Prodigy, product of propaganda, or....? 10 yr old refuses to say Pledge of Allegiance
 

A 10-year old boy refuses to state the Pledge of Allegiance until "gays and lesbians" have the same liberties as heterosexuals.

The kid told the teacher she could "jump off a bridge". Dad says the kid quoted his first amendment right. He also said that kids at school call him a "gaywad".

So what do you think - smart, empathetic kid, a product of what he hears in the news, or taking on parental views?

What do you think?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/....no.pledge.cnn

Meh.. so?

This is on CNN?

The kid should be punished for telling the teacher to "jump off a bridge." Sorry Dad, we won't even go into students rights, but in the non-school world, I don't think the first amendment would cover that.

Now whether the kid should say the Pledge? Ehhh, that's kinda iffy. I've known people who disagreed with the "under God" part, so they would leave that out. I don't think its THAT big a deal (but then again, i'm the one who won't say the Texas pledge lol)

Agreed. I've never been a fan of the "under god" part, but I always stood out of respect for the pledge and the others in the room. Sometimes I said the whole pledge other than that line, and sometimes I just stood quietly.

It's cool that the 10 year old feels so strongly about something and is willing to take a stand for it, but you've got to do it in a respectful manner. And threats (even if idle) are not high on the respect scale.

Exactly. The Constitution protects people against the GOVERNMENT... Not against their teacher giving them detention.

Exactly.

There's no way the kid came up with this on his own. He's parroting mom and dad, who should be making him very sorry he ever spoke to a teacher that way. If you're going to take a stand like this, at least do it without mouthing off at the teacher.

Assuming this is a public school, it's operated by the government and the teacher acts on behalf of the government.

The First Amendment still isn't going to help him, though.

True. But again, this isn't to protect people from their teachers punishing them for being an idiot. It's to protect the kid from being arrested for "speaking against the government" as a whole (in refusing to say the pledge of allegiance).

Either way, the whole thing is stupid.

That's what I thought. I don't have kids, but I thought that 10 was a bit young to understand sexual politics (if that is a correct "new" usage of the term).

As for telling the teacher off, the dad seemed amused by it. He seems so enthused about his "gifted" child that he fails to teach the kid basic respect.

I feel like the kid is "special" on the side of so ridiculously smart that his parents don't know what to do with him and wonder if there was a mix-up in the nursery.

I like him. I'd raise him.

Around 11-12 years old, I stopped wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance; and I stopped standing up and putting my hand over my heart for whatever anthems or allegiances there were.

My parents weren't the reason. I had started reading a lot of history books and journal articles that, IN MY OPINION, didn't paint the U.S. in a good light. I decided to translate my newfound knowledge into a 12 year old version of social protest.

I'm so kickass.

Pip pip!

Look at his shirt!

My mother said she stopped saying the Pledge in school; my grandparents had absolutely nothing to do with it. If she was able to pull that off on her own free will over 50 years ago, why is anyone surprised that a kid today--who tend to be much more informed about how the news and politics than most of us were at his age--would do the same thing?

exactamundo.

There are far too many parents like this.
He may have really come up with that on his own. Even so, I agree with Kevin. This was on CNN?
But them I'm one of those people who does not find it amusing when kids "say the darndest things." He should be punished for talking to the teacher like that.

On another note, I refuse to say the Pledge, and support his decision in that regard. I just don't support kids talking back to their teachers. I can't even imagine what I would have done had one of my students said something to me like that. But they knew better.

Ditto

I listened to this boy and I think he figured it out on his own.

I don't have much, if any problem, with people who decide not to say the pledge. Sometimes it bugs me a little when kids don't bother to stand not because they are taking a political or philosophical position, but because they'd rather finish math homework or something that particular day. If you're a pledger 90% of the time, go ahead set aside the 30 seconds to pledge, I think. I do understand that it's hard to actually give saying it conscious thought when you say it everyday under the exact same half-asleep circumstances.

But I'm not sure that giving this kid this big an audience is particularly awesome. I don't have any particular problem with his position, but I think there's a chance that he's just getting reinforcement for attention seeking behavior, rather than taking principled stands. Without knowing the kid, it's impossible to say, and we're certainly giving CNN what they are looking for: controversy in a clip.

Where's the controversy? Has there been widespread public response or outrage that I have missed?

This isn't news worthy but it is perhaps worthy of a 2 page thread where people nod their head to it. Nothing deep or controversial there.

I remember when I was in elementary school there was a boy in my class who refused to stand up for the Pledge. He was a Jehovah Witness, and though he explained to the teacher that his religion prevented him from pledging anything to anyone other than God, the teacher wouldn't let it go and sent him to the principal's office. The kid must have won that fight, because the next day and the rest of the school year he remained seated during the Pledge.

I agree that it's not super-inflamatory, but why do you think it got picked up as a national news story? Is CNN just in the business of congratulating the youth of American when they refuse to say the pledge? Will there be a new feature about Kid Stand of the Day? It's hard to make the case that it's a particular important story to be a national story.

In terms of importance, Progressive Kid Notices U.S. Hypocrisy is about on the level of 10 year-old Newly Christian Kid Talks a Lot About Being Nice to the Disabled Girl Because It's What Jesus Would Do. Annoying Parents Suspected in Both Cases could be the subhead.

I think they ran it because CNN anticipated people discussing the points in the OP here. It would yield back and forth and trips to the CNN websites.

I'm sort of surprised the teacher was that ignorant.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vi...on_v._Barnette

But I guess someone has to point it out to you for you to know. I feel like I learned that in high school, though.

I was simply musing as to whether or not typical a 10 year old has the insight to develop and stand up for a strong conviction on an issue as complicated as the application of the Pledge of Allegiance to gay rights to marriage.

