Princeton sends letter to parents regarding concerns about Greek Life
 

Daily Princetonian
Princeton University
April 29, 2009
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/04/29/23574/

Tilghman explains continued concerns about Greek life

By Melanie Jearlds, Staff Writer

As the University prepares to welcome another class of incoming freshmen,
these members of the Class of 2013 will receive a letter from Dean of
Undergraduate Students Kathleen Deignan and Vice President for Campus Life
Janet Dickerson over the summer informing them that the University does not
support fraternities and sororities on campus.

President Tilghman said in an interview last Wednesday that the
administration continues to discourage incoming students from participating
in Greek life on campus because she believes it restricts students’ social
lives.

Several members of Greek organizations on campus said they were opposed to
the University sending out a letter asking students not to join organizations.

“I thought it was unnecessary and really not the school’s place to
interfere in such a manner,” said Caroline Rawls ’12, a member of Kappa
Alpha Theta. “Does the school send out letters asking kids not to join
other organizations? No. So why should they send out a letter discouraging
students to join a sorority or fraternity when they would never do the
exact same thing for any other organization?”

But Tilghman said she thinks fraternities and sororities do not contribute
as much to campus life as other groups, like athletic teams or performance
groups.

“Those groups are forming around an ability, a talent [or] an interest that
is likely to attract students from lots of socioeconomic groups, from lots
of different geographical backgrounds, from lots of racial groups,” she
explained. “When I’ve seen the way that fraternities and sororities go
about attracting their membership, it’s not based on talent. It’s based on
social comfort. And that strikes me as fundamentally different than joining
a football team or joining an a cappella group.”

Tilghman added that she thinks the University’s letter may serve to inform
students that Greek organizations do exist on campus and actually spark
interest in joining a fraternity or sorority.

“I do worry … that it is a potential unintended consequence,” she said. “I
still feel that it is important for the University to inform both the
students and their parents what our policy is in regards to not recognizing
these social groups.”

Tilghman said she was also concerned that participation in fraternities or
sororities leads to early “segregation of students along racial … [and]
socioeconomic lines.”

She said she is worried, in particular, by how rush activities come early
during the academic year, leaving freshmen little time to form outside
friendships prior to joining Greek societies.

“I think I have to go all the way back to Woodrow Wilson ... who said one
of the most important things you do at Princeton is ... encounter the
‘other,’ ” Tilghman said. “When groups form * and more often than not,
these are forming among students who feel very comfortable with each other
* you’re losing your opportunity during your first and second year at
Princeton to encounter the ‘other,’ and that’s my philosophical objection.”

But Kappa Alpha Theta president Emmy Ill ’10 said she thinks sororities
like hers were beneficial to the campus community.

“I feel that sororities do add to University life in numerous ways, and I
hope we will develop a positive relationship with the administration,” she
said in an e-mail, declining to offer any other comments on the subject.

Numerous other members of sororities and fraternities who were contacted
either declined to or did not respond to requests for comment.

Fraternities and sororities have long had strained relations with the
administration. Back in 2004, officials in Nassau Hall approached officers
from the Greek societies about the possibility of delaying rush until
January or February, and the groups refused. The students were unwilling to
consider the request for fear of conflicts with Bicker, Tilghman said.

But Rawls said the timing of rush during the fall semester of her freshman
year did not restrict her social life.

“We have over a month to get information about Greek life and determine
whether or not it is for you,” Rawls said. “Because things like the
activities fair happen before rush anyway, it’s not like people aren’t
already involved in other activities and informed about other social and
service options that they might find interesting.”

Tilghman also criticized the way sororities and fraternities feed directly
into the bicker clubs.

“We know that happens,” she said. “We’ve documented it year in and year
out. Anyone who says that doesn’t happen hasn’t looked at the data.”

Though there are clear comparisons to be made between the Greek
organizations and the eating clubs, Tilghman said she thinks there was an
important distinction between the two because students don’t join clubs
until halfway through sophomore year.

“You don’t really become active in the eating club until your junior and
senior year, so by that time you have had a year-and-a-half to two years to
meet lots of people, join lots of groups, create different ways of having a
social life at Princeton, and I think you are ready to make some decisions
about how you want to spend your last two years,” she explained.

