If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?
 

So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.

Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges. However, I do not see a problem with doing physical exercises ie situps/pushups/running etc or screaming/yelling at a pledge. I think that when under emotional and psychological stress, people can go above and beyond what they would under normal circumstances and thus can learn a great deal about themselves. If the pledge can't handle this type of thing, he/she is always free to drop/quit/leave whenever they choose. Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.

And while reading some anti-hazing sites, I can't help but wonder why people are so proud that they were showered with gifts throughout their pledgeship. Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty? Isn't that the problem with Americans these days? Everyone feels like they're entitled to stuff and no one wants to put in the good old fashioned hard work anymore?

Now obviously I think that when people die there is an obvious problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

I am not really here to argue with anyone. However, I would like to know some constructive thoughts as to why people believe hazing is wrong. And remember, I am NOT including binge drinking/paddling etc in my argument b/c I also agree those should not be in any pledge program.

I look forward to an interesting discussion and to all your inputs.

KSUviolet.. I can sense your sarcasm. But I really think that if pledges do pushups, it will make them better people. I mean, think about it... push yourself up from the floor a few times, and you build character and learn more about your Greek organization! And what better way to become friends with someone than to be yelled at by them! Even Obama couldn't write that stuff into a bill. This is genius.

:rolleyes:

LOL @ KSU and ASTalumna

Why are your first two posts in hazing threads? Anyway...as stated previously, there are tons of threads on this topic. I'm bored, though, so here's some input.

How about doing what your founders envisioned and following your official pledge/new member program?

I laughed at this, considering your post in the "Does Your Chapter Haze" thread. Apparently, you agree with paddling in that thread.

They are probably proud because they're showing what they're worth AS MEMBERS. You can pledge your ass off, but if you're not doing anything as a member, it means nothing. I can't tell you how many people (in my organization and others) were bad-ass pledges, then fell off the face of the Earth after getting letters. I'd rather have someone who proves himself by helping out the organization rather than by exhibiting the most emotional/psychological scarring.

The problem is that the little things eventually turn into big things. "We're just yelling at them" turns into "we're just yelling and having them do pushups" turns into "we're just yelling, making them do pushups, and swatting them ONE time" and so on.

Read the hundreds of threads in the Risk Management forum. They provide some interesting insight.

I believe this argument will go on for quite some time.

There are countless examples of new member education programs that do not involve hazing. I agree with knight_shadow:

msl2008, have you considered creating a point system (excluding hazing) that incorporates your organizations central values? For example, the chapter I advise uses a point system that awards a pledge points for:

1) academic achievement (A's or B's on tests, 2.8+ GPA, etc.)
2) community service (number of hours, etc.)
3) participation in intramurals (spectating/supporting, participating as an athlete, etc.)
4) participation in other student organizations (leadership roles, membership, etc.)
5) recruitment of future members (providing names, bringing interested men out to events, etc.)
6) knowledge of history/lore/songs (grades on quizzes and final exam)
7) participation in chapter, pledge class, or University events.
8) Chapter/Brotherhood vote that rank the pledges in last week of pledging.
9) Financial responsibility (payment of dues early or on time)

Each section has a minimum point requirement and there is an overall minimum that must be met to be considered for initiation. As you can see, this system still requires a large effort on their part to to get the points, but all while being a GOOD member. The highest number of points gets the lowest roll number in the pledge class.

Really? Here are a just few examples to prove you wrong. The members may not have been leaving the organization, but clearly the members aren't afraid to use assault (sometimes lethal) to get their point across.

Fayetteville State University robes frat beating complaints

Fraternity members plead no contest to beating pledge at Florida A&M University

3 Plead Guilty To EKU Fraternity Hazing

Have you considered that maybe it wasn't because of their legacy status, but instead because of their character, dedication, and personality?

Again, you are wrong.

Chico State's "A Fraternity Hazing Gone Wrong"

Fraternity Man Guilty of Hazing in a Death

msl2008, have you considered creating a point system (excluding hazing) that incorporates your organizations central values? For example, the chapter I advise uses a point system that awards a pledge points for:

1) academic achievement (A's or B's on tests, 2.8+ GPA, etc.)
2) community service (number of hours, etc.)
3) participation in intramurals (spectating/supporting, participating as an athlete, etc.)
4) participation in other student organizations (leadership roles, membership, etc.)
5) recruitment of future members (providing names, bringing interested men out to events, etc.)
6) knowledge of history/lore/songs (grades on quizzes and final exam)
7) participation in chapter, pledge class, or University events.
8) Chapter/Brotherhood vote that rank the pledges in last week of pledging.
9) Financial responsibility (payment of dues early or on time)

Each section has a minimum point requirement and there is an overall minimum that must be met to be considered for initiation. As you can see, this system still requires a large effort on their part to to get the points, but all while being a GOOD member. The highest number of points gets the lowest roll number in the pledge class.

