The Census is invasive, says Michigan
 

Wary Michigan residents say census treads on privacy
Jennifer Chambers / The Detroit News

Holt -- With 10 questions, it's one of the shortest U.S. census forms in history. But Joan Fabiano thinks it's not short enough, saying the government is entitled to ask only one question: How many people live at a residence?

Across Michigan, people are flexing their political muscle by picking and choosing which questions they complete for the U.S. census, which was mailed to homes March 15.

"There are people who are only going to fill out what is required by the Constitution," said Fabiano, a Holt resident and organizer of Grassroots in Michigan, which seeks to promote individual liberty and limited government. "It's a privacy issue and the federal government does not need to know anything they don't have a right to."

From Grassroots in Michigan to Tea Party activists to Libertarians, groups traditionally wary of government interference in private lives are casting a cynical eye on the census. Their hesitation reflects a national mood of mistrust of Big Brother at a time when census officials say it's most critical to be cooperative, given that funding for myriad programs depends on accurate counting.

"Most people that I know, they are filling out what they want to fill out," said Emily Salvette, state chairwoman of the Libertarian Party of Michigan, who lives in Ann Arbor. "If they feel a question is intrusive, they don't answer it. It's nothing new. It's 'how do we protect our privacy?' "

Census officials are eager to dispel privacy concerns as they work to improve return rates. Nationally, the rate of census return was at 20 percent on Thursday; in Michigan, it was at 26 percent. The numbers were far lower in the city of Detroit, which had only an 11 percent rate of return.

Detroit has several barriers to higher census participation rates, most notably a high adult illiteracy rate, said Erica Hill, coordinator for Detroit Mayor Dave Bing's office for the 2010 census.

Additionally, some are afraid the information the forms provide to the government will be shared with authorities, she said, and folks like undocumented immigrants, those past due on child support or living illegally in a rental home just don't want to be found.

"Suburban communities don't have the population of folks that we have in our areas," she added.

Census officials maintain the information collected from the questionnaire is confidential by law, cannot be used as evidence in court and is not subject to disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act. They add that the Constitution leaves the issue of determining census content to Congress, which approves all questions.

Kim Hunter, a Detroit-based census spokesman in Michigan, said the Census Bureau asks information such as name and birthday because it allows for verification of the data if needed.

"There is nothing ominous going on here," Hunter said. "We are trying to have the count have as much integrity as it can."

Incomplete census forms are still counted in a community's initial rate of return, officials said, but after being scanned, any forms with incomplete answers would be separated and placed into a nonresponsive follow-up pile.

Hunter said those who only partially fill out their forms can expect a visit from a census enumerator between May and July. Census officials have said they will make repeated visits if necessary to obtain information from nonresponsive households.

"Eventually, someone will come knocking on the door to obtain the information," Hunter said.

There are penalties for refusing to be counted in the census, specifically a $5,000 fine. But Hunter said he doesn't think anyone will be forced into completing the questionnaire. "We try to emphasize the benefits of completing it," he said.

Some Michigan residents object to personal information being asked, such as whether one owns or rents a home, while others say the government isn't entitled to data such as name and phone numbers. Others said they are offended at the lack of choices given for race/ethnicity and are writing in the word "American."

'There are political agendas'
Census officials say data collected off the form is used only for statistical purposes and to help determine allocation of federal funds for community services, such as school lunch programs and senior citizen centers, along with new construction projects such as highways and hospitals.

"I don't want to be part of the data capture. I will not fill out my phone number, they can look that up anyway," said Glenn Clark, a Troy resident active in the Oakland County Tea Party. "This census is the most politicized ever in the nation. They have a White House staff person in charge of it. There are political agendas here."


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100326/...#ixzz0jIB7NsH5

More than likely, Michigan's going to lose a Congressman (at least one).

Estimates of the decline are at 465,000 or so and the state is losing a lot of its best talent to other states.

Good luck with that those of you shaking in your boots over the census in Michigan. Your share will be more than welcome elsewhere. :rolleyes: The government gave your your social security number which basically controls your entire life so I don't really think anything their going to ask is ultimately a secret from them at the end of the day.