I think there was already a thread on this - anyway, this is something they do every year, and because they're Princeton they can do whatever they want. Greek life is great, but Princeton students will get some other pretty great experiences in their time at the school.

Princeton discourages freshman from joining fraternities and sororities

And yeah . . . it's Princeton.

This comes up for discussion every year here, and the same issues are brought up:

• Greek Life is not recognized by the University; there are, however, several chapters that have been successful. The NPHC chapters, as an example, are a group where the lack of University endorsement has not posed a problem in terms of interest and numbers.
  
• Yes, there are eating clubs which serve similar purposes to fraternity and sorority houses. These clubs, however, are older than some national fraternities and their alumni are very active donors.
  
• The Princeton alumni network, and those of many prestigious private schools, is far more tight-knit and useful to its alumni than a Greek alumni network will ever be.
  
• The kids who will be part of Princeton's Class of 2013 are extremely well-resourced, either by their own hard work or socioeconomic privilege. I doubt very little will stop them if they really want to join a Greek organization.
  
• A good number of HS students pick Princeton because the Greek system is not dominant.
  
• President Tighlman is within her rights, as the president of a private university, to do this.This is also part of a larger trend of elite private universities pulling away from Greek Life (see Amherst, Middlebury, Williams, Dartmouth, etc., etc.)

So, why are we still bellyaching about this?

I guess I should go back to using my own search function :) This is the first year I have heard about it from Princeton.

If I was a student, I'd be plenty pissed off that my monies were going for something that 1) is so condescending and discriminatory and 2) obviously isn't working (or they wouldn't have to keep doing it every freaking year).

Forgive the newbie; I have a question.

It was my understanding that in order to bring greek orgs onto a college campus, the college must give approval. If this is the case, why and when did Princeton change its policy?

But comparatively it's such a small amount of money, per student, that goes to sending out these letters or incorporating this into the new student orientation.

I could see why they do it every year, so that they get the message across to the new students. It may sound like a broken record to the rest of us, but the incoming students (their intended audience) are hearing it for the first time. If I remember correctly it's something that's also mentioned during the interviews with the alumni volunteers (if it's brought up by the student).

Maybe I'm a bit biased because I went to a university that was anti-Greek, with an anti-Greek administration as well. It was frustrating sometimes, but at the end of the day it didn't make a lot of difference. I don't see it as condesending or discriminatory - every school makes choices about what groups and organizations it will welcome, and which ones it will resist. Princeton has just made the decision not to welcome Greek life.

ETA: When I was in college, I probably would have been a little more fired up about it. Now though, a few years out of it, I understand where Princeton Greeks would be frustrated. At the same time, I don't quite see it being as big of a deal as I would have when I was 18-21.

I think Wesleyan has gotten more like this over the years - from friends I've had who've attended, they've said that Greek life, while never a major part of campus, has gotten more and more marginalized.

I think it is all about eliminating the eating club's competition.

i wonder if it in anyway has to do with a potential "conflict" of loyalty, i.e., "should i make a donation to the alma mater or to my greek organization?" Eliminate the greek organization, there is one less entity competing for the dollars.

If that was the case, more of Princeton's peer institutions--or more private schools as a whole--would get on that train. Most of those schools aren't really competing against Greek organizations for donation dollars the way that state schools seem to be. It's been my experience, from what I've seen of myself and friends at least, that our loyalty is to our undergraduate insitution as far as donations go, and our sororities and fraternities don't get much more than a $25-50 donation a year, if that. My friends who attended public universities tend to donate less to the school and more to the organization.

I always forget that Wesleyan has a Greek system. I know they had a few co-eds, but I'm not surprised at all from what I know about them.

Just read up on eating clubs - that sounds like so much fun. I see how its existence cuts into greek life - bicker clubs seem to bring money into the university and the social aspect seems to be much like what greek life offers.

But I can also see how bicker clubs can be economically/racially divisive, since it costs more than a meal plan, and may resemble an old-boy's-type network (ie "my mom/dad/sister/cousin was part of XYZ Club and so will I) that racial/economic minorities may not have access to.