Ok...assuming you do use the point system right? How does that show any type of brotherhood. That just means that you have time to give to the organization. Good, but why should I trust or treat this person any differently then anyone I could've met in any random club?


Again, you are wrong.

Chico State's "A Fraternity Hazing Gone Wrong"

Fraternity Man Guilty of Hazing in a Death[/quote]

These 2 deaths aren't b/c of pushups. One is b/c of water intoxication and one is b/c he was basically beaten to death.

KSUviolet, I voted for Obama back in November b/c I thought he was better than McCain. However, I do not think we need the bailout or healthcare for everyone. What we need is to let people be responsible for themselves. I am sick and tired of Americans constantly complaining about everything and anything like little kids. If you bought a house you can't afford. Tough. It was your choice. If you didn't save anything for retirement. Tough. The next generation is probably going to have to take care of themselves b/c Medicare and Social Security (which is a giant Ponzi Scheme btw) so as Americans we should learn to be responsible and take responsibility for our actions. Likewise, if you're truly an adult at 18, I would think you would know right from wrong so I would assume you know when to quit.

And as I said, this thread is assuming hazing involves pushups/situps whatever so please don't show me things about getting beaten to death or water poisoning b/c I'm already sold on those.

I like to compare it to a football practice or any sport for that matter. If you're hydrated and pushed yet people are more careful, what exactly is the problem? I agree things get out of hand. However, let's assume they don't. Would your thoughts be any different? Say those kids never died? Would we still be having this discussion?

How does someone whooping your ass show brotherhood? I've said this several times before -- the brotherhood that I've felt in my (almost) 7 years in my organization has come from casual interactions with brothers. The events of my pledge program were interesting for stories, but did not determine how my life as a Greek panned out.
LOL I think you missed the sarcasm in her post...

Like I said in my earlier post, the "light" hazing is usually a gateway for more severe activity.

We can't assume that hazing doesn't get out of hand because it does. If people didn't get hurt and die, we wouldn't have hazing laws popping up. 18- to 21-year-olds are going to act silly in general, so giving them the option to have a hazing free-for-all isn't smart.

Knight shadow beat me to the question ... How do push-ups and sit-ups prove brotherhood more more than living your organizations values (example of the point system)? I find that sisterhood (and probably fraternal brotherhood) is better created through participation in organization events and interaction with members doing everyday things like going to the library instead of making a pledge do meaningless things like run laps while being yelled at.

Okay, I know that there are lots of discussions on this elsewhere, but I'm going to go ahead and jump in and basically repeat (with a little modification) what I said in one of those discussions (called Hazing Works!).

Before I offer my $0.02, I'll state for the record that I do not advocate hazing and that I support my fraternity's anti-hazing initiatives. What I say has more to do with thinking about replacements for hazing than supporting hazing.

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

What do you hope to gain by making your NMs do pushups, chores, laps?

Our NM program (as I believe all official NM programs do) has a purpose for each required section.

-- Interviews with active sisters: Learn more about the active sisters within your organization.
-- Candidate Class Project: Develop a candidate class philanthropy, while learning leadership and planning an event of your own. Good for management and cultivating the values of my organization
-- Quizzes and Final Exam (which can be retaken as many times as need be): learn the fundamentals of the organization
-- Sexual Assualt and Alcohol Education Classes
-- Pledge Retreat: bonding with actives and candidates.
-- etc.

How does demeaning your NMs achieve the ideals and objectives of your organization?

That's why I'm anti-hazing: not just because it's demeaning and dangerous, but because it accomplishes nothing towards making your NM a human being worthy of your organization's letters.

The OP made very clear that he is not talking about beating up on pledges.

mls2008 - Are you sure that you joined a Greek organization and not the army? :)

I can understand a need for what you may call non-harmful hazing for certain organizations (sports teams, military, etc.) because they serve the organizational standards of having a physically strong body but to my limited knowledge, most recognized Greek organizations prefer to focus on values outside of a member's physical ability.