Another example of what many people define as "socialism".

There are groups in the US who want to do away with:

- public schools (which teach only the government's agenda)
- the road and highway system (yes, every person is assigned a stretch of road to care for)
- the FCC, FAA, FDA and and other "socialist" programs (sure, let's get rid of regulations regarding airplanes and flying!)
- public libraries (because everyone has professional journal and historic works at home
- Police (if we all had guns, we wouldn't need the police!!), fire departments (I got nothing on this one. Just let everything burn down:rolleyes:)
- and much, much more!

I take it you're being overly dramatic but if not what groups are you talking about?

-I've heard recently that the Government used census data to round up Japanese-Americans into the FEMA camps during WWII, anybody know if thats true or just an anti census rumor?

No, I'm not. Google some of the terms and you will find a bunch of references from people and grass-roots organizations who honestly believe that these programs are socialist.

From what I have found, many of the people are ultra-conservative and frequently fundamentalist in their religion. For example, there is a movement to home school to protect children from "government-mandated curriculum".

Some examples of home-grown efforts:

• 1 Million Strong against our SOCIALIST Fire Departments

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=111256528714&topic=9024#!/group.php?gid=111256528714

• Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge (excerpt):
  "I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:
  • Social Security
  • Medicare/Medicaid
  • State Children’s Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
  • Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
  • US Postal Service
  • Roads and Highways
  • Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
  • The US Railway System
  • Public Subways and Metro Systems
  • Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
  • Rest Areas on Highways
  • Sidewalks
  • All Government-Funded Local/State Projects (e.g., see Iowa 2009 federal senate appropriations)
  • Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!)
  • Public and State Universities and Colleges
  • Public Primary and Secondary Schools (click link for more!!)
    

http://www.b12partners.net/wp/2009/0...purity-pledge/

• Freerepublic.com - "Over 300,000 people have registered for posting privileges on Free Republic since inception in 1996 and our forum is read daily by over one hundred thousand freedom loving citizens and patriots from all around the country, and all around the world. We're currently delivering over thirty million pageviews per month to over one million visitors"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2295624/posts

Sounds like a whole bunch of anarchist. A lot of the things they are against are considered the basic function of a government, to ensure the safety and well being of it's citizens.

Patriot movement/militia movement and the like actually.

Oh? Because some of the stuff thay are against like ES seem kind of extreme.

The patriot movement is "kind of extreme." An underlying theme of much of the patriot movement and the associated militia movment is that the government is "the enemy" and anything associated with the government must be resisted.

i am kind of LULZ at the guy who said "I won't give them my phone number, they can look it up!" if it is listed, what's the big deal? Furthermore if he just forked it over the government wouldn't have to pay a census worker to look it up or come to his house to ask questions.

i took the census test Wednesday and the woman said "No, you cannot carry a fire arm, even if you have a permit for conceal carry." No one left but she said people usually do. Also, I may be selected for a temporary position as this is a rural area and people may have to be contacted in person, which made me valuable to them with an AWD vehicle.

Ah ok. Maybe I'm just not seeing the distinction. How is that attitude different from not wanting a government in the first place?

Because the patriot movement doesn't see government as per se undesirable like anarchists would. The patriot movement sees the current US government (including to some degree state governments) as a tyrannical move away from proper constitutional government and toward the One World Order.

Not only that but he probably had all that information and more on his TAX forms!

Another example of how people get worked up over nothing. They won't answer these questions even though not answering them will lead to the government spending tons of money to send out census workers to get you to answer them. These are the same people who lament how much money the government spends on everything. Okay...then just fill out the damn form!! Nobody can steal your damn identity with the little bit of information you have to give!

Or with tax/property records, DMV, hunting & fishing license, gun resgistration and so on. However some people don't pay taxes, for whatever reason, and I know in my area there are some definite people who are anti-government and live in a remote area for a reason.

There is a lot of information on how to identify census workers, and who to call to verify the person is a worker. the thing that struck me is that if you witness a crime, like say, a marijuana grow operation or prostitution, while doing census work; you cannot report it. I'm dealing with a personal conflict regarding that, and though I'm allegedly highly qualified and don't mind working in a rural area, I don't know if I can live with not reporting something. This is only for people's homes, so if I see someone do a hit and run on the way to knocking on doors I can, and should report that.