Then again I know nothing about Princeton. Is there a "stereotypical" type of person who joins an eating club? It seems like its integral to campus culture and administration doesn't want that to fade/become less favorable.

No. If that was the case then they would try to eliminate the eating clubs too. The alumni will still give money to eating clubs.

It is more about eating clubs vs greeks. The eating clubs are basically fraternities.

Everyone I know who went to Princeton--of all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds--joined an eating club. For some, the costs were comparable to what the campus meal plan would have cost. Some were really inclusive and accepted all types of people, while others were a bit more exclusive.

It's about the same size as the one at my undergrad (about 2-5%). Enough so that you know they're around, but not enough to have any power on campus.

Plus,from what I've heard, there have been a ton of risk management issues with the chapters that have made things even more difficult.

See, if i was the administration trying to reach parents with the message of "greeks bad, other social clubs good," i would use hard numbers and stats of these risk management incidents, not "greeks exclude people and only provide social comfort."

because like greek orgs (and referring to Munchkin03), some eating clubs are pretty exclusive/selective, and others are more all-encompassing. so in that respect they go hand in hand.

They did have approval when they initially came onto the campus. Princeton changed its policy because they are being "politically correct" which is a synonym for jackasses.

In response to another post, yeah it is a small amount of $$ compared with what you pay in tuition there - it's the principle of the thing. Like I said, if it was working, the fraternities and sororities would have died out - instead, we keep hearing about the pledge classes getting bigger and bigger. If the administration were NFL coaches they'd have been fired long ago.

My question is, if the eating clubs are so the be all and end all, why did the Greeks come onto campus in the first place? Or is it like an article I remember reading about Yale - to summarize, the old money, "white shoe" students joined the clubs that had been around forever and the new money/foreign students joined sororities.

I'm not sure if the pledge class sizes are going up at all at Princeton, or whether the numbers have stayed stagnant. I think the size of Greek life on campus has been fairly consistent over the years, although I'm not entirely sure on that.

As to the administration - the Greek Life thing is such a small part of their job that I'm sure that most of the influential alums (including trustees) don't care how they feel about Greek life, or are happy with Greek life's small role. I'll again compare it to my school (a school with a less prestigious reputation, haha)...administration has downplayed Greek life at Boston U for about 15-20 years, and it has had little to no effect on the perception of administration. For the most part, alumni are fine with Greek life being marginalized at the school. Heck, I was extremely involved in Greek life in college (between my chapter and the Interfraternity Council), and although I'd like to see my chapter thrive, the vitality of Greek life will have no impact on how I view the administration.

As for the eating clubs - I've heard the same things as Munchkin (at least as far as Princeton is concerned), in that they attract a wide range of socioeconomic backgrounds.

I think the administration might want to pick someone else to quote since Woodrow Wilson was a fraternity man. as for what they are quoting here, i know personally my fraternity brothers helped introduce me to things i normally wouldn't have consider doing in college (ie. SGA,student legislature and toast masters.....toast masters wasnt for me so i guess 2 out of 3 isnt bad)

i have a feeling both sides need to take a step back and look at the situation from the otherside. i think the greek life missed an oppertunity to work with the administration when they rejected the defered rush. the smart thing would have been trying it for a year or two so they could start to build some bridges with the administration.

LOL to the first part - their bad.

and co-sign on the second part - if i was within the NPC/NIC/IFC system, id advocate for the deferred rush option. I do agree that greek-interested freshmen need time to be unaffiliated college students and experience it, without the disadvantage of rushing as a sophomore or through COB (at schools where formal is the norm).

but this is outside looking in - formal rush works for where it works, dont fix something that isnt broken.

At $45k/yr(tuition, room, and board) do you think Princeton attracts students from a wide range of socioeconomic backgrounds?

They probably don't use the stats because the stats don't back up their cause. Eating clubs have built in bars with tap systems, refrigerated keg rooms and probably have their share of risk management violations.

Well there are the scholarship students as well as those who take out loans, so yeah I do.

Yes, I do. You can't really presume the variety of people who attend a university based on its sticker price; Princeton also has a pretty healthy endowment from which it can offer scholarships and need-based aid.

