|
Interesting e-mail from a friend
It has been over a month since the attack and after the adreneline rush, I'm now able logically think about the course of action that we have taken. The first week I was all for bombing the crap out of Afghanistan because of emotional ties with WTC. I have many high school friends who work there, a couple brothers from my chapter and my sister work across the street. But I have also been blessed by being in another continent and being able to see the whole event from the outside. So here is an e-mail from a friend who is from Ghana:
HANDY GUIDE TO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TERRORISTS AND US GOVERNMENT Confused? Having difficulty telling the good guys from the bad guys? Use this handy guide to discern differences between Terrorists and the U.S. Government: TERRORISTS: Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely wealthy oil family US GOVERNMENT: Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely wealthy oil family TERRORISTS: Leader has declared a holy war ('Jihad') against his 'enemies'; believes any nation not with him is against him; believes God is on his side, and that any means are justified. US GOVERNMENT: Leader has declared a holy war ('Crusade') against his 'enemies'; believes any nation not with him is against him; believes God is on his side, and that any means are justified. TERRORISTS: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers US GOVERNMENT: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers TERRORISTS: Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election US GOVERNMENT: Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election TERRORISTS: Kills thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold blooded bombings US GOVERNMENT: Kills (tens of) thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold blooded bombings TERRORISTS: Operates through clandestine organization (al Qaeda) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics US GOVERNMENT: Operates through clandestine organization (CIA) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics TERRORISTS: Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties US GOVERNMENT: Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties * * * Very significant differences lie NOT in the ideological plane, but elsewhere: Bin Laden's active combatant force numbers in the hundreds if not thousands. Many are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in, and they are armed with essentially black market equipment, homemade weapons and whatever they can capture and use against those whom they view as the enemy. The US Government's active combatant force numbers in the millions. By and large --especially at the top-- they are not willing to die for what they believe in, they are only willing to kill for what they believe in. They are armed with every weapon of murder, mayhem and genocide ever invented in the entire history of the human race and have a very convincing record of a willingness to use them, not just in one spectacular action but with the humdrum ruthless efficiency of a soulless bureaucracy that handles "tasking" the annihilation of what turns out to be a peaceful rural hamlet as one more piece of paperwork. They view any number of civilian casualties and any amount of misery visited upon a nation's population as the merely inevitable, acceptable "collateral damage" inflicted by the Fates of War. These are, in turn, expressions of different social classes. The U.S. Government's side is an expression of the imperialist system. I assume everyone here agrees on that. All the folderol about Western Civilization and Modernity and all that is either tautological -- because current "modernity" is imperialist modernity, there is no other world system -- or an attempt to cover up the reality and responsibility of this single world system for what it has wrought on a world scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
I'm not exactly a pro-war advocate, but some of your parallels were laughable, really. Brilliant effort though, bravo...
|
Sorry, can't take the credit for it. Though some are true, some are not true. Just something to think about.
|
Oh, I def agree on some, I think just the way your friend put some of it makes some of it seem less valid, like they tried to stretch it to fit.
I agree on many aspects though. I am like a giant war-field, internally. I battle opposing views within myself until my brain nearly blows off. That's why this is such a big deal to me. I mena, we do lots of bad shit, but honestly, I think we usually have good intentions, or we're ignorant that we're causing harm. You know? So when people say bomb the shit out of them...I'm like..is that the answer. But damn, to be honest, sometimes you simply have to fight blow for blow. It's this stuff that gave us the freedom we have today, people fighting for our country. A metaphor: a snake. I hate snakes. I've no real reason to hate them, but they seem to pose a substantial threat to my health. If I see one, I'm not willing to die so that someone else doesn't get bit, unless of course it's a few select people, but I'm willing to kill the piece of crap so that it no longer poses a threat to me. Elitist and Gorilla? Maybe. But like I said, sometimes an eye for an eye might be best. But don't misinterpret..I'm still not pro-war, I'm just not anti-war. |
Here is something for you to think about.