If offered employment I will have to make a tough decision.

I use the census records from Ancestry.com to research my family. The older forms are very invasive which means they also have lots of good information for genealogists. The current one will be useless in 72 years when it is released to the public.

To see just how invasive that they really were, here are the fields they used. Before 1850, they only listed head of households and how many were in the house. I didn't clean up the choice of words, it was what it was.

1840

• Name of head of house only
• Number of people in the house in each 5 year age bracket by male, female and free colored

All persons in the house are listed separately from here.
1850

• Age
• Sex
• Color
• Profession
• Value of Real Estate
• Place of birth
• Married this year
• Attended school this year
• Person over 20 who cannot read or write
• Whether deaf and dumb, blind, insane, idiotic, pauper or convict

1860

• Same as 1850 with the addition of Value of Personal Estate

1870 Same as 1860 with these addition additions

• Father of foreign birth
• Mother of foreign birth
• Born this year
• Male citizen of USA over 21
• Male citizen of USA over 21 denied the vote on grounds other than rebellion

1880 Similar to 1870 with these addition additions and subtractions

• Males over 21 are both gone
• Relationship to head of house
• Widowed
• Number of months unemployed this year
• Place of birth of father
• Place of birth of mother

1890 census was mostly lost in a fire.

1900 Similar to 1880 with these additions

• Number of years married
• Mother of how many children
• Number of living children
• Year of Immigration to US
• Number of years in US
• Naturalized?
• Can speak English
• Owned or rented
• Owned free of mortgage
• Farm or house
• Number of farm schedule

1910 Similar to 1900 with a bit more break down of education and work

1920 Same as 1910 with these additions

• Native tongue of person
• Native tongue of father of person
• Native tongue of mother of person

From my classically liberal perspective, you do not comprehend the issues (some of which you fairly nail, but are completely off the mark)

J.S. Mill, a classical liberal like myself, thought that public schools created a singular thought process which would be dangerous to the growth of the mind. That being said, of the few things that I think the government should do, education is one of them.
Assigned? That sounds like fascism, not a libertarian dream. Furthermore, the rather standard argument is that corporations would build the roads (not contracted out, but over sole design), however a Hayekian (and thus free-market perspective) is that there is a market gap which the government must provide.
Regulations aren't necessary. They're heavy-handed and generally hurt, instead of help. Let the market decide. The only regulations necessary are those which ensure property rights. As long as property rights are in place, the economic system will remain in place.
You're confusing things rather badly, this was the point where I realized you did not understand what you were talking about. The argument is NOT against libraries, it is against the state funding libraries. Libraries are easily created through private means. Carnegie (that evil baron-capitalist) created a lot of libraries out of his own pockets. Shoot, he was the one who created the foundation which led to TIAA-CREF.
There have been some very good arguments for a private police force. That being said, they still have to be paid. Police/Firefighters are an example of market gap (along with streets and street signs and a few other things). However, a libertarian would propose "user fees".

For example, why should you pay for taxes for a firefighter if you live in an apartment? Those taxes should only be paid for by the owner of the apartment. Why should you pay for streets when you're bound to your bed? Cars should have a high user fee for the roads that would have to be paid, rather than unspecific taxation for something someone doesn't use. It leads to problems, sure. But in my opinion, alot less problems than the current system.

I was offering specific examples for PiKA2001, who suggested that I was being "overly dramatic". I am not an expert in anything, nor do I try to be. I don't have all of the information, but I wanted to provide examples to PiKA, of services that people are rallying against in the fight against "socialism".

I call mega-BS on that! Without the FDA, we would have pharmaceutical companies putting out any medication without properly testing them then withdrawing them from the market before the cost of litigation gets too high. That may be okay from a business perspective, but from a medical and an ethical perspective, it's not okay! We already don't like when drugs get past our strict testing with the FDA, and we end up with drugs like VIOXX, or Phen/Fen causing problems. Don't even get me started on the "health supplements" that don't even have to be regulated but have major health risks, are falsely advertised and routinely removed from the market. I for one thank our government for doing it's job with the FDA. We have the safest drug market in the world thanks to their work.