Whereas most collegiate Greek organizations focus on values such as strong mind and service to community, why do you feel the need to test a new members brawn? Large biceps and running laps do nothing to further the organization's goals where study hours, philanthropic participation and perhaps new member quizzes better help to reach the organizations ideals.

Instead of requiring physical tasks and yelling at new members to "prove their worth", why couldn't your members prove their worthiness by donating # hours to a philanthropy or by achieving a pledgeclass GPA greater than 3.5/4.0?

Whatever any of you think about hazing the fact remains that if you haze your university will shut you down. Many of you just can't seem to understand that.

I think everyone understands that's a possibility (in some places more than others). Many just choose to ignore the law/university policy where this is concerned.

Hazing hasn't become an issue in recent years due to the morality of it all. I wish I could say our organizations were all so self-conscious regarding such moral issues. Hazing became bad juju because of the liability issues involved with it. That's why when you look at your organization's policy as to what constitutes hazing, you have some odd things there, e.g., scavenger hunts.

Be that as it may, the law is what the law is and our organization's and school's policies are what they are. We follow those rules or we suffer the consequences. If we think attaching a moralistic argument to it helps, so be it, the moral argument does fit and it does make sense within the context of today's culture and today's 'more evolved' state of morality.

As for effective alternatives, if you're part of a national organization, I guarantee that your national organization has developed some sort of national programming which you're probably being encouraged to adopt at the chapter level.

Through (most) national programming, we can provide those same rights of passage, engender that same loyalty, basically work to the same ends without placing the futures of our respective organizations (national and local) in jeopardy.

It's hard to discuss that with any particularity though -- national programming, while similar with some organizations is very dissimilar with others (e.g., Sig Ep).

Let's see...it's so simple that everyone overlooks the obvious...

Be truly different than other organizations (of any kind)...and (gasp!) DON'T HAZE your new members! Demonstrate respect (that would be truly original!)

Rule #1: If you couldn't invite your parents, or the parents of the potential new member to witness what is going on, then it is hazing.

Rule #2: If there is any confusion, see Rule #1.

This is yet another example (MC outlined it very well) of Guys And Girls Are Different. Being a girl, I'm not about to tell a guy what works or doesn't work for his fraternity.

I can agree with the fact that males and females are different. I do, however, believe that they can be taught the same things without hazing. I know that there are "rites of passage" that men sometimes feel they need to overcome. But why can't it be done in a constructive way? And why can't pledges and brothers alike participate in these activities?

For example: I was on a swim team for years. Eventually, they started having a retreat once a year. One time, we decided to go camping (in Vermont in January!). The catch: We were split randomly into groups of 3. We were given a map, a compass, and a walkie. On the map were 4 marked locations (firewood, tents, water, campsite). Each group had to hike, find each location, and bring each item to the campsite. There were 6 large logs of firewood on a sled, 2 tents, and a large container of water. With only 3 people in each group, it was probably one of the most challenging things that I've done. By the end (6 hours later) groups were helping each other, and everyone felt like they accomplished something (together).

If you're going to build brotherhood, why are you excluding the BROTHERS from these activities? I don't see why the few weeks of pledging is the only time that people are challenged. If you're doing something constructive, have everyone participate. THAT'S how you build a unified fraternity. Not by exerting your "power" over someone else by having them do pushups.

Exactly. My brother is a good-looking kid, who's on the Dean's List, who works hard, and who would probably give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. He didn't play football cuz he probably would have been crushed. He's just not built for it. Are you telling me you'd turn him away because he couldn't do 50 pushups while you screamed in his face?

I find it entertaining that some fraternity chapters will hold rush events, accept new members (or pledges) based on their grades and how they get along with the rest of the brothers... but then during pledging, they yell at them, segregate them, and the only thing that determines whether they'll become a brother is if they can clean the house, do pushups, and get bitched at without quitting. Makes sense.

All of the point sections pertain directly to personal development and increasing maturity appropriate for one's age. Five of the nine sections involve direct interaction with brothers and their fellow pledges. While doing those five items (community service, intramurals, chapter functions, etc.), brotherly bonds are formed and strengthened.

The same question could be asked of you regarding someone you've yelled at and scared into doing any sort of physical activity. When did brotherhood change from confidence, trustworthiness, and support to physical fitness, servitude, and displays of (non-existent) superiority? From my viewpoint, someone who fulfills all of the obligations in my OP are the prime example of what it means to be a good brother.