Why dont you take that email and go straight to hell. How bout that? You make me sick posting that kind of commie ass email on here. What reaction did you expect on here Arya? A gentle debate or discusion over a nice cappuchino about the similarities? Give me a damn break. Never been so mad about something posted on here in all my LIFE!!!!!!!!!!! ZETA I AM REQUESTING THAT YOU SHUT THIS THREAD. You answer everyone elses requests over little things that get everyone elses feathers ruffled, and I never fathomed that I would ever request for a thread to be closed. Well this straight PISSES ME OFF. If this thread dont close I will never hit this site again. Bet on it. |
WOW....I would have to disagree with many aspects of this email..too many to debate here..but..if someone thinks that the U.S. gov't is almost exactly the same as a terrorist regime...then maybe they should leave this evil gov't and go live under a new one. People in our very own country bash the hell out of our gov't day after day after day, but if it came down to it, i'd be willing to bet that the majority of them wouldn't leave.
d |
to clarify myself, in case I was misunderstood at all, I don't agree with what's said, despite saying I did, I agree with the fact that we have done some bad shit in our history...on accident, or out of misunderstanding/miscommunication. Just wanted that point cleared up. I hope that is the general point Arya was wishing to convey, not that the US is a terrorist regime of sorts, but I cannot be sure from his intent. Also, I hope my 'bravo' was read as sarcastically, towards his friend, the emailer, as I'd typed it.
|
This is perhaps what majority of the world think of us. Although most government condemn the attack, I'll bet you my VW that most are skeptical whenever our government talk about freedom and democracy. Don't get me wrong, I think bin Ladin should get his balls cut, but let's not be naive to think that our government are loved and respected by the rest of the world.
KA, the first casualty of a war are not lives, but rational argument and freedom of expression without the fear of being branded traitor or being one with the terrorist. Do I believe everthing the e-mail said. Hells no. But I also realized of our sins in the past which made many nations hesitant to support us 100%. |
Quote:
|
<< If this thread dont close I will never hit this site again. Bet on it. >>
Hope this is insincere...I'd hate to see you go. |
Quote:
Second, a lot of gov'ts scorn the U.S. for being a "police force" so to speak. Yet, when it's time to help their respective country..they are all for it. Yes, they will take our money, they will take our supplies, they will take our food, adn when we are gone, all that we get are cursed remarks and debts that will never be paid. Let's take for instance the events of WWII...events that nearly broke almost every coutry in Europe..notice i said nearly...why not surely? BECAUSE..the U.S. gov't was there to help, aiding with supplies, food, and loans, yes..loans....huge huge loans...Hell the U.S. gov't helped the French gov't from going under after being controlled by Nazi Germany for so long. Now..for the most part...we are scorned by the French..not always..but..there is hatred against Americans...not to mention..no country ever paid back those loans to the U.S...hell, they didn't even pay the interest that has accumulated on those loans. So, our gov't had to take a hit and suck up their pride. Bah... d |
The French don't like anybody. That is from personal experience. You think we are arrogant, wait till you go to French and try to speak English or tourist style French.
|
I will talk to mods about it if the mods of this forum don't take it down first. This site (gc) isn't anti american. And I agree it should go.
|
If this thread go, c-ya all later
|
Quote:
d |
why should this thread go? I think it's a great thread that is getting people to speak truer feelings about American Policies
|
I also think this thread should remain open for the sake of debate.
I think that Arya's point is to show how other people of the world view the U.S. Government. And, as bad as it sounds...we should at least hear it out and then speak about it. d |
Re: Interesting e-mail from a friend
Quote:
|
Its is still anti american and many people are bothered by it. Several people are willing to leave GC if its not gone. Only one will leave if it goes. Easy choice. If it bothers alot of people its not worth staying open. Hopefully the mods of this forum delete it soon.
|
Well..if the post goes..I go too..
I don't see it as anti-american..i see it as reality from the rest of the world..something debatable...debates are supposed to bother ppl..that's why they debate on them...maybe change ppl's views..maybe to change their own... d |
Arya I ask you. In the condition the country is in right now is it really necessary to have discusions about our shortcomings as a nation. Necessary to be crucified for mistakes we have made.