I was going to say that! He was a Phi Kappa Psi at Hopkins. Too funny that they would quote him... :p

Didn't Princeton (and a couple other Ivies) match Harvard's decision to essentially offer full rides or incredible grant aid to every student? I think it did.

ETA: Princeton's financial aid packages basically eliminates financial barriers to entry: http://www.princeton.edu/admission/f...who_qualifies/

Harvard? There is a model for diversity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/ed...FFI.final.html


Is 1/3 of 8%, considered diversity?

The thing is, that's becoming the case regardless of how selective the school is. I read somewhere years ago that the majority of college freshmen identifying as "Black" are West Indian or African and not African-American. My sister, who attended UF, said that there were far more Caribbean and African students there than kids like us, who could trace their ancestry in the US at least 5-6 generations. So, while Harvard is an easy target for so many reasons, you've got the gun pointed in the wrong direction, bucko.

But, I don't see what that has to do with Princeton's socioeconomic diversity, which is something that the other 7 Ivies and their competitiors are working hard to improve.

Princton is not much different than Harvard, bucko.


I have been to Princeton many times. I don't see too many blacks on campus. The minorities on campus are mostly Asian or Indian.

I think it's funny that you average less than one post a year and yet, when you crawl out of the woodwork, we're supposed to take you seriously.

Ok, I'm lost. What does the racial diversity of the student body have to do with Greek Life at Princeton?

If the student body is not diverse then it is not likely that campus organizations such as eating clubs or greeks will be diverse. It is relevant because the President specifically criticized the greeks for being exclusive.

What's your point? We weren't talking about the number of blacks on campus.

Here I assume by "diverse", you're referring to African-American students, not Asian or South Asian/Indian students. My University, Johns Hopkins, has pretty similar diversity statistics:

Caucasian: 47%
Asian/Pacific Islander: 24%
African-American/Black: 7%
Hispanic/Latino-Latina: 7%
Native American: 1%
Other: 7%
International: 7%
(apply.jhu.edu)

And as referenced in the earlier article, Princeton has 8% Black students, 1/3 of which are considered African-American, not African immigrants. I don't know how many of the black Hopkins students are African-American as opposed to African.

Back on track. I don't know what percentage of JHU Greeks are black, but it is not a huge number. In the fraternities, it is probably similar to 7%. In the NPC sororities, it is less than 7%. I'll use my sorority as a pretty typical example. My sorority had 85 members this spring, of which 2 identified themselves as black. One was from America but (I believe) her parents were Jamaican, and one was African-American, Hispanic and Chinese. If we're looking at other minorities, we had 5 South Asian/Indian women and 9 Asian women. That breaks down to 2.3% black, 5.8% South Asian/Indian and 10.5% Asian.

That is less diverse than the general diversity statistics for the University, but probably very similar to the diversity stats for the women who went through recruitment. We certainly welcome diversity in our sororities, and I have heard sorority women say that they wish their group was more diverse. There is absolutely no prejudice against minority women going through recruitment, and I would go as far to say that they might have an easier time getting a bid because groups want to become more diverse. (As a side note - is that racist against the white students? Who knows. :p)

I don't know why fewer minority women go through recruitment. There are a few groups specifically for minority students, but they're small. Last semester Sigma Omicron Pi and alpha Kappa Delta Phi (the two "Asian-Interest" sororities on campus) had only 31 sisters combined - and some of those women were Caucasian or African-American. The only Latina sorority, Lambda Pi Chi, had only 5 members. The only African-American fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha, had only 5 members. The University used to have chapters of Delta Sigma Theta, Sigma Gamma Rho and Alpha Kappa Alpha , but they are no longer recognized - they chose to give up University recognition in order to recruit outside the student body because they couldn't sustain their numbers. I don't know how many members they have now, but it is not many. In Spring 2008, the last semester they were recognized, the three had only 18 sisters combined. Delta Xi Phi, JHU's only multicultural sorority, had 29 members this Spring, over half of whom I know to be Caucasian (and the rest mostly Asian).

So - a lot of unanswered questions. Even GLOs created specifically for members of certain enthnic groups fall far short of attracting the number of women they should, given how represented those minorities are at the University. Heck, white students represent less than half of the student body at JHU, but the majority of the Greek women are white.