Check this one out...LOLz

http://slrc.sitemirror.us/site/purpose.php


especially the 3rd statement

oh lawd...and what does Southern Heritage mean to them? It just means a good football game, some gumbo and hospitality to me. I don't think anyone has to go to court to protect that!

Now that's just some sour grapes.

You just contradicted yourself.

Why the hell would they put out bad products especially in this climate of advance litigiousness? They would test it till it was necessary, so their reputations would not be further dragged through the mud. The FDA is unnecessary, it only impedes life-saving products. Furthermore, it prohibits things that are not necessarily needed to be prohibited.
Wait, so is the FDA necessary or unnecessary? Do you think there would be more without it?
We also have a drug market which impedes life-saving medication from saving lifes now. If you didn't know a drug's side effects, but it could possibly save your life...would you take it? I probably would, as long as I was assured one of the side effects wasn't death. (and, through the companies advanced testing to ensure less losses, that would probably not be one of the side effects. Another thing to consider is that these drug companies would no longer have the FDA to be like "look, they tested it so it's not so much our fault", so I would imagine a judge would be willing to take even more from the drug company thus making the possibility of risk larger, thus making it necessary for greater testing. (but that's just a side effect, it kind of just came to me)

The examples which you displayed have things a bit confused. Alot of those items are not socialist, though they are government funded. I can't tell if the b12 site was joking or not. Now a Rothbardian libertarian might agree that those parts of the government are unnecessary, but he's more of an anarcho-capitalist. A Hayekian libertarian would certainly say that many of them are necessary to fill the market gap. My conclusion is that he probably has no understanding of philosophical libertarianism or classical liberalism and just wrote a bunch of stuff the government does.

I JUST finished watching this, came here, and this is the first thread I see. Life's funny that way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9SHp77j8Ro

My dad was dead convinced that all this (his parents and grandparents names, occupations, etc) was supposed to be on the census. I filled it out (after watching parts 1 and 2 that correspond with the above link) and he took it from me, convinced I'd done it wrong because there's no way I should've been done after 5 minutes. He kept it for 3 days while he called around asking for "the other parts of the census that were missing." :rolleyes: Finally, he realized I was right, that's all there was to it.

She's not necessarily talking about libertarian perspectives though.

You did notice the banking problems we've had the last few years?

And what AOIIAngel said about the FDA. Who would put out bad products in this age of litigiousness? Seriously? The same people/corporations who try to do it now.

She's not confusing things rather badly, you didn't read. She said public libraries -- libraries funded with public funds.

Like I said, I don't think she was trying to reflect a classic libertarian position, but rather the extreme positions of patriot movement types -- the ones who refuse to put ZIP codes on their letters because that's an acknowledgment of government authority and intrusion. (Yep, I've dealt with them -- address the letter just right or they won't accept delivery.)

Yeah, you do have to make a tough decision. God only knows what situations you may be walking into and the guy operating the meth lab in his trailer probably doesn't know you can't turn him in. Remember that census worker that was found hanging from a tree? One of the rumors about his death was that he stumbled onto some illegal activities while performing his duties.

Is there a threshold in what you can't report? What if you walk into a house and witness child abuse, do you still turn the other cheek? I couldn't live with myself

Are you thinking of a different one than I am? I thought his death was ruled a suicide?

ETA: Found a link.

This displays your complete ignorance of what the FDA actually does. Since I actually know people who have worked for the FDA, know what the agenda of the FDA is, know what medications are actually coming out, what medications have been withdrawn from the market and why, which medications have not been approved here that are approved in other countries and why, I might have a little better understanding of the intricacies of this issue. The FDA has a very important role in our country that a "free market" would NOT replace. You ask, "Why the hell would they put out bad products especially in this climate of advance litigiousness?" They do it because in a lot of cases it is very hard to PROVE that their drug caused a problem when a lot of illness are multi-factorial. They also are willing to accept a certain amount of liability to profit ratio, ie. the Vioxx fiasco (the company had the information that the drug increased the risk of heart attacks and stroke but hid the data!)Safety in medications, effectiveness and benefits are important, and especially important if you are asking an insurance company to pay for a medication or advise a physician that a medication is indicated in a specific medical condition or more importantly, ask a patient to trust that a pill will help them more than it will hurt them! There are so many supplements on the market that claim to treat certain illnesses that don't have to prove it. Patients take these and never get any better. They have no recourse. At least with the FDA approved medications, there is science to back them up, and the FDA has made sure that the insurance company has lined all their ducks in a row to make sure that the drugs are as safe as possible without obstructing the flow of new medications. If you poll physicians, I think you'll find an overwhelming majority who support the FDA and its work.