You're right. However, please note that the water intoxication took place while the pledges were doing physical activities (push ups). But I wasn't addressing that issue. I was proving your statement wrong from the original post:

The few examples I provided easily proved otherwise. Members don't only die from over-intoxication or accidents. At times, they suffer injuries (or death) at the hands of their "brothers".

I do too. I hope I made that clear. I'm simply saying that I think the successful alternatives, for males at least, don't ignore some of the reasons hazing occurs to begin with.

At the risk of taking this too far off, I think that maybe this is a situation where, while recognizing that males and females are different, you're not recognizing how. Aside from what I said earlier about "proving themselves" (and let's face it -- for lots of males, rightly or wrongly, that means primarily proving themselves physically), this gets at a different conversation we've had numerous times here at GC. Most fraternities with which I'm familiar treat pledges (or whatever term they use) differently from brothers. It's not like the NPC, where new members are treated in many if not most respects like sisters. In my experience, fraternities typically do not consider a pledge to be a brother until, toward the end of the pledge period, the chapter votes to initiate him and then in fact does initiate him.

This doesn't mean that a good chapter isn't going to provide ample opportunity for pledges and brothers to do things together. But in most fraternities, they're not likely to act like a pledge is a brother either.

Kevin is right -- I think most fraternities have tried to create national programs that work to the same end in a manner consistant with the fraternity's ethos/culture.

And 33girl is right -- fraternities are from Mars, sororities are from Venus. ;)

As with most things, I don't think this is about "male or female" at all.

Certain practices existed for reasons of earning one's place and bonding. It's simply the case that these practices were taken to the extreme and the concept of "hazing" has become synonymous with "pledging" and other rites of passage.

Rites of passage are extremely important to both males and females. There are rites of passage in many if not most voluntary and involuntary memberships. The disagreement is regarding which rites of passage are deemed "hazing." This disagreement is not along gender lines, as far as I'm concerned.

Imagine college students only doing things that they could do in front of their parents.

Imagine organizations only engaging in practices that can be witnessed by nonmembers.

To DrPhil's disappointment, I'm going to follow-up on this boy/girl discrepancy.

MysticCat, are you suggesting (by the bolded (emphasis mine)) that boys have fewer rites of passage than girls, or that boys need the rites moreso than girls? The first time I read your post, I thought you meant the former (that boys have fewer RoP than girls), but now I'm thinking you meant the latter. I don't know that it matters either way, but I find it interesting that you differentiate between the genders.

I'd agree with a lot of what you say. My invocation of gender is more about such rites being different, not about whether it's hazing for females but not hazing for males or the like.

With the caveat that I was typing of the top of my head, without consulting a study, I think I was really thinking more the former, although I know I have read articles suggesting both. And maybe I focused on males because I am one and that's what I'm familiar with.

Sure, there are some rites of passages: Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, Quinceañeras, confirmations, even Deb Balls. But many of these occur at an early enough age (13 or earlier-15) that they don't really function as marking the transition to adulthood, even if they say they do. Of course, fraternity/sorority initiation doesn't so much mark entrance to adulthood as acceptance into a brotherhood/sisterhood. But I think such an initiation carries some significance for making the new member a better man or woman.

Is this making any sense?

Ok...maybe I forgot to post what I meant when I said physical punishments. There's just too much stuff to cover it all in a few posts. But anyway, I am not referring to you yourself doing pushups to prove something. That's why fraternities have pledge classes right? You're supposed to bond and build relationships with your pledge class, not yourself. It's supposed to be a teamwork building experience.

So instead of you doing something for yourself, you have to work as a team. A team is only as strong as their weakest link. So say the Pledge Educator gives an assignment ie learn the chapter's history and you will have a test in one week. One week comes along and they take a paper test and just say one guy fails. Ok, big whoop right? maybe i'll get kicked out of pledging or whatnot. but if instead of a paper test you line them up and ask them, you get the same result. the person who doesn't know the info will still not know the info. however, this time instead of him being in trouble, the PE tells his pledge brother to drop and give him 20 pushups. this goes down and down the line. you might be willing to take blame if you messed up yourself and don't see a point. but wouldn't you feel different if someone else was doing something for YOUR mistake? i know i sure as hell would feel bad.

there a lot of sayings that people only reach 10% of their potential or something like that and i believe it's true. how can you truly achieve anything great without pushing yourself? if you're just showered with positive reinforcement 24/7, you won't ever think there's anything wrong or anything you can do better and you become less humble b/c the only thing people say to you are good things.