My daughter would have, at age 10. She's been very politically aware and opinionated since about age 8. It's not parental influence because her parents are of opposing viewpoints. I was pretty surprised when, in 8th grade, she did this day of silence for gay rights that she heard about somewhere on the internet. She ordered a packet in advance which had cards that she handed out all day to her teachers explaining why she was not speaking that day. I'd never have had the guts to do that.. I was simply too much of a conformist, especially at that age.

Her father continually accuses me of filling her with liberal BS, but I swear, although I explain why I feel the way I do, that kid is far more liberal than I am! I will not be surprised, with her interest in politics and journalism, if she becomes a political pundit.

This article says he skipped a grade, so he's likely precocious enough to figure it out on his own. The teacher was also a substitute so maybe unaware of his level of intelligence and the whole situation might have been different.

http://www.arktimes.com/articles/art...0-3823aa79c021

I'm sure some kids can and do put all of this together on their own (yay Dr. Phil :D), but I've worked with lots of kids that age, and in my experience, gay rights simply isn't on the radar for most (any?) of them, much less translating that outrage about gay rights to protest by not saying the pledge. Granted, I'm in a part of the country where gay rights isn't that high profile an issue, but then again, so is this kid. Maybe I'm selling the kid short, but this just looks to me more like the kid picking up what he heard from mom and dad or somewhere else and running with it rather than completely putting it all together on his own. Not that that would be any different from how most kids that age start the process of forming opinions.

I have always told my students that they don't have to say the Pledge, but that they are not allowed to be disruptive or distracting to the other students.

Sub teacher should have called the parents and discussed it with them after the second day, if it was bothering her that much. As far as she knows, the student was playing the age-old game, "Let's act up for the sub teacher".

Student should have said something to mom and dad after the first day: "I don't want to stand for the Pledge; the sub says I have to; what should I do?" Sorry, but saying "Go jump in a lake" isn't the worst thing said, but is still disrespectful.

They were both in the wrong. It should not have went on for 4 days. Either one of them should have brought it up to the administration or parents to see how it could have been resolved.

This.

I'm a sub, and I don't mind if the kids don't say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. But they will stand, and they will NOT be disruptive to the students, because that is just a lack of respect.

The most disruptive students I've had during the Pledge/National Anthem time have been the military kids (but that is a different story lol)

Sometimes it amazes and frightens me the things children under 13 are exposed to in this day and age to the point that I think, kids aren't kids anymore...at least not in the same manner I guess what I am used to seeing.

I guess it's a sign of getting older.

Sounds like the sub was being a butthole. The kid got in trouble for talking back to a teacher. He can protest lack of gay rights to his heart's content, but he doesn't get to be disrespectful to teachers. The sub, however, needs to be instructed to leave kids alone who don't want to say the pledge for whatever reason. Like they're going to fix the classroom in the two days they're teaching!

Exalt.

This is around the age where children start to question everything theyre told as fact. Discovering that Santa and the tooth fairy aren't real turns into thinking "omg my parents lies to me, what else have they lied about?"

then it turns into "this history book lies! this teacher lies! everyone is lying, why should i believe this?"

If anything, we should applaud that children, young adults, are able to make these connections and engage in this discourse. its awkward and uncomfortable, but what isnt?

Maybe. But as I've said, in my experience, 10-year-olds who take it this far are very much the exception, not the rule.

And what do you mean about Santa and the tooth fairy? http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/sad0066.gif

Have a seat, MysticCat. This may hurt, but I'm only telling you this because I love you. When you saw us taking presents out the closet that Eve, we told you Santa hid them there. But......

If this kid or any other doesnt want to say the pledge, then I think that is their right to not do so. I do agree with others that by choosing not to for whatever reason they wish, doesnt give a student the right to be disrespectful to the teacher or disruptive to the class. I too agree this shananigan shouldnt have gone on for four days nor do I think it really newsworthy to the national media.

I myself for whatever reason I cant remember, stopped saying the pledge in school about the 10th grade. I stood, but said nothing and really didnt think too much of it either until 9/11. This incident made me rethink quite a few things. I now proudly say the Pledge of Allegiance and sing the national anthem with pride.

When I taught in a public school, all students stood as a matter of respect, but no one HAD to say the pledge. I myself don't say ALL the pledge -

When I taught at a private Christian high school, students had to attend chapel every day. I didn't require any students to actively participate - only to follow the service in their hymnals and prayer books. I would do the same were I to attend a religious service of a faith not my own.

You can respect the dignity of those around you by silently standing without compromising your beliefs. For example, I stand when the Canadian national anthem is played.

Forcing someone to say the pledge strikes me as counter to what I hope we cherish as American ideals.

I participate in the pledge, and unless the national anthem is being performed in a way that discourages others from singing, I sing along. It's important to me, so I do it.

Having said that, I don't agree with making students stand for the pledge. While some people view standing as a sign of respect, others see it as something more. Plus, I figure requiring people to stand and/or pledge is completely contrary to the sentiment. Kinda like having to tell someone you want them to hug you.

If you want to stand and pledge, fine. If you want to stand only, fine. If you don't want to stand or pledge, fine.

Would the kid in the wheelchair be punished for not standing?

:)

He/she would just need to sit up straight. Or hope that the patriotic fervor of the reciting of the pledge would be such that he/she would be HEALED! HEALED by the power of the pledge!

What "something more"? There's a big difference between requiring someone to say words they don't believe, and asking them to show respect to those who do wish to pledge. Standing doesn't say anything other than you are acknowledging the importance of the pledge to others - to sit is an act of disrespect.

:D