The responses won't fit the questions and the resulting threads won't fit the categories. The clear intent, by virtue of there being sub-sections at all, is for the posts there to be about that subject. In the case of orgs, that means about that org only.

I don't accept explanations like, 'everyone's doing it,' 'that's how it's done here,' 'that's the dynamic of this site,' etc. I get what you're saying, but I've heard all those in defense to stuff like hazing too. It doesn't make it the right answer.

If this were a chapter talking to me about hazing, I'd be saying you can't let how things have been determine how things will be. It's exactly the people who have been around that have the most responsibility to stand up and change the paradigm.

As far as broad statements... there's nothing wrong with them as long as the reader takes them for what they're worth.

If you're an active in an org during recruitment and think someone is a terrible candidate, then you have every right to say that person sucks. Of course you need to back it up when challenged. That's org standards and personal opinion.

If that person goes on to join another org, someone might interpret an implication that the other org sucks. Regardless, that doesn't give the other org/person a place to tell you your opinion of this person from the perspective of your org is wrong.

I'm stating my opinion, from my knowledge/experience, from my the perspective/standards of my org, of a broad situation. And specifically as justification for why we don't want to do something that would be bad for us. At no point is there any implication if it would be good or bad for any other org. Any reader should understand at least the concept of those conditions implicitly & evaluate content accordingly.

And, point of information. Even now no one has challenged my premise that west coast greek systems suck. I have only been cited specific exceptions and told not to make broad statements. No one has actually attempted to defend west coast greek systems versus other regions. Until someone convinces me to the contrary, that's still going to be my opinion.

http://wiki.devicerandom.org/images/...iness_bush.jpg

Dude, did you really honestly just compare hazing to the way people post on a message board?? Punxsatawney Phil conjured up this early spring just for you. Get out and enjoy the sun.

We had another similarly LOFLWAFFL comparison on here, something referencing the Holocaust, but I can't remember what it was.

It's still in the 60s. I'm waiting another month before I hit the lake. :)

Seriously though, hazing isn't the worst thing in the world, trust me. 95% of it is about as serious as under-age drinking. That's a long way from the holocaust, so relax with your shock.

I used an exaggerated and obvious example of something we all agree is wrong, & common excuses we've all heard for not changing the behavior. (I'm sorry if that's too broad a statement. I can say all ATOs if it makes anyone feel more comfortable).

All logic says we SHOULD be recognizing sub-sections and interpreting content accordingly. That's implicitly why they're there. There's plenty of other areas within the forum for wide open broad conversation. I then stated the excuses being given for why it's apparently not that way right now, which are eerily similar to what most of us have heard from orgs doing dumb stuff.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that analogy.

Yall and your pictures. :) The second one is more accurate than you know though.

Posts like this make me want to sock.

"Hey guys I'm new here but the way you do things is wrong let me tell you with my logics and intelligents. People who disagree with me probably haze, I mean, they're not denying it, right? Why won't they just address the question at hand instead of telling me what to do? They're not listening to ME tell THEM what to do! It's not fair!"

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2...hlt0775188.gif