I don't know why this is, but given that our diversity stats and campus culture are pretty similar to Princeton's, I would hazard to guess that they're in a similar situation.

Maybe someone else will have better insight on the reasons why this happens.

ETA: This probably should be in a different thread... it's not really what we were discussing in the first place. But relating it back to the point: I don't think Greek Life is exclusionary to certain ethnic groups. Though minorities are underrepresented in the sororities at my school, it is probably because they also tend not to go through recruitment. Those who do almost always seem to be sought after and placed since the sororities seem to actively seek to become more diverse. If there were a large number of minority women rushing and not being placed/getting heavy cuts, I would see more of an issue.

It is possible they became part of a citywide chapter, which encompasses several schools. Just wanted to clarify that "recruiting outside the student body" does not mean they are recruiting nonstudents.

--->getting back in my lane to let someone who knows better elaborate.

Diversity means more than just blacks and whites. If a campus was half white and half black, I would say that that is NOT diverse. Asians, Hispanics, international students contribute a lot to diversity, too. But really I was addressing the financial diversity of the student body, which only sometimes has racial correlations. I haven't seen the statistics, but I bet the majority of financial aid students at the Ivies are white.

Also, you should try finding an article more recent than 2004. I believe the more generous financial aid policies began after 2004.

What I was told by the Greek Life office is that they were unable to sustain their numbers with Hopkins students alone, so they started recruiting non-Hopkins members. This violates the agreement the school has with the groups (probably for insurance reasons - they can't cover non-students) and the school gave them 18 months to cease and desist. They all chose not to, and were thus de-recognized by the school. They still recruit JHU students, wear their letters, etc. and the school doesn't really mind. But as long as the chapter includes people who are not Hopkins students (whether or not they're college students at other schools) they can't be recognized. I'm not sure if they went city-wide or not.

I believe there is a lot of misconception floating around about Princeton and Greeks. The school is not promoting a message of Greeks bad Social clubs good." The school essentially wants to marginalize and possibly eliminate both systems. The creation of a 4 year college was one step the school is taking in that direction. For the most part many of the eating clubs and certain Greek letter organizations are loosely associated with each other.
I personally think the exclusive argument is kind of inane coming from an exclusive institution but that is another story altogether.

The administration has been pressed before on the policy and the letter sent out is the closest I've seen to a formal stance from the University. Because the policy has been nebulous when GLOs first came to campus approval may have been tacit. As years went by the administration and in particular the Board of Trustees began to disapprove of Greeks and formed a decidedly non-recognition stance. By then many organizations had already been chartered or did not require the University's approval to establish a new charter. Since then, that stance has been held as a tradition. Furthermore, some groups on campus were in favor of deferred rush while others were not but then that created a scenario in which the school would recognize some groups and not others. They did not want to do that.

Bottom line some groups cared more about recognition than others. However, the administration has the perspective of all or nothing. So unless a compromise can be reached or all parties get on the same page, I don't see recognition happening soon. Moreover, since the Trustees (aka pursestrings) are behind the non-recognition and view it as a tradition, it will be very difficult to overturn.

On the topic of socio-economic representation: There is a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds at Princeton. Approximately half pay the full tuition and the other half receive some form of aid. Princeton pioneered the "no-loan" student policy in 2002. Harvard and others followed suit. Because of the no-loan policy many are able to afford Princeton and even graduate virtually debt-free. The eating clubs however are not covered by financial aid and thus students have to take out loans for the cost.

This may be one of the many reasons why some students do not pledge the NPC organizations. Many minorities already don't join eating clubs because of the prohibitively high costs so financing the cost of a sorority as well may discourage them or be viewed as an unnecessary expense. Furthermore, many students may be concerned with balancing the academic stress and sorority responsibilities. The academics are ridiculously rigorous for no apparent reason, so many students especially first generation college students and minorities focus on adjusting to the campus.

Sorry for the long post. Hope that answered many of the questions.

You can't think of any reason for a university to be academically rigorous? For PRINCETON to be academically rigorous?

If that's not what you're looking for, don't go to Princeton. It's not like they pulled some kind of bait-and-switch where they advertise themselves as a laid-back party school and then freshmen are shocked to discover high academic standards.
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