Hell no. Glad you agree that Bin Laden should have his balls cut. America, regardless of what you want to believe, opens its doors to everyone, of every race, and every nationality. Guess what? We dont need them here. We face future problems like overpopulation and such and we still let everyone come. I dont give two shits about what has happened in the past. No one deserved to die in America because Bin Laden has a camel up his ass. No afganis deserve to die either that arent taliban. I guess its either you or me pal. This thread dont close, I'm gone. If it does you are. I'm fighting for anything that has to do with any kind of anti patriotism. Your fighting for the right to examine Americas shortcomings. I guess its up to Zeta to decide who is right. |
Politics aren't nice - but they're a fact of life and something that should be allowed to be practiced as freely as religion and sexuality in this country. You don't have to agree with what anyone is saying here - thats not the objective, and in no way did I see that as being Anti-American. We're not puppets of the government, we're able to see the wrong and the right they do - I think Arya was just pointing that out, and that email did make some very interesting correlations. Please please please don't sensor people because you don't like what they have to say - everyone is entitled to their own opinion in my book, and yours isn't nesessarily the right or wrong one.
I for one, am all for the bombings, i think lin laden can go to heck and the U.S. is right on in this "fight against terrorism" but i respevct other people's opinions. |
Ka is right its up to the mods of this forum or the admin. Guess its up to them who stays and who goes.
|
ok, now you're all in really big trouble....
If you mean to tell me that you're going to leave because a post is closed or left open then that is ridiculous. If this is something you feel so strongly about, stay and respectfully argue your side - don't run away like a little prissy.
|
Another point I just made, zero-sum game never win. And KA, this is exactly the right time. If we just sit in the bench and become a cheerleader, then our future is not great. Did you know that Northern Alliance was a major exporter of opium and in its rank were known rapist? Or that there are other options out there in getting bin Ladin. Of course not, the media has become more of a cheerleaders and we are not getting the full story.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I strongly disagree with the content of the email...when you really stop to compare the United States and Bin Laden, I don't believe that you will find any substantive parallels. In fact, the superficiality of it really annoys the heck out of me.
That said, I don't think this thread should be closed. When we begin to censor unpopular statements, we stoop to the level of the Taliban and Bin Ladin. We end up playing into their hands--muffling free speech is exactly what they want us to do! Freedom of speech isn't worth the paper its written on if we can only speak freely when we all agree. It is the loud, unpopular opinions that the Constitution was meant to protect. I don't like what Arya has to say, but I'll be damned if I am going to have a part in shutting him up. BillyMac, I certainly hope that you will reconsider your decision to leave if the thread is kept open. |
i am 100% pro American, and that is why i believe so strongly in what our fore fathers faught for iwhen securing our freedom and grating us the first amendment - freedom of speech. if that thread goes for reasons simply that you don't agree with him, or Arya is kicked off for expressing his constitutional right, i will not be a happy camper.
|
Re: ok, now you're all in really big trouble....
Quote:
|
Obviously they won't see who they like better and decide what to do but with all these people threating to leave make the decission of the mods even harder.
|
Quote:
|
I'm incredibly disheartened. I'm sad that someone would, in these horrible times, post something that was as incredibly anti-american as that post was. We need to support our nation, instead of searching for what we've done wrong. Perhaps, Arya, if you had been in NYC or if you had had a friend who was killed by the arrogance of the Terrorists last month, you would have thought more throroughly about posting something that might offend most of the people on this board. I refuse to partake in pointing out what's bad about America and Americans. I also refuse to sit here and worry about what other countries think of us. We've done a great deal for other countries, more, I think than we should have done- yet we get very little respect from anybody. American's help feed the children and hungry in your very own country~ so how can you sit there and insult our society and tell us that we are like the people who have been so against us for so long?
That said- I would also like to make note that although even I was incredibly offended and upset by Arya's post, I find it very immature and silly to say that you'll leave just because a post will or will not be taken down. I sincerly hope with everything I am, that you will all stay. It is America, after all, and there is something we call Freedom of Speech. If you are so Pro-American, than you should, of all people, respect and acknowledge this basic right, given to ALL Americans. Always, Jessica |
Actually, one of my friends who i grew up with is missing in WTC. I grew up in Forest Hills, NY and I've known many.
|
Calm down...