That's the one. It ended up being ruled as a suicide but due to the very odd way of his physical condition authorities looked at it as a homicide at first.

Right... but there were also reports that he took out two life insurance policies that would not pay out if his death was ruled a suicide, so I'm sure he had extra incentive to make it look like a homicide.

That's basically how it works now. They get released on the market and then if there's a problem the FDA pulls it, if they haven't gotten their bribe money from GSK yet.

Yeah, due to the federal governments regulation of our money, yes I have seen them.

Yes. But she makes the assumption that those are the only libraries available (when she sarcastically says "because everyone has professional journal and historic works at home"). If the only other option to public libraries, was professional journal and historical works at home, that would concede that there were no private libraries. Private libraries can provide the same service at a cheaper price with greater availability.

I'm not sure this puts you in a better place.
Yeah. But the FDA doesn't catch these. So what is it's use again?
So, the FDA couldn't stop them. What, again, is the FDA's point?

You're not quite understanding the issue. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process for drugs to be validated as good drugs. I'm saying the government doesn't need to have any part of it. Undoubtedly, the drug companies or an independent agency will likely be formed (possibly by consumers) in order to test the product, which will then be certified through that measure. Society naturally forms these organizations, a government doesn't need to create it. Perhaps there will be several of these organizations each with different levels of credibility and safety. A doctor might say "Oh, this drug is XYZ certified but it's not ABC certified, so I won't recommend it." That would be the likely nature of things without an FDA.

edit: In my utopia, this sort of system I would prefer for many types of certification, including lawyers, surveyors, and other occupations where some sort of certification of learning is necessary for practice.

I don't think Michigan doesn't like the census because they greatly oppose the FDA.

I think that loosing a congressional seat thing might be more pertinent.

That's basically how it works now. They get released on the market and then if there's a problem the FDA pulls it, if they haven't gotten their bribe money from GSK yet.

May I point out that the only reason this article is Michigan focused is because it was done by The Detroit News. It, in no way, says that Michigan people feel differently than other people in the country. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find groups of people in every state who feel the census is invasive.

My feelings on the FDA will be expressed AFTER they audit one of our clinical trials for gene therapy this week. I'll let you know what I think of them afterward..lol. Seriously though, I totally see them as a needed government function. Some things are better done by the government.

This thread has turned into this:

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Cha...nger_large.gif

Just mailed mine out-

There are people from all over the country who feel that the census needs only to know the number of occupants in the residence and that's all. I didn't find the census intrusive but I did feel that the questions of how I am related to whom I live with And if I own or rent unnecessary. Also think it's stupid that they didn't ask if the person was a citizen, permanent resident or temp visitor. Any person on a temp visa renting a house or apt is going to be counted as a citizen.

People also aren't thinking this through. There has to be a way to check the numbers reported against another database, ie SSN to make sure that no one claims fake citizens to keep congressional seats or federal money. Also, the census is an expensive process that gets done only once a decade so it gives us a rare opportunity to collect demographic information like race, home owner ship that gives us a "snapshot" of the nation in 2010. We've done it forever, and I hate to say it, but opposing the census IS unAmerican!

I have a problem with all the mail that they send out that is unnecessary--
I got a letter telling me they were sending a packet... um ok, but wouldn't I know that when I got the packet?
I got the packet and found it rather annoying, especially all the race questions. But I filled it out and sent it in.
Then I got a letter telling me that they had sent me a packet and hopefully I sent it back in. Ok... was that necessary?

Why not send the packets and then only send follow ups to people who don't respond in a month?