now for all those people who say pledging gets out of hand. i realize this and totally accept it. please don't bring this into the equation in addition to the beatings or water torture.

but anyway, if pledging was centered around things such as the one i posted don't you think they could have a possibility of working? they work in sports and the army don't they? but of course the difference there is that those are run by adults and college kids could never do that. but personally i don't think hazing is ever going to be eliminated no matter what. if it were that easy, it would be that easy to eliminate gangs too wouldn't it? but that's another topic.

and for the ppl who say that hazing is against the law, obviously everyone knows that. but lots of things are against the law that people do and the government can't do anything about till it's too late. so let's be realistic here.

I really dislike the comparison of "well the military does it for bonding and training" as these are two completely different groups. One you can get shot at, and the other one you're doing shots.

I'm still at a loss at how treating people like crap and yelling at them makes them better members. I'd rather someone have the testicles or ovaries to stand up to that nonsense. I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, why pledge people who you have to humiliate, why not pledge people who already have the qualities you look for?

for ksuviolet, have you ever broken a law? drinking b4 21 or smoking weed? isn't this the same concept? i mean if it's not going to stop, might as well try to make it safer so people don't die right?

vandalsquirrel...where do you get the treating people like crap argument? yelling at them is to push them harder. and in regards to pledging people who already have the qualities you look for, that is very hard. lots of times people put on a front or exaggerate who they are to look good for other people. only under pressure do people's real personalities come out. and i agree that military and greeks are two different groups. but building a bond can be the same can't it? isn't that what greeks try to do, build brotherhood? and who better to model that after then the military?

No.

and

No.

Yelling at people and getting in their face, instead of treating them like adults or human beings with respect = treating them like crap to me.

Under pressure people's real personalities do not always come out. Maybe it is because I studied psychology and sociology in college, but that isn't true. If I am under pressure because I have finals and my father died, that isn't my true personality, it is a situation, and one that I can't control. Someone acting out "Dazed and Confused" covering me in condiments and sending me through a car wash, and treating me poorly is something I can control, and under pressure I'd get up and walk away because I have self worth and self esteem. Those are two qualities I want in my sisters, and I wouldn't want sisters who a) treat others that way or b) let themselves be treated that way.

one of my favorite quotes:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King Jr.

the way i take that quote to mean is that everyone can be happy and nice and giggity when things are going well. however, when the going gets tough, only in those tough times can you tell who your true friends are. example: your friends are going out with you to a party and you all have fun and are partying. everyone is having a good time. you get drunk and can't stand up and your friends are all hooking up with girls. the one that ditches the girl is the one who is your true friend b/c he took the harder path. relate to pledging: you're out pledging on a friday night with your pledge brothers while your friends are all partying. you didn't study your information so everytime you get something wrong you pledge brother has to do 20 pushups. his arms are tired from having done say 100 pushups in a one hour span. don't you feel guilty for having him do it but at the same time respect that he's out here with you doing pushups for you while your other friends are partying and having fun? which is the easier path? giving up your friday night to be with your pledge brothers doing pushups or partying and having fun?

First of all, when Martin Luther King said that, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean, "Allow people to humiliate you, make you feel stupid, and force you to do thing against your will, just so that you can feel accepted and be their friends."

Your friend helping you out when you're drunk at a party doesn't mean that he's taking the "harder path"... he's being a friend. If my friend is falling down drunk, I'm going to take care of him/her, no matter who's trying to hook up with me. That shouldn't be a difficult choice for anyone.

You're doing pledge activities on a Friday night. Your friends are out partying. Whether you're doing pushups or coloring pretty pictures, what's the difference? You still have to be there and not party. I don't understand this argument.

And MysticCat... I didn't mean to imply that you thought hazing was ok for guys. I completely understand where you're coming from. I can understand the example that you gave earlier, with the Order of the Arrow and Ordeal. I think that things like this can be an excellent test of someone's strength. And there are obviously differences between this, and joining a fraternity.

Order of the Arrow is through Boy Scouts of America, and I would imagine that these things are supervised in some way. With fraternities, on each campus, you have 18-22 year-old college students supervising 18-22 year-old college students.

With the Order of the Arrow, the people partaking in this are in Boy Scouts. They have been trained through the organization to deal with things like this. They weren't just thrown out into the woods by themselves to learn how to survive on their own.