It was ill advised to post these "comparisons," however this won't be the first or the last of this kind of thing we see. This is not the first post from Arya that I've thought was out of place. However, as this "war" goes on, the debate over whether it's just, smart, worthwhile, being executed properly and a miriad of other things will show up. Sooner or later the "Hawks" and "Doves" will probably have at each other. I was a college student (and ROTC cadet) during the height of the Vietnam "Conflict" and a paraphrasing of, "America, Love it or Leave It," is a concern to me. Freedom of speech and discussion is one of the basic tennants on which our Constitution is based and upon which our country was founded. Nowhere does it say, "You can have any opinion you want as long as I agree with it." "My country, right or wrong," is something we've all heard. As I understand it, that quote is generally taken somewhat out of context. The quote may not be exact, but I believe the entire thought is, "My country, may she always be right -- but, right or wrong, my country." In other words, I will support my country -- but I don't have to always agree with it. If something endangers our national security, it should be surpressed. This doesn't. Extremism vs. extremism is a recipe for disaster. Name calling (Commie) doesn't help. Remember that it was, to a large extent, the dissent of the "Anti-war" movement and later the media that helped bring an end to Vietnam. Having said that... There is little or no parrallel between the present situation and Vietnam that I can see. The North Vietnamese Army or Viet Cong never attacked on American Soil. While most of us (myself included) believe that the events of September 11 and days after demand a reply in kind, we still must leave room in our minds for thoughtful discussion -- pro and con. I simply hope that our country and allies have the intestinal fortitude to bring this to a real conclusion. I'm not sure we've done that since World War II. Consider Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. Have any of the people or governments that started those actions really been toppled? If we're going to do this, let's finish it this time. If not, let's quit now. But, that is a digression. The First Amendment doesn't apply to the web, as far as I know, and probably wouldn't come to play in this case anyway, however the reasons for its existance were drawn from the supression of opposing views and opinions. Arya, I think this was a dumb thing to post -- and I wish you hadn't -- but it is your right to do it. No matter how ill advised. If other posters choose to abandon this forum because of this posting, it is their loss in the long run. And ours. Fraternally, DeltAlum |
Then I find it even more cruel that you would post something so Anti-American.
I'm really dissapointed. Why must people always be so negitive. Always, Jessica |
I commend you Ayra from withdrawing threat. You make the chit chat mods decision easier because there will be a little less pressure. I don't mean to anger anyone. I don't like the post and don't really want it here like some others. Some people want it to stay. We should all respect everyones opinions even though we may not like them. Everyone is big on free speech on here so there should be no real big debate on opinions. If we could cut out the threats the thread wouldn't "flame" as much I think.
|
At first i thought this thread should be closed, not b/c of the content, but b/c it is still a sensitive time but could maybe be brought up in the near future.
First, I would just like to say that this thread has Bill Mahr Episode written all over it. Anyone else see any similarities? :) For both cases I agree with two things. One, both people (anyone for that matter) has a RIGHT to say how they feel. HOWEVER, there's a place and a time. And even though its been more than a month, many Americans are still feeling the effects and people to a point have to watch what they. We have to remember that this is a country that at one point if anything bad was said about the government during a time of war a person could be sent to jail or executed for Treason. I am not pro-war and Im not anti-war also. This man used our own people and planes as missles killing thousands of innocent people. SOMETHING has to be done. Talking hasnt worked, so what does someone suggest besides war? If you have any ideas please send them .....nevermind, I dont think Congress is opening any mail. I agree that America isnt sweet and innocent. I happen to think that sometimes we can be way arrogant and we shooudltn force our ways on countries that dont want it. Sometimes we dont help the situation. But I wouldnt generalize by saying a majority or large amounts of counrties hate us. We have many, but we have way more that agree with our views (former poli sci major). Lastly, I would have to say that you shouldnt judge George Bush unless you know. There is no way you can say that he is arrogant, spolied, whatever. So the man has money, so his dad was president...BIG WHOOP! Majority of preisdents had financially happy lives. And Bin Laden is the only terrorist I know that actually had money. It was in my belief that people who do these things have almost nothing, and feel since this is the case, they have nothing to lose by doing these acts. By the way leaving b/c the post is open or closed is not gonna solve. My $1.00 worth |
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:21 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.