And with fraternities and pledging, many times, the process is not explained. When hazing activities occur, pledges don't know what's coming at them until they're in the middle of it. There are young men who wish to join a fraternal organization that boasts a reputation of building men of character, emphasizing good academics, involving help with numerous philanthropic projects, and aiding in the development of social skills... and instead, they are bombarded with physical challenges and mental anguish that they weren't anticipating.

I can appreciate the idea of having people work together, solve problems, and get out of hard situations as a group. However, I don't think that ridiculous physical requirements and being yelled at constantly will help to build better fraternity (or sorority) members. I'm not implying that you were saying this, MysticCat. I'm just saying it in general.

As a Boy Scout parent and an involved volunteer with my GLO, when they showed us the Order of the Arrow video, my first thought was "This is hazing and there's no way my son is going to do this". My ex-husband, who is not Greek, whispered to me "I hope he doesn't want to do this because I am not comfortable with this at all." To date, my son has been invited to membership 3 times and has declined. I haven't said a word to him, but I'm secretly glad. I'm also glad he has no interest in doing the Polar Bear. Somehow, I'm not convinced that *my* almost 13 year old is up to handling the Ordeal or the Polar Bear. He already gets sick after every camp out because he doesn't sleep!

mls2008 -

You're making a huge assumption that brotherhood can only be created through joint physical difficulties between the members. You are having the trouble connecting the arguments since it is only the current, un-initiated pledgeclass that is forced into this bonding. Your particular example becomes hazing when it excludes the upperclassmen (including the pledge educator) since they are not participating in the "punishment" for a member failing to learn their s**t. And ... to go a step further, by the upperclassmen not participating (by doing push-ups too) in this ritual, you don't have brotherhood, you have a group of people (pledges) that hate the initiated members for inflicting this punishment upon them creating cliques within your organization that then tear apart the brotherhood you are trying so desperately to build.

Finally, as to your example about helping an intoxicated brother following a party, I personally would be less willing to help a person, no matter his letters or affiliation if that person was a total d**k to me. What goes around comes around and if you want help from your brothers, perhaps you should help them instead of yell at them and require them to do physical punishments.

So what's the difference between this and a football coach yelling at you or a drill sargeant yelling at you. I think that for some, being hazed can be a great experience if done correctly. For others, not so much so. There's two ways to look at everything. Sometimes I wonder if hazing was legal, if there would be so many people against it. Or if no one died from it. Would we be having this discussion then?

And KSUviolet, please post something more constructive instead of "oh, your argument is stupid and you fail." please explain the reasoning behind that. just b/c you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I see what you're saying.

I'd agree that 13 is probably too young for OA. But I'm sorry you consider it hazing, because I can assure you it is not, not by any reasonable definition of that term. (Sorry if I'm being too blunt.) No way would the BSA approve of it if it were. Like I said, it was a pivotal event in my youth, and there was not a single second of it where I thought I was being hazed then or, looking back on it now, where I would consider anything done to be hazing.

Of course, what the government can do about it after the fact is convict you of a crime. Or, should a hazing victim (or his survivors) bring a civil suit, award lots of money in damages.

Just trying be realistic.

What football coach or drill sergeant would ONLY yell at you? You know just as well as I do that the yelling is accompanied by physical activity. The physical training and yelling are necessary and used in the field and, if not done, could possibly result in injury. This is not the case in GLOs.

I think the fact that it is overseen by adults helps. I don't see the day of service as hazing. I think the "not speaking" and the camping out alone are the iffy parts. I will say that I did appreciate that they were upfront about what the Ordeal involved. Most of the boys in our troop receive an invitation to OA as soon as they get their First Class, which is usually at age 11/12. This troop is an Eagle producing troop. They encourage achieving Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class in your first year. Star after 6 months, Life after 6 more months and then they may take a year or two to finish Eagle. My son had just turned 11 when he crossed over so by 12, had achieved Tenderfoot and Second Class and had one requirement left for First Class. He has all the requirements for Star now, except the Board of Review and he'll be 13 next week. In fact, he'll probably have his BoR on Monday, the day before his 13th birthday. So yeah, they're on a fast track. If he decides some day to do OA, I won't stop him, but I don't know that *I* will feel totally comfortable that weekend! I just kept thinking during that video that if a fraternity didn't allow their members to talk and made them sleep alone in a remote area, it would be considered hazing. The video made a point to say that it IS not hazing like fraternities do, which kind of got my goat too..lol.